Foreshadow, yet another Intel vulnerability

[Drak3]

Here's what's needed to exploit the next Intel vulnerability:

• A machine running Ryzen 69 and Backtrack 7
• 10GBps network connection
• A working disc of Pong
• A1 Abrams tank, circa 1998
• Fall guy
• A whole lot of duct tape

[Stefan Payne]

On 14.8.2018 at 9:29 PM, Br3tt96 said:

Ryzenfall is kinda cool. As far as names go. lol

Yeah, though that one is really bullshit and looks like either a Marketing Stunt or stock manipulation as some of the actors involved were IIRC convicted of something like that in the past or at least stood trial.

 

And be honest:
How usefull is a "vulnerability" for that you need Admin rights?! And a Firmware that is specific for the machine it has to run on. Not very...

If you already have admin rights, you have better things to do than to flash a BIOS/Firmware of a device, you would usually install a rootkit or something like that. But flashing a BIOS? Naa, too much hassle, if you're already in...

 

Its like you want to rob a bank. And to rob the bank and what to do when you're already in the vault. You probably have better things to do - like actually rob the bank - than to install some stuff you could use for something, don't you?

 

23 hours ago, Maria Phene said:

Vulnerabilities are really a trending topic for all time. Foreshadow is the third significant flaw to affect the company’s chips this year. I hope that the patch they released will really mitigates or stops the problem for attackers could exploit this vulnerability to obtain sensitive information.

It is and according to the one who found Spectre/Meltdown its a shadow on the horizon for almost 5 years...

Because he wrote a patch, Intel was very interested in it and because of that, he looked further into the things and the Result was that he found Spectre/Meltdown. Yeah...

 

So with that in mind, its entirely possible that Intel at least had a hunch that those things might be possible and the fix would be rather simple, if you design a CPU from the ground up: Implement access checks inside the CPU. Wich they didn't because they didn't do a new CPU....

 

 

 

The worst thing:
It hits Intel at exactly the right time...

Its when AMD just came out with a pretty competitive product and there is an actual choice between Intel and AMD. And it tarnishes the Reputation that many people gave both companys (like Intel is more stable, wich is some shit from the 90s and wasn't really true then)...

[pas008]

16 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yeah, though that one is really bullshit and looks like either a Marketing Stunt or stock manipulation as some of the actors involved were IIRC convicted of something like that in the past or at least stood trial.

 

And be honest:
How usefull is a "vulnerability" for that you need Admin rights?! And a Firmware that is specific for the machine it has to run on. Not very...

If you already have admin rights, you have better things to do than to flash a BIOS/Firmware of a device, you would usually install a rootkit or something like that. But flashing a BIOS? Naa, too much hassle, if you're already in...

 

Its like you want to rob a bank. And to rob the bank and what to do when you're already in the vault. You probably have better things to do - like actually rob the bank - than to install some stuff you could use for something, don't you?

 

It is and according to the one who found Spectre/Meltdown its a shadow on the horizon for almost 5 years...

Because he wrote a patch, Intel was very interested in it and because of that, he looked further into the things and the Result was that he found Spectre/Meltdown. Yeah...

 

So with that in mind, its entirely possible that Intel at least had a hunch that those things might be possible and the fix would be rather simple, if you design a CPU from the ground up: Implement access checks inside the CPU. Wich they didn't because they didn't do a new CPU....

 

 

 

The worst thing:
It hits Intel at exactly the right time...

Its when AMD just came out with a pretty competitive product and there is an actual choice between Intel and AMD. And it tarnishes the Reputation that many people gave both companys (like Intel is more stable, wich is some shit from the 90s and wasn't really true then)...

Not sure what tea you been drinking But we prolly only hit the tip of the iceberg on these vulnerabilities from any designer

 

Intel amd apple arm all have their issues

If someone hunts they will find 

Saying one company is more secure them the next is nothing new right now

Why is windows considered less secure os because its widely used just like Intel 

If tables were turned many would be saying same shit 

 

 

[Stefan Payne]

AMD already has some simple acces checks inside the CPU, so they have to be more secure.

[pas008]

4 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

AMD already has some simple acces checks inside the CPU, so they have to be more secure.

Then why did they have vulnerabilities like the rest

You can't use admin privileges as an excuse because i can get admin privileges from a program or boot media

 

Like i said we prolly only hit the tip of the iceberg

[Stefan Payne]

Just now, pas008 said:

Then why did they have vulnerabilities like the rest

They don't with the same intensity.

See, that is the Problem. When something goes horribly wrong on Intels side, people start pointing fingers and claim that the other side has to be as bad and can't be better even if the evidence points in the opposite direction.

 

Just now, pas008 said:

You can't use admin privileges as an excuse because i can get admin privileges from a program or boot media

...wich means that you need HARDWARE ACCESS for the device, in this case you are physically there, can touch the device...

And that is what makes your claim rediculous!

Because if you already have access to the device, you probably also know the passwords because often times there is a sticker on the Server with the Passwords. 

Ähm, yeah, totally makes sense to risk bricking the device for this exploit. Absolutely.. Oh wait, it doesn't...

 

And that makes the Ryzenfall shit so bullshit, because if you can do that, you can also do other stuff that causes way more damage as well!

 

 

See my analogy with the Bank Vault???

That's exactly the point. YOU are already in the Vault.

Why would you install something that lets you access the vault, when you are standing in it and can do whatever you want!

 

Just now, pas008 said:

Like i said we prolly only hit the tip of the iceberg

Yes and everyone concentrates on Intel, there are no little to no mentions about Ryzen.

Probably because of the architecture and what AMD implemented, it is far harder to use the same exploits than it is on Intel...

 

Because the Problem is speculative excecution without any checks in place. AMD has something, Intel does not.

[pas008]

20 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

They don't with the same intensity.

See, that is the Problem. When something goes horribly wrong on Intels side, people start pointing fingers and claim that the other side has to be as bad and can't be better even if the evidence points in the opposite direction.

 

...wich means that you need HARDWARE ACCESS for the device, in this case you are physically there, can touch the device...

And that is what makes your claim rediculous!

Because if you already have access to the device, you probably also know the passwords because often times there is a sticker on the Server with the Passwords. 

Ähm, yeah, totally makes sense to risk bricking the device for this exploit. Absolutely.. Oh wait, it doesn't...

 

And that makes the Ryzenfall shit so bullshit, because if you can do that, you can also do other stuff that causes way more damage as well!

 

 

See my analogy with the Bank Vault???

That's exactly the point. YOU are already in the Vault.

Why would you install something that lets you access the vault, when you are standing in it and can do whatever you want!

 

Yes and everyone concentrates on Intel, there are no little to no mentions about Ryzen.

Probably because of the architecture and what AMD implemented, it is far harder to use the same exploits than it is on Intel...

 

Because the Problem is speculative excecution without any checks in place. AMD has something, Intel does not.

New arch for starters amd just started new arch why does zen habe zen plus if waa so secure?

And physical access is not needed to get admin privileges if piggy backed off on other software

 

Like i said Intel is majority so they will be targeted like Windows os 

Simple as that

[mr moose]

31 minutes ago, pas008 said:

New arch for starters amd just started new arch why does zen habe zen plus if waa so secure?

And physical access is not needed to get admin privileges if piggy backed off on other software

 

Like i said Intel is majority so they will be targeted like Windows os 

Simple as that

Give up, you are arguing with someone who will never accept AMD has flaws let alone understand them.

[Stefan Payne]

2 hours ago, pas008 said:

New arch for starters amd just started new arch why does zen habe zen plus if waa so secure?

Why are there like 4 Steppings of older CPUs?!
Zen+ is nothing more than a new stepping...

 

Because it made sense to make a small revision with higher clockrates and some other improvements.

 

In the olden days that was pretty common, you know?

So for the older people here its nothing new and more like back to the roots....

Slight improvements (or fixes) with improved CPU Designs were pretty much common back in the day...

And the changes were at times so large that even the DIE Area changed a couple of mm².

 

Just look at that:

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Pentium-III/Intel-Pentium III 1000 - RB80526PZ001256 (BX80526C1000256).html

 

~4mm² difference between cC0 and cD0 Stepping!

 

And of course, the most important thing:

Because they can!

 

Quote

And physical access is not needed to get admin privileges if piggy backed off on other software

And why would I flash a Firmware, that can probably brick the device I want to hack, when I already have admin rights?!

 

That is something you didn't explain yet...

 

Quote

Like i said Intel is majority so they will be targeted like Windows os 

Simple as that

Yes and Intel also has a ton of money and would probably pay anyone who would find equally serious flaws in AMD Processors a ton of money...

 

And I'd be surprised if that didn't happen and nobody is looking for it.

That we still haven't heard about that for 6 Months looks to me like there isn't much to be found on Zen.

If there were some biggies, it would be all over the news!

And with a couple of thousand dollars here and there, that shouldn't be a problem, now should it?

 

So that only proves that there isn't much to be found. The only thing that was found so far was some bullshit crap where you could flash the Firmware and do something with that....

 

Yeah, remember the Intel Managment Engine Thingy??

And also you could implement a Virus in every Firmware/EEPROM Chip a Device has. And those are probably even less secure...

 

So that looks more like Smoke Granades and also kinda proves that that was all they could find on AMD so far...
If there was more, we would know it by now. But we don't.

 

So why do you think that it is that we do not know much about the AMD Side right now?

Maybe because it is because its way harder to exploit AMD? 

Or maybe we "only" have a low success rate of a sucessful exploit?

 

[SupremeGOAT]

On 8/14/2018 at 2:27 PM, Emberstone said:

All these CPU vulnerabilities sound like Buzzfeed named them. Spectre, meltdown, foreshadow, and my favorite (though this one is a stretch considering its circumstances): Ryzenfall.

 

Kind of makes it hard to take them seriously.

hmmm wonder when they will find the vasectomy vulnerability....

[pas008]

8 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Why are there like 4 Steppings of older CPUs?!
Zen+ is nothing more than a new stepping...

 

Because it made sense to make a small revision with higher clockrates and some other improvements.

 

In the olden days that was pretty common, you know?

So for the older people here its nothing new and more like back to the roots....

Slight improvements (or fixes) with improved CPU Designs were pretty much common back in the day...

And the changes were at times so large that even the DIE Area changed a couple of mm².

 

Just look at that:

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Pentium-III/Intel-Pentium III 1000 - RB80526PZ001256 (BX80526C1000256).html

 

~4mm² difference between cC0 and cD0 Stepping!

 

And of course, the most important thing:

Because they can!

 

And why would I flash a Firmware, that can probably brick the device I want to hack, when I already have admin rights?!

 

That is something you didn't explain yet...

 

Yes and Intel also has a ton of money and would probably pay anyone who would find equally serious flaws in AMD Processors a ton of money...

 

And I'd be surprised if that didn't happen and nobody is looking for it.

That we still haven't heard about that for 6 Months looks to me like there isn't much to be found on Zen.

If there were some biggies, it would be all over the news!

And with a couple of thousand dollars here and there, that shouldn't be a problem, now should it?

 

So that only proves that there isn't much to be found. The only thing that was found so far was some bullshit crap where you could flash the Firmware and do something with that....

 

Yeah, remember the Intel Managment Engine Thingy??

And also you could implement a Virus in every Firmware/EEPROM Chip a Device has. And those are probably even less secure...

 

So that looks more like Smoke Granades and also kinda proves that that was all they could find on AMD so far...
If there was more, we would know it by now. But we don't.

 

So why do you think that it is that we do not know much about the AMD Side right now?

Maybe because it is because its way harder to exploit AMD? 

Or maybe we "only" have a low success rate of a sucessful exploit?

 

 

10 hours ago, mr moose said:

Give up, you are arguing with someone who will never accept AMD has flaws let alone understand them.

Yes i know obviously excuses 

They can crap in their mouth and they thank the gods for it

 

Have already stated before just testing the waters again igpu imc etc etc etc

You would think some can change and be the wiser guess the fanboy doesn't go away easy

 

Some day people will understand its just food for thought

loyalty to a brand still tastes like the next

All depends what you need from said product single core is my main concern

Just like grape koolaid makes vodka beetter etc etc etc

fyi admin rights doesn't give you the info you want 

[Stefan Payne]

So you admit to be wrong and that AMD is better in the security department than Intel because we haven't heard much about vulnerabilitys on AMD's side?

 

We only heard the usual propaganda that it has to be there but nobody has proven anything and that is with a competitor that has money and can pay aton of money to everyting who found something on AMD Hardware.

 

 

But all we got since Spectre and Meltdown was discovered is some bullshit theoretical nonsense without a proof of concept for that you need hardware access or admin rights. And it can potentially brick the device. THAT my dear is all we got, when "the other one" is able to pay you millions of dollars (well, at least a couple of thousands) for discovering a serious security bug in AMD Hardware.

 

But no, everything is found on Intel. 

And it gets worse every quarter as new shit, based on the same things, is discovered. And nobody has shown anything on AMD Hardware (yet)...

 

But yeah, AMD has to be as bad as Intel, because if it applies to Intel, it has to apply to AMD, because it has to be that way, right?

 

Because that is what YOU are claiming. And you don't have any proof. Well, why is that you do NOT have any proof?

Because you are wrong!  That is why. Because if AMD would have serious security bugs, we would know by now. But we haven't heard shit from that area now have we?

[pas008]

3 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

So you admit to be wrong and that AMD is better in the security department than Intel because we haven't heard much about vulnerabilitys on AMD's side?

 

We only heard the usual propaganda that it has to be there but nobody has proven anything and that is with a competitor that has money and can pay aton of money to everyting who found something on AMD Hardware.

 

 

But all we got since Spectre and Meltdown was discovered is some bullshit theoretical nonsense without a proof of concept for that you need hardware access or admin rights. And it can potentially brick the device. THAT my dear is all we got, when "the other one" is able to pay you millions of dollars (well, at least a couple of thousands) for discovering a serious security bug in AMD Hardware.

 

But no, everything is found on Intel. 

And it gets worse every quarter as new shit, based on the same things, is discovered. And nobody has shown anything on AMD Hardware (yet)...

 

But yeah, AMD has to be as bad as Intel, because if it applies to Intel, it has to apply to AMD, because it has to be that way, right?

 

Because that is what YOU are claiming. And you don't have any proof. Well, why is that you do NOT have any proof?

Because you are wrong!  That is why. Because if AMD would have serious security bugs, we would know by now. But we haven't heard shit from that area now have we?

Lol

13 flaws was nothing and their hands weren't clean of one variant too

Just like Apple and arm

 

Yeah 25 yrs these vulnerbilities been around and just discovered now 

But we should know how secure a new arch is rightaway

Seems right considering the koolaid you been drinking

[Blademaster91]

4 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Because you are wrong!  That is why. Because if AMD would have serious security bugs, we would know by now. But we haven't heard shit from that area now have we?

There are security vulnerabilities and bugs in all processors, of course hackers find things when they're actually looking for them. IIRC Intel pays bounty to people that find these things,so they aren't to blame for actually wanting bugs to be found. Meanwhile AMD just takes the marketing approach insisting everything is safe.

If AMD had more market share, were the market leader,and paid groups to find bugs then we would be hearing more about it.