No more ReFS outside of the Workstation?

[WMGroomAK]

As a part of the list of features that the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update lists as being removed or deprecated, Microsoft decided to update this list on 8/17/2017 to remove the ability to create new ReFS partitions outside of Windows 10 Enterprise or Windows 10 Pro for Workstation.  

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/08/microsoft-to-remove-full-refs-support-from-windows-10-pro-push-workstation-sku/

Quote

In the Fall Creators Update, Microsoft is removing the ability to create volumes using its new ReFS file system from Windows 10 Pro. Existing volumes will continue to work, but Pro will no longer be able to create new ones.

After rumors in June, Microsoft confirmed last week that it was producing yet another variant of Windows 10: Pro for Workstations. The main features of this build are that it lifts certain limits found in regular Pro: up to four processors (compared to two in Pro) and 6TB of RAM (compared to 2TB). It also has support for certain exotic server-grade hardware, including non-volatile main memory and high-speed network adaptors.

 

Microsoft is promoting one final feature in Pro for Workstations: its new, modern file system, ReFS ("resilient file system"). ReFS—like modern file systems on other platforms such as Oracle's ZFS and Linux's btrfs—includes integrated checksums to detect data corruption. Combined with Storage Spaces, it can automatically reconstruct damaged data from software-defined arrays.

 

Promoting this as a feature of Pro for Workstations was, however, a little odd; current Windows 10 Pro already supports ReFS and can be used to create ReFS volumes on Storage Spaces. Windows machines must still use the traditional NTFS file system for certain roles, as ReFS isn't yet bootable—something that remains true even in Pro for Workstations. But the file system itself works and is supported.

 

However, Twitter user Tero Alhonen spotted that the list of features removed or deprecated in the Fall Creators Update now includes the creation of ReFS volumes in Windows 10 Pro. Windows 10 Enterprise (available only to volume license customers) and Windows 10 Pro for Workstations will be the only versions of Windows 10 to retain the ability to create ReFS volumes.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4034825/features-that-are-removed-or-deprecated-in-windows-10-fall-creators-up

 

While I can understand that this is a feature that MS wants to tout as being for the Enterprise environment, I don't think that MS should be removing it as a feature from the consumer Windows 10 Pro as there are probably users of ReFS out there with a standard Windows Pro license. Especially odd move if MS wants to see any sort of wider spread adoption of ReFS outside of the enterprise space...

 

Just as a note, I didn't see any of this mentioned in the prior Fall Creators Update thread or Windows 10 Pro for Workstation thread...

[BachChain]

Want to use a filesystem that isn't 24 years old and has basic modern features? That'll be however many thousands of dollars per year a server license costs.

[themctipers]

3 minutes ago, BachChain said:

Want to use a filesystem that isn't 24 years old and has basic modern features? That'll be however many thousands of dollars per year a server license costs.

Linux is better than windows at NTFS and making sure MY FILES DONT GO MISSING

[leadeater]

Well this is the dumbest thing ever, why not just rename ReFS for desktops to something else to appease the idiots and continue the work on migrating fully to something other than NTFS.

[goodtofufriday]

Why remove a feature? Can they do that without any legal issues? Im sure there are business running on pro that need this feature, and it would cripple them. 

[snortingfrogs]

Stupid move if it happens, although I don't use ReFS on any of my HDD's yet I wanted to start using it when building my new computer later this fall.

Seems like I have to get Windows 10 Workstation from eBay, alibaba or some other shady place then.

[WMGroomAK]

@leadeater, @snortingfrogs, Thinking on it, and this is purely my own thoughts, I'm wondering how much this has to do with MS removing/saying that ReFS was not meant to be supported in OneDrive and their want for the consumer market to be completely migrated to their own Cloud based services...  If so, I feel that it is really short sighted and a disservice to the 'super-user' that was their original target for Windows Pro.

[Vode]

4 hours ago, leadeater said:

Well this is the dumbest thing ever, why not just rename ReFS for desktops to something else to appease the idiots and continue the work on migrating fully to something other than NTFS.

Oh boi am I glad I built a FreeNAS system instead of a Windows based one... but it makes sense for MS. 

 

They made ReFS available to everyone for sort of a free beta test in conjuntion with the telemetry. Then when it's fully ready cut off the consumers and make profit by upselling people who need it to the more expensive enterprise version of Windows. 

[SCHISCHKA]

9 hours ago, leadeater said:

Well this is the dumbest thing ever, why not just rename ReFS for desktops to something else to appease the idiots and continue the work on migrating fully to something other than NTFS.

Might be a similar story to Redhat dropping BTRFS http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Red-Hat-to-Drop-Support-for-Btrfs

It must be very challenging to implement all the features.

 

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, SCHISCHKA said:

Might be a similar story to Redhat dropping BTRFS http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Red-Hat-to-Drop-Support-for-Btrfs

It must be very challenging to implement all the features.

ReFS is still the core of Windows Server Storage Spaces though and is still in Windows 10 Enterprise etc, just seems like Microsoft is removing a feature that could be used to have resilient storage in desktops simply to push their online services. ReFS itself is backwards compatible with all NTFS APIs so that isn't a reason either which is another reason why disabling OneDrive for ReFS was not even necessary at a technical level and Microsoft knows it.

[SCHISCHKA]

Just now, leadeater said:

ReFS is still the core of Windows Server Storage Spaces though and is still in Windows 10 Enterprise etc, just seems like Microsoft is removing a feature that could be used to have resilient storage in desktops simply to push their online services. ReFS itself is backwards compatible with all NTFS APIs so that isn't a reason either which is another reason why disabling OneDrive for ReFS was not even necessary at a technical level and Microsoft knows it.

someone call Alex Jones. Microsoft wants all your data on government accessible servers.

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, SCHISCHKA said:

someone call Alex Jones. Microsoft wants all your data on government accessible servers.

It's the aliens!

[jagdtigger]

1 minute ago, SCHISCHKA said:

someone call Alex Jones. Microsoft wants all your data on government accessible servers.

I wouldnt be surprised if later someone finds a backdoor in win10 for the NSA or some other acronym agency...

[AlexGoesHigh]

10 hours ago, themctipers said:

Linux is better than windows at NTFS and making sure MY FILES DONT GO MISSING

How the hell does something like that happens?

[themctipers]

Just now, AlexGoesHigh said:

How the hell does something like that happens?

mechanical failure?

nope, was an ssd.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, themctipers said:

mechanical failure?

nope, was an ssd.

SSDs can still fail but either way for a single disk there isn't any filesystem that will protect you from that 

[themctipers]

Just now, leadeater said:

SSDs can still fail but either way for a single disk there isn't any filesystem that will protect you from that 

only 1000 hours or something like that  

doubt a lightly used SSD will die 

Spoiler

also thank for banning that spammer, finally, a LTT staff from europe woke up

everyone was pressing the 'pray to god' button

 

 

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, themctipers said:

only 1000 hours or something like that  

doubt a lightly used SSD will die 

Parts can still be faulty, hours used doesn't effect that much. NAND wear is a different story. Actual drive faults generally wouldn't cause some files to be lost though, more likely total filesystem corruption. Power failures can cause files to be lost or corrupt, that is where ReFS/ZFS/BTFS can actually help for a single disk.

 

NTFS itself isn't prone to errors or stability problems but it is totally susceptible to hardware faults and that is basically always the cause of problems for disks formatted with NTFS.

 

Not that this is any reason for NTFS to stay around longer than it should, I simply cannot see why ReFS can't replace it even if some features are removed from Home/Pro and it only has the data integrity parts of it and nothing else.

[themctipers]

Just now, leadeater said:

Parts can still be faulty, hours used doesn't effect that much. NAND wear is a different story. Actual drive faults generally wouldn't cause some files to be lost though, more likely total filesystem corruption. Power failures can cause files to be lost or corrupt, that is where ReFS/ZFS/BTFS can actually help for a single disk.

 

NTFS itself isn't prone to errors or stability problems but it is totally susceptible to hardware faults and that is basically always the cause of problems for disks formatted with NTFS.

 

Not that this is any reason for NTFS to stay around longer than it should, I simply cannot see why ReFS can't replace it even if some features are removed from Home/Pro and it only has the data integrity parts of it and nothing else.

have used it for two years lightly, don't really think or hope that it'll just die on me

use safe eject on windows as i am using a USB to SATA adapter, its my 250gb large USB  

id use ZFS if it was supported on macOS / bunsenlabs / w10 without being annoying

[LAwLz]

Gotta love forced updates, right?
I wonder what feature Microsoft will remove from the Pro version and try to sell back in a more expensive version later.

NIC teaming support? Nah, that was already removed and made server exclusive.

Local GPOs to disable some things? Oh no, they have already started removing some GPOs and making them Enterprise exclusive.

Remove support for ReFS? Oh wait, that's what this thread is about.

 

This is the problem with forced updates. Microsoft are not strangers to fucking their customers over if it will benefit them. Giving them full control over your computer is a bad idea and they have already abused it at several points.

 

 

Edit:

My only consolation is that ReFS is pretty shitty so I hadn't moved over to it yet.

Microsoft need to get serious and develop a proper file system. NTFS is ass and ReFS is terrible for the average Joe and not all that great for the intended audience either.

[Misanthrope]

Well I'm glad that at least I didn't spring for the Pro version and went with the Home version instead.

[Sauron]

[Trixanity]

58 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Microsoft need to get serious and develop a proper file system. NTFS is ass and ReFS is terrible for the average Joe and not all that great for the intended audience either.

Well, or just implement one of the many excellent file systems that already exist that are better and more modern than NTFS. But Microsoft doesn't do that. They like to make their own instead of going for the industry standard if possible.

[Dabombinable]

2 hours ago, themctipers said:

only 1000 hours or something like that  

doubt a lightly used SSD will die 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

also thank for banning that spammer, finally, a LTT staff from europe woke up

everyone was pressing the 'pray to god' button

 

 

Famous last words. My 2015 OCZ Arc 100 240GB suddenly died while Windows 10 was running trim....and yet my 2013 Corsair Force LS 60GB which has had far more writes than the Arc ever did still works like new (as well as wrecking my 2013 128GB Sandisk U100 and 2016 120GB Kingston SSD Now V300)

[themctipers]

Just now, Dabombinable said:

Famous last words. My 2015 OCZ Arc 100 240GB suddenly died while Windows 10 was running trim....and yet my 2013 Corsair Force LS 60GB which has had far more writes than the Arc ever did still works like new (as well as wrecking my 2013 128GB Sandisk U100 and 2016 120GB Kingston SSD Now V300)

as long as I can recover data .. It stores important shit because I can't trust a HDD (all of mine are failing except for my Seagate 80g refurbished from 2004)