College or work?

[Speed Weed]

21 minutes ago, lmeneses said:

Well, not if you do it right. Get high SAT scores and grades in highschool, and you don't pay squat for college. My brother is studying aerospace engineering for free at USF rn. Never had to pay a dime, and he gets money back. 

I am jealous man. I don't have scholarships and I don't high SAT/ACT score either, and let's alone my highschool GPA which is below 3.0. I am planning to transfer to USF after I finish my community college transfer credits. I did talk to one of the USF adviser at my community college, and he said Computer Science tuition will be $400 per credit for in state students, and for out state students will be $700 per credit. In my situation, I have to get a full time job for 2 to 3 years so I can have enough money to pay for my master degree . I hate my life. 

[dizmo]

13 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Those jobs are few and far between, and typically are in areas where the cost of living is substantially higher. Most people don't come out ahead.

 

Most high paying jobs that higher fresh out of college only pay as much as they do because of the cost of living where said jobs are. What few that aren't, not a single person on this forum has a chance of getting.

That doesn't negate the other gains you get from going to school, such as networking and meeting employers. That's how my friend got hired at the power company; the recruiter took a liking to him, and he was hired as soon as he graduated. You can also get placements depending on the course; I've had friends get very well paying jobs through those as well.

 

You're completely incorrect about assuming what people can and can't do on this forum. Kind of surprised you'd say something so naive.

 

[NickPickerWI]

7 minutes ago, Yoinkerman said:

If you treat college like a job, you will get 99% more out of it than if you treat it like high school.  I know that's hard when you're young and invincible.

That was a hard lesson I had to learn, and it's why I failed the first time and crushed college the second time I went. I put it into my head that "this will transform my life, and I will get out of where I am and be something more."

 

If you approach college as "this is going to change my life," and you give it everything you have, it opens doors other people don't have. If you treat it like "this is just the next step," I can almost guarantee you'll be disappointed by it.

 

15 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Just saying that going to college puts you above someone that didn't, so you should go, is bad advice.

 

I sit next to guys older than me, more experienced than me, that have the same job that I have, no degree. I get paid more. I get bigger raises. I get the big projects. I get the hard jobs, and the bosses know I'll do them right. I go talk in front of the management and lead meetings. I get sent to customers. And it's not the degree. It's who I learned to be getting that degree. I have doors open to me that some of my co-workers never will. And that feels...I can't describe it. Somewhere above wonderful.

 

Employers don't like to tell you this, but people who go even to a 2-year college get bumped up their list, and it doesn't have anything to do with what you studied or where. It has to do with "you went out of your way, you did something you didn't have to do, you dedicated to it, you struggled through the rough classes and teachers, you didn't blow off the easy classes." Those are all traits that translate into things employers want to see. You are basically showing them you DID, not trying to convince them that you COULD.

 

31 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Not without incurring a substantial amount of debt

 

33 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

The catch all go to college advice is horrible advice.

I do not agree with the "college is a waste and you'll rack up bills" philosophy. It depends on the person, and really depends on where they're at in maturity. I completely agree with you that it isn't for everyone. Or, more adequately, I don't think everyone is ready for it from the jump. Obviously, you have a disdain for college. That doesn't mean that since you don't find value in it, there's no value in it for everyone...that would be a double-standard, and sort of the inverse of the argument you're making. The catch-all "don't go to college" advice is horrible advice.

 

It feels shitty having to pay $650 a month in student loan bills, sure. It feels great to be a guy who grew up on food stamps, now being able to have three Samsung Galaxy phones, two cars, three awesome computers, a PS4 with a whole bunch of games, a nice apartment, two dogs and three cats, and to have set up all of my bills on auto-deduct...then have $2000 left over every two weeks to play with and the energy to use. And to be happy doing what I do, and believe in what I'm doing, and who I'm doing it for. And to have spent 2 years in a tech school to get there.

 

That student loan cost gets washed out if you find the right field and the right pay.

 

32 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

or working an area with a substantially higher cost of living.

 

I don't agree with the "high paying jobs equate to higher cost of living in larger areas" argument, either. Your pay scales based on the area you live in, that's part of how cost of living and economy works. My $63k annual job would pay $80k even in suburbs in my area. In California, it pays $130k. Higher in New York. In Kentucky, it pays $53k. Same qualifications. Completely scaled costs of living.

 

[Speed Weed]

I hate my life. Poor af. No scholarships. No good SAT/ACT score. Low highschool GPA. I hope my dream of winning a 1 million lottery ticket come true. 

[Drak3]

9 minutes ago, Comic_Sans_MS said:

Idk what that means.

In short, jobs not labor work. Teaching, call centers, office work, etc.

 

9 minutes ago, Comic_Sans_MS said:

If you get a Certificate IV in a relevant thing to the job you want, how does that not set you aside from that guy who finished high school?

What separates you from the 12 other people wanting the same job, with the same qualification?

That cert isn't going to help you elsewhere. If you have no work experience, they'll automatically say no. Odds are, you're still not going to out earn me if you get the job AND not have a higher cost of living. That's also assuming that employers only look at education as an indication for merit and experience in a field, they don't.

 

Whereas with years of work history, most employers will actually consider training me after our interview. I've beaten out fresh college graduates, with business degrees and marketing degrees, for a job in marketing, simply for the fact that I've had the most work experience and demonstrated that I have actual work ethic.

2 minutes ago, NickPickerWI said:

It depends on the person

And for most people, going to college is not a net positive over not going. An exceptional few come out far ahead. Some come out ahead of the curve. But most people spend tens of thousands to find that the 100K/year jobs they were told were plentiful are filled and they're highly unqualified for, and end up getting jobs that make less than I do now, while being in debt.

[Speed Weed]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

And for most people, going to college is not a net positive over not going. An exceptional few come out far ahead. Some come out ahead of the curve. But most people spend tens of thousands to find that the 100K/year jobs they were told were plentiful are filled and they're highly unqualified for, and end up getting jobs that make less than I do now, while being in debt.

What is your major and how much debt are you in? I am probably going to be in student debt too before getting my master. 

[Drak3]

Just now, DaPhuc said:

What is your major and how much debt are you in? I am probably going to be in student debt too before getting my master. 

I didn't go to college. I make $40K a year (as of last year), cost of living where I live is $25K, and my income is growing. I'll likely make 46-48K this year.

[comicsansms]

28 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

What separates you from the 12 other people wanting the same job, with the same qualification?

That cert isn't going to help you elsewhere. If you have no work experience, they'll automatically say no. Odds are, you're still not going to out earn me if you get the job AND not have a higher cost of living. That's also assuming that employers only look at education as an indication for merit and experience in a field, they don't.

No, the cert helps. You cannot automatically get high paid job from a cert, but it show that you have an understanding of the job, whereas if you just left high school you have nothing. TAFE courses are much more flexible than Uni - you can do it part time, and it's more affordable (and often free), so you don't end up with a higher cost of living. I am not sure what you are saying the alternative is.

Quote

Whereas with years of work history, most employers will actually consider training me after our interview. I've beaten out fresh college graduates, with business degrees and marketing degrees, for a job in marketing, simply for the fact that I've had the most work experience and demonstrated that I have actual work ethic.

And for most people, going to college is not a net positive over not going. An exceptional few come out far ahead. Some come out ahead of the curve. But most people spend tens of thousands to find that the 100K/year jobs they were told were plentiful are filled and they're highly unqualified for, and end up getting jobs that make less than I do now, while being in debt.

If you finish high school, you do not magically get work history if you leave. If you have work experience in the field, of course training is fine, because you have an understanding of the job. The way you present in an interview is important, maybe those students didn't have an understanding of the internals of marketing (Not all instutions are good, or you don't have to understand how to apply your gained knowledge to pass). 

 

The thing is, you are just saying that because you have work experience, you have a leg up over someone with no work experience - Which I completely agree with. But how does someone with no experience end up getting a job? They need experience.

 

Will the entry level version of the job you want to get hire you, if you have no experience, and another person has just finished a TAFE course, showing that they have an understanding of the field? It's usually going to go with the other person.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Comic_Sans_MS said:

The way you present in an interview is important, maybe those students didn't have an understanding of the internals of marketing

The entirety of my interview is that my end goal is maximizing my income by way of making myself a valuable asset to anyone that pays me.

 

3 minutes ago, Comic_Sans_MS said:

But how does someone with no experience end up getting a job? They need experience

Entry level job. By the time most people are done with college, someone that went to work immediately after high school isn't going to be worse off unless they're exceptionally lazy people. The job market isn't there to support everyone and their dog going through college. Hell, most college graduates are destined for jobs that they're theoretically overqualified for but will suck at because they were conned with the "Go to college, make a better life for yourself" propaganda that's become ever present.

 

2 minutes ago, Comic_Sans_MS said:

If you finish high school, you do not magically get work history if you leave, and if you have work experience in the field

No, but while you're busy blowing money on a risky investment, I'm making work history.

 

Well specifically I'm making one hell of a career for myself. Most other people are making work history.

[captain_to_fire]

1 hour ago, aki adaki said:

And those of you grads, are you happy you attended? 

I'll have to ignore what everyone has said and share mine. What are you most passionate about? For me it has always been medicine since I was a child that's why even if it's difficult, I took up a degree in life sciences and now I'm a M1 in med school. Am I happy? As M1 I'd say it's a struggle since you have to study everyday and for the most part I'm sleep deprived and binge drinking three to four espresso shots. But I know once I became board certified, I'll be extremely satisfied. Books are expensive though. As for tuition, it varies from country to country and I'd say tuition is not an issue for me in med school ($2K/semester). I'm sure @Nicnac and @RorzNZ can share similar or different experiences.

 

How I wish though I my undergrad degree is pharmacy. Even if I didn't go to med school, I can work as a community, manufacturing or hospital pharmacist. 

[NickPickerWI]

6 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

The job market isn't there to support everyone and their dog going through college. Hell, most college graduates are destined for jobs that they're theoretically overqualified for but will suck at because they were conned with the "Go to college, make a better life for yourself" propaganda that's become ever present.

You really have a piss-poor perspective. Reading your posts, you're coming off like some misguided spiteful guy who envies the people who went to college, so you just want to crap all over what it stands for, because "for the few that come out far ahead," as in the many, it's not fair. I've had this argument with people like you before, and I know I can't change your mind.

 

Feel and believe what you want. But please, before you make generalizations, start rooting your arguments in fact - you're offending me directly by saying what you're saying about the best decision I've made in my life. Most of your arguments are in opposition to hard facts, and I'm getting tired of it. If you're going to approach this argument in spite, then leave the argument, please.

 

You're being The Verge, building a $2000 gaming PC right now.

[Techicolors]

college will help build some connections as well as internships. i'm not sure if companies offer internships for self-taught or non-students but normally they will set up networking with schools or recruit at career fairs. and yeah, as someone who is going to college, it's not bad. i've met a lot of great people, and lots of opportunities to branch out. however the classes could be better and the school system can get parasitic. and of course, tuition

 

but yes, college isn't the only option. you can take up a trade, those jobs will be around for a long while. i believe most trades will have paid apprenticeships, with pretty good starting pay

 

and going to the self-taught route. this is mostly common in technology sector, particularly software development. most will just go with web development as it's one of the easiest fields to break into

[comicsansms]

31 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

The entirety of my interview is that my end goal is maximizing my income by way of making myself a valuable asset to anyone that pays me.

Yeah, that's how everyone should do it, but that doesn't mean people are good at it.

Quote

Entry level job. By the time most people are done with college, someone that went to work immediately after high school isn't going to be worse off unless they're exceptionally lazy people. The job market isn't there to support everyone and their dog going through college. Hell, most college graduates are destined for jobs that they're theoretically overqualified for but will suck at because they were conned with the "Go to college, make a better life for yourself" propaganda that's become ever present.

 

No, but while you're busy blowing money on a risky investment, I'm making work history.

In a society, where over 61% of the population has at least a Cert III, getting post-secondary education is a requirement these days. Not having anything behind your name with severely impact your ability to enter the workforce.

 

The people who I went through high-school with (Class of 2017), either got a job because they knew someone (Literally all the customer support staff at Aussie Broadband), are a waitress/waiter, or go to TAFE or Uni (Most of the Uni students are in Melbourne, because Federation Gippsland doesn't provide much confidence for potential employers).

 

 

EDIT: To rephrase what I said about Federation University Gippsland - Employers don't look at what Uni you went to, just they need confidence in you as a person. Going to a small independent Uni can be harder on you, because they cannot afford the resources that bigger Unis have.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Comic_Sans_MS said:

getting post-secondary education is a requirement these days.

That's nothing more than propaganda, especially in the US.

 

2 minutes ago, Comic_Sans_MS said:

Not having anything behind your name with severely impact your ability to enter the workforce

Not really, most work in the US can easily be done without a college education.

[Evanair]

If you're in the US, and don't have a record, go into the military. Get a rating that's transferable to the outside world (there aren't my jobs out there for missile techs for instance) and avoid IT, and you'll get college paid for when you're out. You also get free college while you're in. 

 

It'll also kick your ass into gear, prepare you in 4 years with life experience and work ethic that people your age won't have. 

 

The only problem with it is some HR people view view military service as a liability and wont hire you if it's on your resume, especially in silicon valley

[Scheer]

My wife did her associates working part time, then bachelors working full time. It worked for her, and she wouldn't have done it any other way.

 

I absolutely hated college, had a full ride and I dropped out after the first year. Partially because my now wife got pregnant and I had it in my head I needed a job ASAP, but really that was just an excuse for me to finally leave because I didn't enjoy it at all. After a few years of very profitable labor work I ended up barely getting the job I have now as they really wanted someone with a degree, solely because everyone else applying had degrees, thankfully I just did better on my interview or something. Ended out working well for me, have a good career I enjoy that pays well, all because I was able to prove to them a college degree doesn't mean you are smart or have work ethic.

 

Essentially my wife and I did it fairly opposite of each other and it worked out for both of us, so its far from black and white answer.

 

Not a single one of my friends who finished college and married someone who also finished college have even bought a house yet, they are all still renting (throwing money away IMO) while trying to save for a down payment on a house and paying on student loans. I'm not even 30 yet nearing having my house half paid off, throwing extra money into a retirement fund, and making $10-20k less yearly than my graduated friends. Sure in 30 years they'll catch up and then quickly exceed my collective "worth", but I've been able to comfortably enjoy my younger years.

 

All of that being said, the one thing I would change if I could have done it again would be to suck it up and get an associates from the local Community College. Solely because it proves to potential employers you are willing to invest in your future. Personally I think its stupid, but that is how it works... I'm actually working on it right now, but only because I made a deal with my wife where I cannot buy a handgun until I have a degree. Was really hoping she would have forgotten about that deal...

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

I'll have to ignore what everyone has said and share mine. What are you most passionate about? For me it has always been medicine since I was a child that's why even if it's difficult, I took up a degree in life sciences and now I'm a M1 in med school. Am I happy? As M1 I'd say it's a struggle since you have to study everyday and for the most part I'm sleep deprived and binge drinking three to four espresso shots. But I know once I became board certified, I'll be extremely satisfied. Books are expensive though. As for tuition, it varies from country to country and I'd say tuition is not an issue for me in med school ($2K/semester). I'm sure @Nicnac and @RorzNZ can share similar or different experiences.

 

How I wish though I my undergrad degree is pharmacy. Even if I didn't go to med school, I can work as a community, manufacturing or hospital pharmacist. 

A day isn’t fun unless it’s 1am and you are on a coffee crash, only to take more at 6am when you wake up.

[BisquTz]

Mate I have 1 critical word, Apprenticeship. I dropped out after my GCSE's currently working towards my level 4 as an infratructure technician making £16k and earning my degree doing it, every year i go up a study level and earn more money its a win win, dont know what apprenticeships are like near you, but gaining my degree and earning money instead of losing it is amazing, and Im doing an open university course on the side in software development now i can afford to pay for it as i go

 

[N1NJ4W4RR10R]

What would you rather, experience that costs you obnoxious amounts, or experience you earns you money.

 

Personally, I'd rather the latter...I also tend to learn better when people aren't seemingly trying to bore me to death.

 

Edit, seeing your post about how you'd need a full time job for 2 - 3 years anyway I'd personally say it'd be better to train to gain experience through work. Better to earn money for 2 - 3 years than to work 2 - 3 years, losing money and then need to pay tonnes for years after when you get into a decent job.

[captain_to_fire]

3 hours ago, RorzNZ said:

A day isn’t fun unless it’s 1am and you are on a coffee crash, only to take more at 6am when you wake up.

Gotta keep those pesky adenosine receptors at bay. At the moment I can safely say I have high caffeine tolerance because three to four espresso shots doesn’t give me the jitters anymore. 

[Beef Boss]

4 minutes ago, dieegoperi said:

I think it depends on where you live, I mean, US college debts are fucking crazy, I live in Spain and just pay 2000 euros per year (x4 years). I think you could move to UK or some northern country of the EU if you really want to go to college with no huge debt. It's really up to you, but... The debt is not for everyone.

Yeah I live in America. I'm also in a technical school, was kind of trying to get an idea on how that'd fare in the field. 

[Nicnac]

5 hours ago, captain_to_fire said:

I'll have to ignore what everyone has said and share mine. What are you most passionate about? For me it has always been medicine since I was a child that's why even if it's difficult, I took up a degree in life sciences and now I'm a M1 in med school. Am I happy? As M1 I'd say it's a struggle since you have to study everyday and for the most part I'm sleep deprived and binge drinking three to four espresso shots. But I know once I became board certified, I'll be extremely satisfied. Books are expensive though. As for tuition, it varies from country to country and I'd say tuition is not an issue for me in med school ($2K/semester). I'm sure @Nicnac and @RorzNZ can share similar or different experiences.

 

How I wish though I my undergrad degree is pharmacy. Even if I didn't go to med school, I can work as a community, manufacturing or hospital pharmacist. 

I'm 4th year med student now and it doesn't get better lol. I feel like I'm not even gonna be a good doc, at this point I just wanna be a doc at all ....

Seriously most of my med school life has been frustrating and yea I made the best friends I've ever had during that time cause we all struggle at some point but it's just very exhausting. Once clinical rotations start it's gonna be even more stressful and the first years in the job are not going to be easy either. Quite the opposite. I've never had anxiety of failing a test or something like that before as I did very well in high school all the time but all this now has been something totally different lol. I've had countless sleepless nights before exams and especially the practical examinations in anatomy, where I failed the finals the first time where some of the most stressful experiences in my life. 

Everyone tells you it's bad but yea, it's really THAT bad.

And then you look at your freinds who study business and don't do shit except travelling and partying. 

I seriously get why the medical profession has one of the highest rates of people with alcoholic or other drug problems. 

This year I've had one whole week off and that's all the holidays I'm gonna have.... That's fast track for you lol.

I spent that week binge-drinking with my friends in a nice place by the sea and now we're all sick and trying to follow the lectures somehow 

Phew that was a lot of venting... If anyone read thru this I dunno... probs to u I guess haha.

 

 

[captain_to_fire]

44 minutes ago, Nicnac said:

I've never had anxiety of failing a test or something like that before as I did very well in high school all the time but all this now has been something totally different lol.

My anxiety levels are through the roof when it’s gross anatomy especially with muscles and identifying origin, insertion, innervation, and action. Looks like I’m bound to fail my first major exam for anatomy and that pesky practicals with the nasty smelling cadaver.

 

⬇️? not for the squeamish 

Spoiler

My first time dissecting a cadaver, I was throwing up and can’t eat meat for a few days because the pectoralis major looks like overdone steak. ?

44 minutes ago, Nicnac said:

Once clinical rotations start it's gonna be even more stressful and the first years in the job are not going to be easy either. Quite the opposite.

My professors are always saying med school != rotations. I don’t know if I’ll be good at it as I’m not exactly a people person and I don’t know if I can get OPQRST correctly. 

44 minutes ago, Nicnac said:

And then you look at your freinds who study business and don't do shit except travelling and partying. 

A part of me wants to quit and just take my Master’s degree (is research better @RorzNZ?), do research proposals and get funded or get a MBA and do business stuff because med school ain’t easy. I definitely get envious of my friends just constantly traveling. Not only substance abuse is common within the medical field because of the stress despite the Libby Zion Law in the state of NY (not followed by most countries afaik), we’re also subjected to a lot of unhealthy food because we have to study and yet doctors are expected to teach their patients to eat healthy. 

 

I’m definitely going on vacation after this academic year. Maybe on a beach with friends, get drunk afterwards. Then by M2 it’s more difficult since it’s Pharmacology, Pathology (histo and physio conspiring together), and others. 

 

[Nicnac]

30 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

snip-

Flash quiz: What did Libby Zion probably die of? ^^

 

I was the shoulder guy in our anatomy group. Was the only part I really knew well honestly lol. Brachial plexus is okay once you've dug through most of it. lol

Got tested on the omental bursa twice actually lol. I guess they liked it very much...

 

 

[captain_to_fire]

11 minutes ago, Nicnac said:

Flash quiz: What did Libby Zion probably die of? ^^

Five venti caramel macchiatos from Starbucks with extra espresso shot. I think it was something to do with antidepressant use. I’m not yet taking pharmacology or legal medicine so I’m not sure.