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Mike2121

Is 7.1 bullshit

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Just now, pas008 said:

Bring them on bet you they Will tell you they can hear a difference

They May not like it nite they're is a difference

I never said there’s not a difference, look back through you won’t ever find anywhere where I said there’s no difference. When I say it doesn’t work I’m saying it makes the audio experience worse.

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Just now, Max_Settings said:

I never said there’s not a difference, look back through you won’t ever find anywhere where I said there’s no difference. When I say it doesn’t work I’m saying it makes the audio experience worse.

play pubg 

Now add sbx

And you can stfu lol

Farcry

Cod

Try it with deadspace also

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Also you think us audiophile people don’t game? Believe it or not most audiophiles are actually big gamers. That’s why like I said earlier my Fostex T50RPs are so stupidly good at gaming with their god tier imaging and spectacular low end. I wish everyone could try a pair of those, then you wouldn’t ever need a headset or virtual 7.1, they’d be the only thing you’d ever need for gaming.

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3 minutes ago, Max_Settings said:

Also you think us audiophile people don’t game? Believe it or not most audiophiles are actually big gamers. That’s why like I said earlier my Fostex T50RPs are so stupidly good at gaming with their god tier imaging and spectacular low end. I wish everyone could try a pair of those, then you wouldn’t ever need a headset or virtual 7.1, they’d be the only thing you’d ever need for gaming.

Listen to some pink floyd quad channel recording 

Then listen in virtual 

Just like virtual reality

It's all another perspective

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1 hour ago, PrometheanCat2 said:

Re: 7.1 marketed to gamers.  Are music lovers exempt from the latest whoo whoo? I'm not so sure now, as I saw this as a banner ad at headfi dot org.  I'll just leave this hear/here, and back away slowly....

 

https://www.sonarworks.com/truefi

WTF? So they made a software that puts an eq on your headphones to make them perfectly flat? That’s weird IDK why you’d want that. That’s the point of different headphones to have them color your music.

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Oh this is still going on. I can easily hear the difference between when some virtual surround software is on vs when it isn't. Do I like how it sounds? No, because as I have said earlier it sounds artificial to me and I often listen to music while I play. Do I think it is giving me an advantage? Not really, I am so trained in normal stereo that I have zero problem pin pointing where sounds are coming from. Do I think that it can help some people? Yeah, especially the good software, but the good software to my knowledge only work if you have some specific hardware, I think there also is one you can just buy the software, but I am not sure, since I don't really look into this that often.

 

I prefer a big soundstage and good imaging, because it doesn't sound artificial, but actually more natural to me. Plus it is easier to pin point where sounds are coming from with this vs something with zero soundstage and bad imaging.

 

I think where all of this virtual surround sound stigma comes from are those really bad "gaming" headsets that just sound awful no matter what you do and never had some of the better software. So even when you had it turned on they were still so muddy sounding with so little detail that you couldn't pick up on a lot of the smaller details. While if you had a decent headphone then you could pick up on those little details.

 

At the end of the day it all comes down to the individual person, if it helps someone then that someone should use it. If you don't like it, then don't use it. 

 

Can I go now? I have a busy day ahead of me, but have a good day guys.


Before you buy amp and dac.  My thoughts on the M50x  Ultimate Ears Reference monitor review I might have a thing for audio...

My main Headphones and IEMs:  K612 pro, HD 25 and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor, HD 580 with HD 600 grills

DAC and AMP: RME ADI 2 DAC

Speakers: Genelec 8040, System Audio SA205

Receiver: Denon AVR-1612

Desktop: R7 1700, GTX 1080  RX 580 8GB and other stuff

Laptop: ThinkPad P50: i7 6820HQ, M2000M. ThinkPad T420s: i7 2640M, NVS 4200M

Feel free to pm me if you have a question for me or quote me. If you want to hear what I have to say about something just tag me.

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1 hour ago, Max_Settings said:

@pas008 this would be my short list of the bigger audiophile forum members.

 

@Dackzy

@GamerDude

@seduce_me

@monjanger

@spwath

@FloRolf

@SSL

@h264

 

So far all the ones in this list that have commented on this thread have claimed that virtual 7.1 is BS and that it isn’t a good technology in the current state. I would be curious to see what the others says. But once again I stand by what I said, the technology doesn’t work due to the actual physical limitation of 2 drivers. And actual headphone companies would use it if it worked.

Hey, I'm NOT one of the audiophiles here, I'm still in the process of learning stuff...never said I was in the league of those excellent audiophiles here (or anywhere else). The only thing I can say is that I have some nice audio gear and that's about the size of it, bubba.:$

 

 

As for surround gaming, I prefer physical 5.1/7.1 speakers for now with games that surround such surround modes. Dead Space, IIRC, has very good sound design/implementation, I recall playing it on my Auzentech X-Fi Forte (or, was it some SB X-Fi card I was using before the Forte?) + Logitech Z5500 setup, the clang of something metallic striking the grilled floor behind me (from my rear speaker) almost had me jumping off my chair when I first played DS.


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If anyone was wondering, I use a sennheiser hd650, connected to a o2 headphone amplifier, connected to musical fidelity vdac, connected to an asus xonar dgx. The xonar gives me 7.1 virtual surround sound with dolby headphone.

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13 hours ago, Dackzy said:

Oh this is still going on. I can easily hear the difference between when some virtual surround software is on vs when it isn't. Do I like how it sounds? No, because as I have said earlier it sounds artificial to me and I often listen to music while I play. Do I think it is giving me an advantage? Not really, I am so trained in normal stereo that I have zero problem pin pointing where sounds are coming from. Do I think that it can help some people? Yeah, especially the good software, but the good software to my knowledge only work if you have some specific hardware, I think there also is one you can just buy the software, but I am not sure, since I don't really look into this that often.

 

I prefer a big soundstage and good imaging, because it doesn't sound artificial, but actually more natural to me. Plus it is easier to pin point where sounds are coming from with this vs something with zero soundstage and bad imaging.

 

I think where all of this virtual surround sound stigma comes from are those really bad "gaming" headsets that just sound awful no matter what you do and never had some of the better software. So even when you had it turned on they were still so muddy sounding with so little detail that you couldn't pick up on a lot of the smaller details. While if you had a decent headphone then you could pick up on those little details.

 

At the end of the day it all comes down to the individual person, if it helps someone then that someone should use it. If you don't like it, then don't use it. 

 

Can I go now? I have a busy day ahead of me, but have a good day guys.

Yes I never doubt that it doesn't change the sound at all, I'm just in the boat that it doesn't do anything beneficial to the sound.

12 hours ago, GamerDude said:

Hey, I'm NOT one of the audiophiles here, I'm still in the process of learning stuff...never said I was in the league of those excellent audiophiles here (or anywhere else). The only thing I can say is that I have some nice audio gear and that's about the size of it, bubba.:$

 

 

As for surround gaming, I prefer physical 5.1/7.1 speakers for now with games that surround such surround modes. Dead Space, IIRC, has very good sound design/implementation, I recall playing it on my Auzentech X-Fi Forte (or, was it some SB X-Fi card I was using before the Forte?) + Logitech Z5500 setup, the clang of something metallic striking the grilled floor behind me (from my rear speaker) almost had me jumping off my chair when I first played DS.

Well I never said that any of us are experts. But you are definitely one of the bigger audio people on here. xD

 

Anyway yes absolutely in speakers 7.1 is great, but the argument here is with headphones.

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7 hours ago, Max_Settings said:

Well I never said that any of us are experts. But you are definitely one of the bigger audio people on here. xD

 

Anyway yes absolutely in speakers 7.1 is great, but the argument here is with headphones.

Heh, the one that I think who really knows his stuff is SSL, I think he's involved in the audio field somehow. I'm just real enthusiastic about audio, and I love playing around with different cans and DAC stack/combos. This far, my Oppo HA-1 and iFi Micro iDSD are getting most of my attention.

 

The thing about gaming with headphones/headsets is, even IF they get the 7.1 algorithm down to a tee, it really depends on you staring ahead at your monitor. Say, if you were to turn your head to the left or right, the sound field/perception does not change like with actual speakers around you. I recall testing out Dragonheart on a simple 5.1 setup, as Drago was flying around Bowen (Dennis Quaid) and talking to him, I was quite taken by the surround effect, I could actually hear Drago's voice and flaps of his wings going around me as he spoke.....the day headset.headphone surround gaming can achieve such clear and distinct surround effects would be the day I adopt it.


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11 hours ago, GamerDude said:

The thing about gaming with headphones/headsets is, even IF they get the 7.1 algorithm down to a tee, it really depends on you staring ahead at your monitor. Say, if you were to turn your head to the left or right, the sound field/perception does not change like with actual speakers around you. I recall testing out Dragonheart on a simple 5.1 setup, as Drago was flying around Bowen (Dennis Quaid) and talking to him, I was quite taken by the surround effect, I could actually hear Drago's voice and flaps of his wings going around me as he spoke.....the day headset.headphone surround gaming can achieve such clear and distinct surround effects would be the day I adopt it.

We already have this in the sense that when you are gaming, you are moving your head vicariously though the mouse, and that does change the balance. You won't have that in movies or music obviously. And it helps everyone - people with surround sound, virtual surround sound, or stereo.

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On 1/23/2018 at 6:36 PM, Mike2121 said:

the cloud 2's are 60 on ebay recertifyed are they good for gaming on stereo for footsteps in fps

I personally own the cloud 2's and I can confirm the surround sound does not sound artificial and you can use it to hear all around better compared to regular stereo headphones.

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Ok this thread is going absolutely nowhere. So for the last time I’m going to leave my final statement.

 

What we have concluded here is that the audiophiles hate virtual surround and claim it sucks for positional Audio. The gamers bought into the marketing and think it actually works. While in the mean time actual headphone companies don’t use the technology even in their gaming headphones and it isn’t used on any actual high end headphones or DACs. The only things virtual 7.1 is used on is gaming branded stuff. (if we don’t count receivers for speakers because that’s a totally separate issue we are exclusively talking about headphones here) 

 

Like I have said before once we get an Orpheus with virtual 7.1 we’ll talk but until then...

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6 hours ago, Max_Settings said:

Ok this thread is going absolutely nowhere. So for the last time I’m going to leave my final statement.

 

What we have concluded here is that the audiophiles hate virtual surround and claim it sucks for positional Audio. The gamers bought into the marketing and think it actually works. While in the mean time actual headphone companies don’t use the technology even in their gaming headphones and it isn’t used on any actual high end headphones or DACs. The only things virtual 7.1 is used on is gaming branded stuff. (if we don’t count receivers for speakers because that’s a totally separate issue we are exclusively talking about headphones here) 

 

Like I have said before once we get an Orpheus with virtual 7.1 we’ll talk but until then...

sennheiser does make virtual surround sound, yamaha too  dts headphonex is picking up also

and saying audiophiles hate it lol, not sure if you spent time at headfi or any other audio forums at all but there many discussions there also with members liking it or hating it

ITS A PREFERENCE just like your sound preferences 

lol

 

and forcing a consumer to use virtual surround sound is plain dumb thats like forcing them to be a gamer

wtf kind of logic is that?

 

let the hate flow through you

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11 hours ago, GamerDude said:

Heh, the one that I think who really knows his stuff is SSL, I think he's involved in the audio field somehow. ...[snip].

Ooookaaaaay. Let's NOT invoke that user. @SSL can get very grumpy with wheel-spinning threads... and pointless comments. This has been interesting (and actually easier for me to understand that some of the archaic threads on headfi dot org). Cheers, eh.

 

...End Trans...

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It all depends on what company you get the headphones from. Back when I played RB6: Seige on PS4, I could instantly tell when the surround shut off on my TurtleBeach PX4’s. It really depend on the person as well, most of my friends use stero headsets and they do perfectly fine, with me I have sensitive ears and very good hearing for out of the norm stuff that I hear or am expecting to hear. I recommend for you the Logitech G663 Artemis Spectrum, they work great for me and it has some great features.

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52 minutes ago, PrometheanCat2 said:

Ooookaaaaay. Let's NOT invoke that user. @SSL can get very grumpy with wheel-spinning threads... and pointless comments. This has been interesting (and actually easier for me to understand that some of the archaic threads on headfi dot org). Cheers, eh.

 

...End Trans...

ROFLMFAO....xD


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3 hours ago, pas008 said:

sennheiser does make virtual surround sound, yamaha too  dts headphonex is picking up also

and saying audiophiles hate it lol, not sure if you spent time at headfi or any other audio forums at all but there many discussions there also with members liking it or hating it

ITS A PREFERENCE just like your sound preferences 

lol

 

and forcing a consumer to use virtual surround sound is plain dumb thats like forcing them to be a gamer

wtf kind of logic is that?

 

let the hate flow through you

I honestly can’t believe how hard headed you are. Sennheiser doesn’t make virtual surround. Sennheiser’s surround is actual surround, it’s a recording technology. When we are talking about virtual surround in this thread we are talking about taking a stereo source and running it through an algorithm to make it fake surround and then playing back through stereo headphones.

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6 minutes ago, Max_Settings said:

I honestly can’t believe how hard headed you are. Sennheiser doesn’t make virtual surround. Sennheiser’s surround is actual surround, it’s a recording technology. When we are talking about virtual surround in this thread we are talking about taking a stereo source and running it through an algorithm to make it fake surround and then playing back through stereo headphones.

sennheiser Binaural Rendering Engine

 

https://en-us.sennheiser.com/audio-amplifier-gsx-1000

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2 minutes ago, pas008 said:

sennheiser Binaural Rendering Engine

 

https://en-us.sennheiser.com/audio-amplifier-gsx-1000

That is the only Sennheiser product that uses virtual 7.1 And would you look at that it’s a “gaming” product. Like I said before Sennheiser is smart and they want to sell a product to gamers, they know ones like you who bought into the marketing wouldn’t buy it without virtual 7.1.

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10 minutes ago, Max_Settings said:

That is the only Sennheiser product that uses virtual 7.1 And would you look at that it’s a “gaming” product. Like I said before Sennheiser is smart and they want to sell a product to gamers, they know ones like you who bought into the marketing wouldn’t buy it without virtual 7.1.

lol algorithms to enhance

because some prefer it

I know many on ocn/hf/etc that love its virtual sound

why would you need virtual sound for just listening to music? logic?

 

hate more

 

let the hate flow through you

 

 

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On 1/25/2018 at 11:43 PM, MatsNorway said:

Will give feedback on this shortly. I did some intense study of this before i went to buy. Problem is that most talk about 7.1 surround when they have never tried it and shops should stop calling it 7.1 when it is actually simulated surround. There is some 5.1 headsets out there and very few 7.1 headsets.

 

After playing PUBG with earplugs that sorta failed on giving stereo i got bored of not hearing where people where shooting at me from so i did the extreme thing and bought a 7.1 soundcard from HT omega and real 7.1 surround sound headset, the Razer Tiamat 7.1 V2 - The Tiamat has 5 separate drivers in each ear. If that does not give a good surround effect nothing will.

 

I will make a review++ when the screen returns next week and update it once the HT omega card arrives. So a review of 7.1, Razer tiamat and the HT omega card.

 

I can reveal that i am not too impressed with first impressions of the headset. It feels cheap. and you do not have detachable cables from the headset to the "mixer" thingy

oh. I forgot to update this one. There will be no separate review as i have not used them enough to give a fair review.. that is because i return these as fast as possible :P 

 

The Razer Tiamat 7.1 V2 is so not worth it. Returning them tomorrow hopefully. If you find them used for like.. 100Dollar or less and wanna try.. why not.. but otherwise try some other 5.1 or skip entirely.

 

The main issue is not that 7.1 surround does not work. It does. And it does it very well in games like Warthunder for instance.

 

Problem is that it is buggy/immature as tech because when you go out to windows and open spotify you only get sound from the "center" or something. so that is a bit lame because those drivers are too small to give good music on their own..

 

So windows/whatever is not smart enough to understand that a stereo source should play on all elements while the 7.1 source should be.. 7.1..

 

So you can not get good sound with spotify in the background while playing a game in 7.1 - that in itself is a no buy for me.

 

In other games like half-life 2 it was shite.. echoing and what not. (could be drivers/soundcard++)

 

There is also flaws in the design outside of the sound and all that.. the cable going to the "mixer" is too short.. And it is crazy thick due to all the cables inside it.. so it is very noticeable and you hear it rub on your t-shirt.

 

Honestly.. if true 7.1 is going to be a thing it needs to happen through a usb cable/digital interface and with a proper software package that detects audio source and mixes all of them properly or at least lets you set presets for say spotify (spotify = stereo sound)

 

Time to find some beefy Headphones as originally intended + perhaps a DAC.

 

 

 

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On 1/24/2018 at 2:49 AM, Mike2121 said:

Ive heard differing opinions on 7.1 surround sound in headphones. Is it bullshit marketing or no.Is stereo better for fps and hearing footsteps?

Virtual surround sound isn't bullshit, and that's coming from someone who generally prefers stereo much more than virtual surround sound and has bought AKG Q701, Audio-Technica ATH-AD700x, Beyerdynamic DT990 (600Ω), Philips Fidelio X2, Sennheiser HD598, Sennheiser HD700 and Sennheiser HD800 in pursuit of bigger and better soundstage and imaging to achieve the same three-dimensional space and environment of sound that virtual surround sound produces. No matter how large the soundstage is and how good the imaging is, stereo doesn't sound fully three-dimensional as virtual surround sound at all times. Dialogues and very loud sounds like tanks, jets, trains, bonfires, collapsing buildings, galloping horses, etc. near you tend to sound very intimate and dominate in either ear when you don't face them. It can be unpleasant. Virtual surround sound has its drawbacks too: it compresses and degrades the sound quality. I find it most noticeable with rain, waterfalls and splashing water; they sound akin to white and pink noise. Subtle details become faint or not audible. When headphones already have decent soundstage, imaging and separation, I find that virtual surround sound diffuses the positional audio and the ability to pick up and locate/track audio cues. Virtual Surround sound varies a lot from processor to processor (CMSS-3D, Dolby Headphone, SBX, etc.) How you perceive it compared to stereo also depends on the soundstage, imaging and separation of the headphone and how games are mixed. I only use virtual surround sound in games that are badly mixed. The Bioshock games are great examples of this.

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I'm just going to jump out of the box compared to what a lot of people are saying about this subject because I've messed around on actual 5.1 speakers in games vs stereo/simulated surround in headphones before and the biggest factor is the game's audio engine. I've played a lot of War Thunder using headphones mostly and 5.1 ADA995 speakers.... the better audio experience overall is headphones BUT sometimes the engine doesn't really put the sound where it is as good as I have heard in FPS games like the early call of duty games... like 1 or 2 before people had used "quiet" footstep modes. You had to sneak/crouch around in order to be quiet. Wolfenstein 2 however was really good at using sounds better and the headphones didn't really change the experience and I have very expensive Sony MDR-Z7 headphones. Also if you use 5.1 but only have 2 speakers in War Thunder it sounds like crap. So the right mode has to be enabled IN GAME first. And yea I agree 5.7/7.1 gaming headphones are all marketing BS.

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