[The Escapist] Apple removes games from its online store due to use of Confederate Flags.

[Real_PhillBert]

My point was, it's not a debate that the US will even entertain. So they talk about flags instead.

 

Because a legally owned machine gun was used when, exactly? 

[othertomperson]

This is true. Although this is still idiotic historical white washing.

 

Well you could argue all day whether or not they are right to do it, just like you can argue that Valve's hasty judgement of Hatred did or didn't make sense.

 

I guess it just rubs me up the wrong way when people made demands of what a store should and shouldn't sell and cite "freedom" as their reasoning...

[Trik'Stari]

Well you could argue all day whether or not they are right to do it, just like you can argue that Valve's hasty judgement of Hatred did or didn't make sense.

 

I guess it just rubs me up the wrong way when people made demands of what a store should and shouldn't sell and cite "freedom" as their reasoning...

The only freedom involved is the right to debate whether or not this is a stupid move that makes no sense and demonstrates a complete lack of context and historical understanding.

 

Beyond that....Apple can do whatever they like, it's not like I can hate them any more than I already do lol

[othertomperson]

The only freedom involved is the right to debate whether or not this is a stupid move that makes no sense and demonstrates a complete lack of context and historical understanding.

 

I'm confused, who is stopping you from doing that?

[Trik'Stari]

I'm confused, who is stopping you from doing that?

No one (maybe SJW's calling me racist at a later point in time). I was agreeing with you.

[Murdoch]

Because a legally owned machine gun was used when, exactly? 

 

Look. This is why people can talk about flags, but can't discuss guns. And that's fine it's your country.

 

It's just weird to watch as an outsider looking in. A strange dynamic if you like.

[Trik'Stari]

Look. This is why people can talk about flags, but can't discuss guns.

Purposefully confusing the point and then using that as an example, does not count as a valid method of debate.

[Real_PhillBert]

Look. This is why people can talk about flags, but can't discuss guns.

 

I would argue that this discussion is equally stupid.

 

Both are analogous to trying to solve the highway death problem by banning boats. It has zero logic behind it.

 

The flag is not racist. The flag did not hurt anyone. The flag is an inanimate object that the left has fixated on because they made some hair-brained connection between it and the tragedy in South Carolina. 

[ShadowCaptain]

LOL Apple...let's see those fanboys try to defend this one..

 

I am an Apple fan, but I don't defend this

[othertomperson]

No one (maybe SJW's calling me racist at a later point in time). I was agreeing with you.

 

I know you're agreeing with my general point, but I think there are some subtleties here. For example SJWs are perfectly entitled to do that. They have freedom of speech too. and if they think you are being a racist scumbag, they're kind of entitled to say it. Even if they are wrong, and you're entitled to say that they are wrong and that they are idiots and really we're all entitled to not get along with eachother. We have the freedom to have opinions of eachother that aren't altogether positive.

 

The problem comes when these opinions become threats or harassment, or when State enforcement gets involved. But just telling someone to stfu isn't actually silencing them because there is no way of enforcing that.

[Murdoch]

I would argue that this discussion is equally stupid.

 

Both are analogous to trying to solve the highway death problem by banning boats. It has zero logic behind it.

 

The flag is not racist. The flag did not hurt anyone. The flag is an inanimate object that the left has fixated on because they made some hair-brained connection between it and the tragedy in South Carolina. 

 

I agree man, they pick an easy target, cause the root of the real "problems" are complex and deeply rooted.

[Real_PhillBert]

I agree man, they pick an easy target, cause the root of the real "problems" are complex and deeply rooted.

 

I am 100% with you on that one.

[stconquest]

@  I was going to mention better gun control but that is a can of worms I wanted to avoid.  I am one for tighter gun control, as I do believe citizens should have limited access to weapons.  But having laws like concealed carry or open carry bothers me a little.

 

I recently have been wondering why there are so many police shootings and a small part of me believes having officers know that anyone around them has the right to be carrying around weaponry just as powerful as theirs might be a factor... it might put them on edge in an already difficult occupation.

 

I can get some sources on police killings in the USA, the numbers are ridiculous.  Like 3-5 times the number of murders by citizens...

 

@Valentyn

 

The flag is not banned, nor any depiction of that symbol.

 

@Trik'Stari

 

The thing Trik, is that this is pretty much a non issue.... with the stores cleaning out any product with that symbol.  I mean really, it is not changing history or how people will remember/learn about it.  It is more closely related to a "socially responsible" act, a message.

[Trik'Stari]

I know you're agreeing with my general point, but I think there are some subtleties here. For example SJWs are perfectly entitled to do that. They have freedom of speech too. and if they think you are being a racist scumbag, they're kind of entitled to say it. Even if they are wrong, and you're entitled to say that they are wrong and that they are idiots and really we're all entitled to not get along with eachother. We have the freedom to have opinions of eachother that aren't altogether positive.

 

The problem comes when these opinions become threats or harassment, or when State enforcement gets involved. But just telling someone to stfu isn't actually silencing them because there is no way of enforcing that.

Oh I know all of that.. My issue with the SJW's is that they actively want to bring in state enforced censorship. At least in my experience.

 

0snip

 

@Trik'Stari

 

The thing Trik, is that this is pretty much a non issue.... with the stores cleaning out any product with that symbol.  I mean really, it is not changing history or how people will remember it.  It is more closely related to a "socially responsible" act, a message.

 

I'm aware of what their claims are, I merely disagree with them. A flag isn't racist, the person who killed those people is. This is just another stupid knee-jerk reaction to stupid people in media, nothing more.

 

Hypothetical: If I were to pose in front of a rainbow LBGT flag, then go out and kill a bunch of straight people, would that flag be banned? Probably not.

[stconquest]

Oh I know all of that.. My issue with the SJW's is that they actively want to bring in state enforced censorship. At least in my experience.

 

 

I'm aware of what their claims are, I merely disagree them. A flag isn't racist, the person who killed those people is. This is just another stupid knee-jerk reaction to stupid people in media, nothing more.

 

Hypothetical: If I were to pose in front of a rainbow LBGT flag, then go out and kill a bunch of straight people, would that flag be banned? Probably not.

 

I agree it is not a superbly smart decision for these stores, but I cannot disagree with the reasoning behind it.  Hate speech is very real, and prevalent in some circles.  These stores are just saying that they don't want to be associated with at least this circle.  In the end, it is not a big deal. 

 

How and why would the confederate flag be flying at government buildings?  That part of this I really did not understand.  The confederacy represents a bad time in the USA. 

[Trik'Stari]

I agree it is not a superbly smart decision for these stores, but I cannot disagree with the reasoning behind it.  Hate speech is very real, and prevalent in some circles.  These stores are just saying that they don't want to be associated with at least this circle.  In the end, it is not a big deal. 

 

How and why would the confederate flag be flying at government buildings?  that part I really did not understand.

You realize that that particular flag doesn't just represent racism and or hate speech yes? The American Civil war was not exclusively about slavery. Most of the states that attempted to break away, were already on their way to abolishing slavery. The issue was the overstepping of Federal Government authority, as well as the northern states wanting the southern states to pay more in taxes because they had better economies.

 

The Civil war was a lot more complex than these revisionists would have the masses believe. That's my issue with this. Historical revisionism is a bad idea, it only leads us to repeat the past, as well as creating lingering discord between the revisionists descendants and the descendants of those who's history was revised. An example: When I lived in Michigan, EVERYONE automatically assumed I was a racist because I was from the south, why? I blame the fact that the entire civil war is frequently summed up with one word: slavery.

[stconquest]

You realize that that particular flag doesn't just represent racism and or hate speech yes? The American Civil war was not exclusively about slavery. Most of the states that attempted to break away, were already on their way to abolishing slavery. The issue was the overstepping of Federal Government authority, as well as the northern states wanting the southern states to pay more in taxes because they had better economies.

 

The Civil war was a lot more complex than these revisionists would have the masses believe. That's my issue with this.

 

I personally understand that the civil war was not only about "freeing the slaves".  There were many elements regarding the economic future of the country that were up for debate, and apparently worth fighting over.  A mild example of: "history is written by the victors".

 

That flag/symbol represents whatever people choose to make it represent.  It is just colored patterns to me. 

 

I found the source relating police killings.  What are your thoughts?  Does having laws to allow concealed carry and open carry cause police to be extra "jumpy"?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries

[Trik'Stari]

I personally understand that the civil war was not only about "freeing the slaves".  There were many elements regarding the economic future of the country that were up for debate, and apparently worth fighting over.  A mild example of: "history is written by the victors".

 

That flag/symbol represent whatever people choose to make it represent.  It is just colored patterns to me. 

 

I found the source relating police killings.  What are your thoughts?  Does having laws to allow concealed carry and open carry cause police to be extra "jumpy"?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries

I don't think that it does. I open carry all the time, cops usually glance at you then don't seem to care because you're actively following the law (you need a license to conceal carry in Virginia. Which means if your gun is in a holster on your hip, then your shirt had better not be hanging over it). Normally, if I'm standing in line with them, they ask me about my gun and tell me about theirs. Also, I've heard quite a few anecdotes wherein a conceal carry person has been pulled over for speeding or something, and when the cop comes up to the window they have immediately said "officer, for your safety and mine, I want to inform you that I am a licensed conceal carry permit holder, I do have a loaded weapon in the vehicle *tells what it is, where it is*" and the cops have actually let them go with a warning and a thank you.

 

Personally, I think a lot of incidents of police shootings would go down if drug laws were changed. Particularly marijuana, as that constitutes about 50% of drug arrests as well as the number of people in prison on drug charges.

[stconquest]

I don't think that it does. I open carry all the time, cops usually glance at you then don't seem to care because you're actively following the law (you need a license to conceal carry in Virginia. Which means if your gun is in a holster on your hip, then your shirt had better not be hanging over it). Normally, if I'm standing in line with them, they ask me about my gun and tell me about theirs. Also, I've heard quite a few anecdotes wherein a conceal carry person has been pulled over for speeding or something, and when the cop comes up to the window they have immediately said "officer, for your safety and mine, I want to inform you that I am a licensed conceal carry permit holder, I do have a loaded weapon in the vehicle *tells what it is, where it is*" and the cops have actually let them go with a warning and a thank you.

 

Personally, I think a lot of incidents of police shootings would go down if drug laws were changed. Particularly marijuana, as that constitutes about 50% of drug arrests as well as the number of people in prison on drug charges.

 

That is just so freaky to me.  I have never experienced anything like that.  The closest would be standing next to a cop, lol.

 

Drug war.... another can of worms.

[Real_PhillBert]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/09/the-counted-police-killings-us-vs-other-countries

 

This was not directed at me, so I hope you don't mind me interjecting a bit.

 

Every police officer I have had contact with since I started carrying a concealed weapon has thanked me for carrying. Admittedly that does not apply to everyone. For the sake of clarity, three interactions in two different states.

[Trik'Stari]

That is just so freaky to me.  I have never experienced anything like that.  The closest would be standing next to a cop, lol.

 

Drug war.... another can of worms.

Not really. Cops aren't all bad, it depends a lot on your attitude. You come into an interaction with them, with a shitty attitude, you're going to get one back. Which is true with most non police officers as well.

 

This was not directed at me, so I hope you don't mind me interjecting a bit.

 

Every police officer I have had contact with since I started carrying a concealed weapon has thanked me for carrying.

^this. I've spoken to a lot of cops over the years, and when I used to deliver pizza, they would follow me and park behind me in the bad area's of the city I was in. I once asked why and they said "because you're insane to come to this area at night without a gun". One of our drivers from another store on the other side of the city actually got his face beaten in with a crowbar over $20 and a couple pizza's. Spent a few weeks in the hospital, somehow Domino's didn't have to pay for any of it. (now THAT is a problem)

[stconquest]

This was not directed at me, so I hope you don't mind me interjecting a bit.

 

Every police officer I have had contact with since I started carrying a concealed weapon has thanked me for carrying. Admittedly that does not apply to everyone. For the sake of clarity, three interactions in two different states.

 

I talk to my cousin about this, no open carry here... but he likes his new "toys" (AR, 1911, .22 rifle for cheap thrills at the range).  I end up referring to him owning guns is not bad at all, he is quite level headed.  Not everyone is though, and the more guns available... the more of the people that should not have these weapons, get their hands on them.

 

..not including illegal weapons though.

 

He has been on about moving to Arizona for a while now.

[Real_PhillBert]

I talk to my cousin about this, no open carry here... but he likes his new "toys" (AR, 1911, .22 rifle for cheap thrills at the range).  I end up referring to him owning guns is not bad at all, he is quite level headed.  Not everyone is though, and the more guns available... the more of the people that should not have these weapons, get their hands on them.

 

..not including illegal weapons though.

 

I do not do open carry, I concealed carry.

 

My problem with the argument you just used is that we already have a ton of laws that the government is either choosing not to enforce or making it difficult to follow the law.

 

Start enforcing the gun laws that are already on the books before passing any new ones.

[stconquest]

I do not do open carry, I concealed carry.

 

My problem with the argument you just used is that we already have a ton of laws that the government is either choosing not to enforce or making it difficult to follow the law.

 

Start enforcing the gun laws that are already on the books before passing any new ones.

 

This is interesting, how so?  What kind of laws?

[Trik'Stari]

I do not do open carry, I concealed carry.

 

My problem with the argument you just used is that we already have a ton of laws that the government is either choosing not to enforce or making it difficult to follow the law.

 

Start enforcing the gun laws that are already on the books before passing any new ones.

Agreed.

 

This is interesting, how so?  What kind of laws?

 

We already have background checks. If you buy a gun from a gun store, you have to go through a background check. If you buy a gun at a gun show from a booth, you have to go through a background check (the "gun show loophole" is nothing more than person to person cash transactions....which can occur anywhere). Some states have waiting periods (you buy the gun then you have to wait X amount of days before you can take possession)

 

One of the major issues is the lack of funding in the background check system. Some people, it takes a few days for their background check to go through, while others (like me ) get instant approval. All because (and this is according to the people at my local gun store) there are only 2 or 3 employees who do background checks....for the entire state of Virginia.

 

A LOT of the problems in the US are the result of some group passing a law, and another group not liking it and stripping it of all funding, creating a broken system. Our immigration problem? Entirely caused by the US government no longer issuing seasonal migrant worker Visa's (which was actually done by the Democrat party), and not properly funding and streamlining the immigration department.