Thoughts on magic

[DigitalHermit]

btw, is this thread open to discussion on precognition?

i.e. being able to predict a firecracker going off in the distance seconds before observing the event or that feeling that you get when something's about to go disastrously wrong...

I'm not exactly sure if this falls under 'magic' or just probabilities at work...

also have a nice discussion on the physics of magical girls...

My personal opinion is that "technology when advanced enough is indistinguishable from magic"... thus certain manifestations of magic can be said to be within the realm science...

to expand on this point, elder magic can be explained by 'aliens' or 'time travelers'... and the 'supernatural' being manifestations or 'shadows' of phenomena occurring in higher dimensions...

all of the above may fall completely under pseudoscience though... it's just my personal half-hearted explanation on things that I keep encountering in literature and media...

Edit:

You guys should read about the Nasuverse explanation for magic and magecraft...

[dalekphalm]

If god's real, prove it.

You can't, same way with magic.

 

The way I see it, magic probably is't real, but it's nice to think that there is such thing as real magic. Like harry potter stuff. I don't believe in magic personally, but I still leave a very small opening for hope that some day it will become real. Because that would be really awesome.

God doesn't impact the physical world. If God decided to do some miraculous events, send an Angel down with Jesus holding hands, in front of the White House during the State of the Union Address, and levitate over to Obama, then yes, that would be proven.

 

Ultimately, since God does not impact the physical world, whether (s)he exists or not is ultimately irrelevant.

 

But what it comes down to is this: Magic is not real. It cannot exist. Why? Because anything we might "think" of as magic, is actually just Science that we have not discovered/understood yet. So magic will never exist. However, we might discover science that allows us to do really badass stuff in the future.

 

The thing is with physics, maths, or any sort of humans like to call evidence and logical thinking is only logical within the human mind and our scope of understanding. 

 

Unless you believe that humans are omniscient, we don't know everything. So the only thing we can do is make our best guess. That is essentially what our 'facts' are. A bunch of frizzy haired scientists got together and said hey we all drew similar conclusions so let's call this fact. However, fact is not absolute, it can be wrong. To say something is more right than another is simply saying something is more popular than another.

 

So while we bicker here about how magic is real or not real nobody really KNOWS. It's really just anyone's guess. This leads me to conclude that everything is magical. If you take a good hard look at life both the macro (universe) and micro (atomic) level, it truly is a, subjectively, magical place. Luckily, humans, unbeknownst to why (although I have my beliefs), have a far greater ability to reason than any other species. With this unique ability, we able to use tools like science to better understand our world. 

 

Just my 2 cents. 

See above, your point, whether you intended it as so or not, is that magic is simply science we have yet to discover.

 

btw, is this thread open to discussion on precognition?

i.e. being able to predict a firecracker going off in the distance seconds before observing the event or that feeling that you get when something's about to go disastrously wrong...

I'm not exactly sure if this falls under 'magic' or just probabilities at work...

also have a nice discussion on the physics of magical girls...

My personal opinion is that "technology when advanced enough is indistinguishable from magic"... thus certain manifestations of magic can be said to be within the realm science...

to expand on this point, elder magic can be explained by 'aliens' or 'time travelers'... and the 'supernatural' being manifestations or 'shadows' of phenomena occurring in higher dimensions...

all of the above may fall completely under pseudoscience though... it's just my personal half-hearted explanation on things that I keep encountering in literature and media...

Edit:

You guys should read about the Nasuverse explanation for magic and magecraft...

I'm pretty skeptical about precognition, because honestly, the brain is a tricky thing. As awesome as we think the brain is, it's actually pretty fucking dumb at times. Neil Degrasse Tyson has an excellent quote, when talking about UFO's, that can also be applied here:

 

Basically, he's talking about Brain Teaser puzzles and optical illusions. They shouldn't be called puzzles. They should be called Brain Failures - because ultimately, that's what an optical illusion is - it's your brain failing at seeing/comprehending something in front of you.

 

So when someone says "I just knew that firecracker was going to go off", I'm skeptical. Are they remembering correctly? No insult to them, but often times, we remember things incorrectly, and this creates confirmation bias.

 

Whether precognition is possible or not? I don't think it's possible to know "exactly" what will happen, since the future is a fluid concept. The future isn't set, as if I decide to go left instead of right, that changes the future. Rather, if precognition were a thing, it would be seeing "possible" futures, or perhaps the future that is "most likely" to happen. But in that case, we don't fully understand time yet - we theorize but we're not really 100% sure whether time is fluid, like I believe, or fixed.

 

It could also be that the future is fluid, while the past is fixed (For example, if you went back in time, all of that actually already happened, so you're not changing the future).

 

But that's a whole different topic.

[Nexxus]

The thing is, when people do these things the scientist classify it as something else, so why isn't  magick a category in science?

[techswede]

Dalekphalm and Clanscorpia right now

[Unhelpful]

I'm not an idiot

You are either an idiot or a troll. 

[TopWargamer]

If you think of it, we used to have magick (if we trust old writings, and if you dont trust those look at the bible), but the magick currently used by magicians is different, its willing something to happen. And nobodys accepting the proof because they cant trust someones thought (most psionics)

Excuse me while I butt in, but even in the Bible magic doesn't exist. Any and all limited powers were God given or devil given. And the Bible pretty clearly says that.

[DigitalHermit]

God doesn't impact the physical world. If God decided to do some miraculous events, send an Angel down with Jesus holding hands, in front of the White House during the State of the Union Address, and levitate over to Obama, then yes, that would be proven.

 

Ultimately, since God does not impact the physical world, whether (s)he exists or not is ultimately irrelevant.

 

But what it comes down to is this: Magic is not real. It cannot exist. Why? Because anything we might "think" of as magic, is actually just Science that we have not discovered/understood yet. So magic will never exist. However, we might discover science that allows us to do really badass stuff in the future.

 

See above, your point, whether you intended it as so or not, is that magic is simply science we have yet to discover.

 

I'm pretty skeptical about precognition, because honestly, the brain is a tricky thing. As awesome as we think the brain is, it's actually pretty fucking dumb at times. Neil Degrasse Tyson has an excellent quote, when talking about UFO's, that can also be applied here:

 

Basically, he's talking about Brain Teaser puzzles and optical illusions. They shouldn't be called puzzles. They should be called Brain Failures - because ultimately, that's what an optical illusion is - it's your brain failing at seeing/comprehending something in front of you.

 

So when someone says "I just knew that firecracker was going to go off", I'm skeptical. Are they remembering correctly? No insult to them, but often times, we remember things incorrectly, and this creates confirmation bias.

 

Whether precognition is possible or not? I don't think it's possible to know "exactly" what will happen, since the future is a fluid concept. The future isn't set, as if I decide to go left instead of right, that changes the future. Rather, if precognition were a thing, it would be seeing "possible" futures, or perhaps the future that is "most likely" to happen. But in that case, we don't fully understand time yet - we theorize but we're not really 100% sure whether time is fluid, like I believe, or fixed.

 

It could also be that the future is fluid, while the past is fixed (For example, if you went back in time, all of that actually already happened, so you're not changing the future).

 

But that's a whole different topic.

Rather than calling time 'fluid', I try to see it as another 'dimension' (i.e. 1D object = point; 2D object = plane 3D object = solid; 4D object = solid in motion within 3D space, and so on)... an event in time so to speak can be definite once everything preceding it is 'defined' (something like Schrödinger's cat, sorry for not being aware of anything more advanced to explain this)...

thus a possible explanation for 'precognition' would be the conscious or subconscious observation of causes of certain events prior to the occurrence of said events...

with the firecracker example, the observer may have heard, even if faintly, the fuse of the firecracker sizzling, and through the human ability to conclude with incomplete information, he then predicts that the firecracker will explode... presence of information relaying the event of an explosion then confirms his prediction and absence of which negates his prediction...

One theory on magic that I've run into is that magic is something that forcibly manifests 'events' through the manipulation of a certain 'energy' using the human conscious and subconscious. By defining an event rather than the prerequisites (i.e. "that object is on fire" as opposed to "that object will catch fire because of..."), 'magic' therefore ignores causality and natural laws, which the universe later compensates for in order to return to 'normalcy' (i.e. the object that caught fire will become colder than before the fire was started)... another component to this theory is the function of the 'spell' as a tuning mechanism to synchronize the conscious and subconscious of the magic user in order to make the manifestation of an event possible... (this is what I can currently remember off the top of my head)

I may have read and written too much of the genre... oh boy...

Currently, I am not completely dismissing the supernatural as I have been healed once before through supernatural means (got taken to a local witch doctor to get treat a fever that won't go down despite continuous medication) and that there are indeed local evidence of supernatural events (i.e. "anting-anting")... I am just waiting for definite proof or disproof of such phenomena (possibly once humanity has mastery of quantum physics and other branches of thought that deal with higher-dimensional phenomena)...

Edit:

A lot of stuff (that I've encountered) on magic has to do with human cognition... it's nigh impossible to manipulate something outside of our cognitive abilities (i.e. the thought process of other humans)...

[TopWargamer]

You are either an idiot or a troll.

[AlwaysFSX]

Until you can define actions/reactions with scientific evidence of their possibility then you're just being delusional and should not be taken seriously, ever.

[Moondrelor]

Dalekphalm and Clanscorpia right now

 

100% accurate. 

[Sauron]

No, nobody's done anything close to me other than a scan where they literally described my life without knowing anything about me. You make the energy yourselves. Look up the definition of Psi

 

But what if current science can explain it. We have discovered very small amounts of our universe and can't explain very much. Maybe magick is 'scientific' but we just haven't discovered how to replicate it.

 

The thing about energy working is you have to think outside your brain. Moving your pre sence which is my specialty, but PK, damn almost nobody can actually do it

 

You cannot manufacture energy. It's been proven impossible by the laws of thermodynamics. You can convert and use it, but you can't make or destroy it. Same with matter.

 

As for describing your life without knowing anything, a lot of times people read profound personal significance in statements that are incredibly generic. I don't know what the scan said or what happened in your life, but a lot of things are easy to guess, especially if you're vague about them.

 

For something to be scientific it needs to be reliably observable by anyone. If there truly are people who can use magic, why hasn't any one of them come out and let themselves be observed while performing magic in a controlled environment? There are pretty strict laws on what you can and can't do to a test subject, they wouldn't dissect them or anything. You say you have a "specialty". Why not contact a researcher? If it has actual impact on anything it means it can be observed, and if it doesn't, you're just imagining it.

[Me1z]

Magic is simply technology that you do not yet understand. Unfortunately, writers of late have taken to using the concept of 'magic' as a crutch for lazy story writing. Every time I come across a plot where someone has powers or unusual abilities with no clear explanation I want to bash my head on a brick wall. Magic is not supposed to be an excuse for irrationality. They may seem to be complete opposites, but there's a reason that Sci-fi and fantasy are often paired together into a single category and its because to a degree they are one and the same. Sci-fi is fiction based on an extension of currently understood scientific principles, while fantasy is fiction based on fictional sciences. With this in mind, it is entirely possible for 'magic' to be real because there are still many things about the universe that we don't understand. If we were to come across a society that had, for example, already mastered quantum physics, then simple everyday activities for them would appear to be magical for us.

[rmac52]

If god's real, prove it.

You can't, same way with magic.

 

The way I see it, magic probably is't real, but it's nice to think that there is such thing as real magic. Like harry potter stuff. I don't believe in magic personally, but I still leave a very small opening for hope that some day it will become real. Because that would be really awesome.

Acctually you can. Like I said earlier; the burden of proof is on the person making a claim. I don't have to prove magic doesn't exist. The person saying it exists has to prove it's existence to me.

I can entertain the idea that all kinds of things exist. That's just not being closed minded. But that doesn't mean I will accept something exists with out proof.

[ICantThinkOfAnyGoodName]

Magic is simply technology that you do not yet understand. Unfortunately, writers of late have taken to using the concept of 'magic' as a crutch for lazy story writing. Every time I come across a plot where someone has powers or unusual abilities with no clear explanation I want to bash my head on a brick wall. Magic is not supposed to be an excuse for irrationality. They may seem to be complete opposites, but there's a reason that Sci-fi and fantasy are often paired together into a single category and its because to a degree they are one and the same. Sci-fi is fiction based on an extension of currently understood scientific principles, while fantasy is fiction based on fictional sciences. With this in mind, it is entirely possible for 'magic' to be real because there are still many things about the universe that we don't understand. If we were to come across a society that had, for example, already mastered quantum physics, then simple everyday activities for them would appear to be magical for us.

Actually sci sci-fi is also completely fictional sciences most of the time, with a few words from actual science thrown in there to make it sound like it's based on real science.

[rmac52]

The thing is with physics, maths, or any sort of humans like to call evidence and logical thinking is only logical within the human mind and our scope of understanding.

Unless you believe that humans are omniscient, we don't know everything. So the only thing we can do is make our best guess. That is essentially what our 'facts' are. A bunch of frizzy haired scientists got together and said hey we all drew similar conclusions so let's call this fact. However, fact is not absolute, it can be wrong. To say something is more right than another is simply saying something is more popular than another.

So while we bicker here about how magic is real or not real nobody really KNOWS. It's really just anyone's guess. This leads me to conclude that everything is magical. If you take a good hard look at life both the macro (universe) and micro (atomic) level, it truly is a, subjectively, magical place. Luckily, humans, unbeknownst to why (although I have my beliefs), have a far greater ability to reason than any other species. With this unique ability, we able to use tools like science to better understand our world.

Just my 2 cents.

In regards to the bit about facts.

Yes everything we understand about the universe is tainted by how humans think and perceive the world. I understand that. It's a branch of philosophy calleD metaphysics.

We can only perceive the universe in the way we can. It's a fallacy to say that we might be seeing something wrong therefore it's wrong.

I agree with most of your points. Your also defining magic as something completely different to what the op was talking about.

Edit: I hate typing on my phone. Please ignore any odd spelling or grammatical mistakes.

[dalekphalm]

Magic is simply technology that you do not yet understand. Unfortunately, writers of late have taken to using the concept of 'magic' as a crutch for lazy story writing. Every time I come across a plot where someone has powers or unusual abilities with no clear explanation I want to bash my head on a brick wall. Magic is not supposed to be an excuse for irrationality. They may seem to be complete opposites, but there's a reason that Sci-fi and fantasy are often paired together into a single category and its because to a degree they are one and the same. Sci-fi is fiction based on an extension of currently understood scientific principles, while fantasy is fiction based on fictional sciences. With this in mind, it is entirely possible for 'magic' to be real because there are still many things about the universe that we don't understand. If we were to come across a society that had, for example, already mastered quantum physics, then simple everyday activities for them would appear to be magical for us.

I actually really enjoy it when fantasy authors devise a logical magical system that has rules, a system, and those rules cannot be broken. My two favourite examples of them are The Wheel of Time series, and the Mistborn System.

[techswede]

I actually really enjoy it when fantasy authors devise a logical magical system that has rules, a system, and those rules cannot be broken. My two favourite examples of them are The Wheel of Time series, and the Mistborn System.

Trying that right now.. Really isn't easy..

[Unhelpful]

I actually really enjoy it when fantasy authors devise a logical magical system that has rules, a system, and those rules cannot be broken. My two favourite examples of them are The Wheel of Time series, and the Mistborn System.

Freaking love wheel of time

[dalekphalm]

Freaking love wheel of time

It's my all time favourite book series.

[Unhelpful]

It's my all time favourite book series.

Still mid-book 7. Had to take a break from it when I started work. Going to start back with it in June when I'm done with college

[Lavish]

magic weiner

[Philosobyte]

Sure, I mean, I don't believe in them in the sense that they're a... mysterious mystical substance veiled in mystery and shrouded in the unknown that only those with "oooooh, the Sight" can see. My belief in the spirit is a bit more material than that. We know that different forms of matter exist outside what we would consider "physical matter". Protons, neutrons, electrons, photons, leptons, quarks, muons, etc, those things are part of and affect our physical, "material" world. But neutrinos, WIMPs, Bosons and other exotic particles like that are things that either affect our physical world indirectly or not at all. Those particles pass straight through the subatomic particles in your body in droves without affecting them in any way. particles like the Higgs Boson, for example, blip in and out of existence so quickly and under such specific circumstances that for all intents and purposes, they don't "exist" in our material world most of the time. And even then, with our knowledge that they do exist, we know almost nothing about them, what they do, or why they're there. Most of what we have about these exotic forms of matter is just scientific and mathematical guesswork.

 

So my belief is that the spirit and things pertaining to the spirit are just another, higher form of matter, one that we can't detect even with our most sensitive instruments and our most powerful machines. But one that we can detect with our minds if we take the time to tune them enough. That's my feeling, anyway.

That's a respectable point of view. I don't share it, though, because I believe all the processes in our brains can likely be explained by conventional physics - the interactions in our brain are extremely complex, but they deal with only simple principles of chemistry, e.g. voltage gradients.  The more advanced quantum mechanics which take place in our brain as they take place in all matter would only have the effect of allowing conventional physics to occur. 

 

And with your point of view, there is a lot more to explain. Do bacteria have spirit? What about animals like ants/lobsters which likely don't feel emotion and instead follow almost-mathematical instincts? Do unborn fetuses have spirit? What happens to an organism's spirit at death? Considering that we can't even detect conventional matter in our brains, why would we be able to detect a higher form of matter? When you said that, did you really mean we could detect the effects of that higher form of matter? And if that last idea was what you really meant, then why must those effects be due to a higher form of matter rather than conventional matter?

[Sauron]

I actually really enjoy it when fantasy authors devise a logical magical system that has rules, a system, and those rules cannot be broken. My two favourite examples of them are The Wheel of Time series, and the Mistborn System.

 

<-------

[Clanscorpia]

You cannot manufacture energy. It's been proven impossible by the laws of thermodynamics. You can convert and use it, but you can't make or destroy it. Same with matter.

 

As for describing your life without knowing anything, a lot of times people read profound personal significance in statements that are incredibly generic. I don't know what the scan said or what happened in your life, but a lot of things are easy to guess, especially if you're vague about them.

 

For something to be scientific it needs to be reliably observable by anyone. If there truly are people who can use magic, why hasn't any one of them come out and let themselves be observed while performing magic in a controlled environment? There are pretty strict laws on what you can and can't do to a test subject, they wouldn't dissect them or anything. You say you have a "specialty". Why not contact a researcher? If it has actual impact on anything it means it can be observed, and if it doesn't, you're just imagining it.

I'm not saying you can produce energy, I'm saying I believe you can manipulate it. My 'specialty' is something lots of people have told me I could be great at but am currently 'OK' I can roughly describe an area someone who I've talked to is in with minor errors and without small objects or fine details. I've done it multiple times before. I also seem to be able to telepathicly communicate to a construct 'energy form'. I'm not testing it in a lab until I know I can do it, not sort of know. And I've had many experiences of people describing me to fine details barely knowing me.

[Nexxus]

Following thread for lulz