Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
ColinLTT

I’ve been water cooling wrong for YEARS - $H!T Manufacturers Say

Recommended Posts

Posted · Original PosterOP

Apparently stacking radiators is bad -- According to the brains over at Corsair, so we built a water cooled gaming rig to test their theory.

 

 

 

 

Buy Intel 9900KS
On Amazon (PAID LINK): https://geni.us/RyZyZQ5

 

Buy Corsair Vengeance RGB RAM
On Amazon (PAID LINK): https://geni.us/uxWIG
On Newegg (PAID LINK): https://geni.us/3HfM0Ii

 

Buy EK Reservoirs
On Amazon (PAID LINK): https://geni.us/YubShVJ
On Newegg (PAID LINK): https://geni.us/kPLy

 

Buy EK Coolstream SE 240mm
On Amazon (PAID LINK): https://geni.us/bZQBl
On Newegg (PAID LINK): https://geni.us/VUjAIu

 

Buy EK Vector RTX 2080Ti
On Amazon (PAID LINK): https://geni.us/aeSlS
On Newegg (PAID LINK): https://geni.us/axcLVv2

Link to post
Share on other sites

I might watch this video, Ive thought about stacking a series of 240mm rads I have but the only thing that was stopping me is how horrid the zip ties look to get them to sandwich together (didnt dig into other ways to get them stacked with fans inbetween yet)


Workstation Laptop: Dell Precision 7540, Xeon E-2276M, 32gb DDR4, Quadro T2000 GPU, 4k display

Ryzen Rig 2: ASrock B450 Pro4 ATX, Ryzen 7 1700 @ 4.2ghz all core 1.4vCore, AMD R9 Fury X w/ Swiftech KOMODO waterblock, Custom Loop 2x240mm + 1x120mm radiators in push/pull 16gb (2x8) 3600mhz V-Color Skywalker (or 4x8gb DDR4 2666mhz for large tasks), Corsair HX850 PSU, 128gb Patriot Scorch NVMe Win 10 boot drive, 500gb Samsung 840 EVO SSD, 512GB TeamGroup MS30 M.2 SATA III, CoolerMaster HAF XM Case.  Zalman K600S keyboard, Zalman ZM-GM1 mouse, Hannspree HF207 and Acer AL2016W monitors

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/37004594?

Ryzen Rig 1: ASUS B350-PRIME ATX, Ryzen 7 1700, Sapphire R9 Fury Tri-X Nitro 4gb HBM, 16gb (2x8) 3200mhz V-Color Skywalker, ANTEC Earthwatts 750w PSU, MasterLiquid Lite 120 AIO cooler in Push/Pull config as rear exhaust, 250gb Samsung 850 Evo SSD, Patriot Burst 240gb SSD, Cougar MX330-X Case.  Zalman K600S keyboard, Zalman ZM-GM1 mouse, Acer XF270HU 2560x1440 144hz IPS monitor

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/37628874?

Dwight: The Mixed Metals Loop Media Center.  Ask me about it.  Currently decommissioned to move to an mATX setup on a new MOBO once I pick one out (getting its facelift as of June 2020 have new air cooler, drives etc.  About 60% finished.  Will no longer be a closed loop system.

Schrute: ASUS M5A99FX Pro R2.0, FX 8350, Sapphire R9 Fury Tri-X Nitro 4gb HBM, 16gb (4x4) Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600mhz, Sparkle/FSP 650w PSU, Corsair H100i GTX 240mm AIO w/ 12mm thick fans to fit in top exhaust, 256gb TIMETEC SSD, 1tb WDBlack HDD, Rosewill Nautilus 1.0 case.  DSI 90-Key Mechanical Keyboard w/ Cherry Red switches, Generic mouse, 37" 1080p TV

Micro Form Factor Dell OptiPlex 3040: Dell 0MGK50 A02, i3-6100T, 2x4gb DDR3 1600, Team Group 120gb SSD, 500gb Seagate 7mm HDD attached storage, Windows 10 Pro, Logitech K400+, USB Wifi adapter all vesa mounted to the back of a 37" 1080p TV for form factor in the kitchen

Linux Box: Toshiba Laptop, i7 620M, NVS graphics, 4gb ram tinker toy at the moment.  Running Manjaro XFCE at the moment.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not a scientist but my theory is that corsair's theory is only true in 1 scenario.

It can only ruin temps for one loop. If you have 2 loops, 1 very hot loop (let's call it loop A) and 1 very cold one (loop B). And a specific rad config (a very stupid one).

If you place the rads for the loop as follows: fan -> rad loop A -> fan -> rad loop B -> fan.

My theory is that once the air leaves rad A, it's hotter than the water temp of rad B which causes loop B to heat up instead of cooling down.

But eventually you will reach a thermal point in loop B that's likely around the same temp as loop A and from that point it will no longer keep heating up.

 

It's basically heating a loop with the heat from another loop at this point.


If you want my attention, quote meh! D: or just stick an @samcool55 in your post :3

Spying on everyone to fight against terrorism is like shooting a mosquito with a cannon

Link to post
Share on other sites

I joined the especially for this forum since I really like physics but I can really follow corsairs theory here. But in reality their theory only makes sense when the radiators are mounted really close together with bad airflow I think. There has to be a balance between the amount of airflow which decreases with an increasing amount of radiators (if you do not increase the amount of fans) and the amount of radiators. I would really like to see how the system would perform without an increasing amount of fans and just putting two radiators behind each other. I think the results will be less clear, sure the temperatures would rise slower, but at thermal eq. It should be just the same if the radiators are airtightly connected. 

So to be short the test of Linus was doomed to fail (establish his theory) since you did not only increase the amount of radiators but you increased the amount of airflow.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Original PosterOP
2 minutes ago, Davy12 said:

I joined the especially for this forum since I really like physics but I can really follow corsairs theory here. But in reality their theory only makes sense when the radiators are mounted really close together with bad airflow I think. There has to be a balance between the amount of airflow which decreases with an increasing amount of radiators (if you do not increase the amount of fans) and the amount of radiators. I would really like to see how the system would perform without an increasing amount of fans and just putting two radiators behind each other. I think the results will be less clear, sure the temperatures would rise slower, but at thermal eq. It should be just the same if the radiators are airtightly connected. 

So to be short the test of Linus was doomed to fail (establish his theory) since you did not only increase the amount of radiators but you increased the amount of airflow.

The number of fans did not change during testing - only their location. The two fans you see top mounted in the dual rad test were internally mounted for the single rad test. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ColinLTT said:

The number of fans did not change during testing - only their location. The two fans you see top mounted in the dual rad test were internally mounted for the single rad test. 

 

Ah so very interesting. But it could disperse the heat two times as fast since it has two radiators which we can thus, as proven by linus, view as nearly independent cooling systems. But I would still be very interesting to see the same set up with two radiators mounted behind each other.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So, i just watched the video and i have 2 comments, i would say water flow has a lot to say here as well, if you the loop goes:

CPU -> GPU -> front rad(intake) -> top rad(exhaust) -> pump -> 

vs

CPU -> GPU -> top rad(exhaust) -> front rad(intake) -> pump ->

 

as the last will will be able to cool batter as it has a higher delta T for both rads.

 

Just my two cents. would like to see something like this as well for the Minecraft server build with flow back to front rad and front to back rad.


Desktop 4670k, RTX 2060, 32 GB ram, ssds storage

Server: 3570k, GTX 1660. 16 GB ram, 42 TB spinning Storage & 2 TB ssd cache and boot drive.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Davy12 said:

Ah so very interesting. But it could disperse the heat two times as fast since it has two radiators which we can thus, as proven by linus, view as nearly independent cooling systems. But I would still be very interesting to see the same set up with two radiators mounted behind each other.

I agree i also just joined to warn linus of this, as can be seen in that glimpse email from corsair, they were commenting about the "stacked" radiators as in fan and rads next to each other ziptied with almost "no airflow in between". In the video you added another rad not stacked up againts it meaning yes by your theory air from the outside influenced the internal temprature making it work however, in the situation of the mc server where theyre stacked and have no breathing room it will be entirely different 

image.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have two 240 radiators as Alphacool kits. One for Vega 64 and the other for 1920X. I wanted to put the Vega radiator on top of the case as it would be hottest more often while gaming but the tubes weren't that long, so I had to put it at the front panel and CPU at the top.

At max synthetic synthetic load the whole PC got kind of hot (like 60C). What I could also do is combine the loops due to Alphacool connectors (vega -> rad -> CPU -> rad ->). That did lower the temps on the GPU while CPU was bit warmer due to that.:

 

gpu.thumb.png.37f64e0ced79d333a313697384229fef.png

 

Yet the fans had to work on mid-high RPM. Now I have the rig on Streacom BC1 and the system is pretty much noiseless as both rads get ambient air and use lower RPM.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think your bench test is valid to demonstrate Corsair's point

1)most the heat generated in the box (CPU and GC) is going in the water, not in the case. the only heat you are picking up is maybe the RAM, VRM, and PSU... you can check that mesuring a delta temperature between inside and outside the box.

2) from what is shown on the video, 2 radiators stacked one behind the other is what is bugging Corsair. and rightfully so. puting them in series makes rad #2 see all the hot air of rad #1... ending up having 2 rads performing almost the same a 1, (but paying for 2)... what would REALY be efficient, is having them set in parralel. one next to the other both seing fresh air. thats were having 2 rads becomes worth it.... 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to see a better video of this.

 

This one seemed, 1, extremely short, 2, not very scientific, and 3, limited to a scenario which was entirely different to the one that corsair highlited as being an issue.


I would like to see a recreation of the actual case builds that corsair highlighted as being a problem and then a proper gamult of testing to see whether there is actually any difference, with perhaps some variations thrown in.

 

My summation is: good idea for a video, given current situation, probably wasn't in a position to fulfil the potential.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Doommius said:

So, i just watched the video and i have 2 comments, i would say water flow has a lot to say here as well, if you the loop goes:

CPU -> GPU -> front rad(intake) -> top rad(exhaust) -> pump -> 

vs

CPU -> GPU -> top rad(exhaust) -> front rad(intake) -> pump ->

 

as the last will will be able to cool batter as it has a higher delta T for both rads.

 

Just my two cents. would like to see something like this as well for the Minecraft server build with flow back to front rad and front to back rad.

Once the system gets to thermal eq. Which we saw was pretty fast under high load the loop itself should not matter anymore I think.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Dravinian said:

I would like to see a better video of this.

 

This one seemed, 1, extremely short, 2, not very scientific, and 3, limited to a scenario which was entirely different to the one that corsair highlited as being an issue.


I would like to see a recreation of the actual case builds that corsair highlighted as being a problem and then a proper gamult of testing to see whether there is actually any difference, with perhaps some variations thrown in.

 

My summation is: good idea for a video, given current situation, probably wasn't in a position to fully the potential.

I agree I want to see a full scientific study and the results better have some fancy error bars too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I really think this whole thing has more to do with. Corsair Simulating with the "Perfect scenario". Where the heat exchange on their intake rad  that is first in the loop is enough to heat up the air that a second radiator that acts as an exhaust rad can not dissipate any more heat. It's just the wrong setup. I would like to know how your chassis temperatures were. And I am not a water cooling guy but hear me out. Would having the exhaust fan as the first radiator in the loop. Using the warmer but still cool enough air in the chassis the get some heat away from the loop. And having the intake fan be the second in the loop. Having to deal with lower temps and cooler air not be the optimal solution? I think about that with the radiator stacked server as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Doommius said:

So, i just watched the video and i have 2 comments, i would say water flow has a lot to say here as well, if you the loop goes:

CPU -> GPU -> front rad(intake) -> top rad(exhaust) -> pump -> 

vs

CPU -> GPU -> top rad(exhaust) -> front rad(intake) -> pump ->


JZ2cents did a video on it and found negligible difference

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, haxfar said:


JZ2cents did a video on it and found negligible difference

 

He is not talking about the general order in the system. More about who gets to dump the heat first in a closed chassie. Jayz video with the open workbench is something different.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, masamoto said:

He is not talking about the general order in the system. More about who gets to dump the heat first in a closed chassie. Jayz video with the open workbench is something different.

 

3 minutes ago, haxfar said:


JZ2cents did a video on it and found negligible difference

 

 

8 minutes ago, Davy12 said:

Once the system gets to thermal eq. Which we saw was pretty fast under high load the loop itself should not matter anymore I think.

Yeah, I'd assume doing something like this in a close cabinet,

Loop.png


Desktop 4670k, RTX 2060, 32 GB ram, ssds storage

Server: 3570k, GTX 1660. 16 GB ram, 42 TB spinning Storage & 2 TB ssd cache and boot drive.

Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 on what exactly is corsairs mesh, physics setup and results.

 

Reporting seemingly no difference between side panel on or off is a bit suspect and imo warrants further looking in to.

 

I would like to know if there's a significant difference between running a 2* 240 and 360 +120.

The 360 should give a positive pressure and only leaving heated air for the exhaust, whereas the 2* 240mm (and possible location) might have the exhaust able to pull in non-heated air.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Doommius said:

 

 

Yeah, I'd assume doing something like this in a close cabinet,

Loop.png

I wonder why would you have some fans sucking hot air in? I would mount all those fans going through a rad going out. Get some fans on the back sucking fresh air in.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Davy12 said:

I wonder why would you have some fans sucking hot air in? I would mount all those fans going through a rad going out. Get some fans on the back sucking fresh air in.

Dust, most cases have filters front and bottom. 


Desktop 4670k, RTX 2060, 32 GB ram, ssds storage

Server: 3570k, GTX 1660. 16 GB ram, 42 TB spinning Storage & 2 TB ssd cache and boot drive.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Doommius said:

Dust, most cases have filters front and bottom. 

Ah, shows I'm a pc noob, but why not just make the bottom one's blowing in?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Modeling thermal behavior is frankly far from trivial.
Adding a second radiator will generally increase surface area and offer more potential for the air to snatch heat from the water.

The second radiator will also add more thermal mass, but that is another can of worms since it isn't useful for all workloads.

 

Though, I can't agree with Corsair's statement that the air will be nearly the same as the water in the loop, since then one must have a fairly efficient radiator design. (Either thick radiators or low air speed, or a combination) How large the temperature difference is in practice can be measured so it can be worth while taking a look at. (Airspeed must though be taken in consideration for it to be a proper study though)


Also, placing radiators so that the warmest radiators gets to see the warmest air is usually a good idea to implement. (counter flow heat exchangers are a rather useful design to follow.)

In the end, as long as the radiators aren't restricting air flow (ie have fans), then it shouldn't be a major issue to toss in more of them.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Davy12 said:

Ah, shows I'm a pc noob, but why not just make the bottom one's blowing in?

In this cases they were testing normally you would probably do this if you aren't in a super dusty environment, personally i'm sucking in front and button, exhaust by the cpu in the back and side panel taped over with duck tape as to not suck dust in.


Desktop 4670k, RTX 2060, 32 GB ram, ssds storage

Server: 3570k, GTX 1660. 16 GB ram, 42 TB spinning Storage & 2 TB ssd cache and boot drive.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone know what case was used there?

 

Am using a *fanless* PC and looking for an open / mesh case that supports natural convection, has enough space for my big passive cooling blocks and some 5,25" bays to update usb front connectors in the future. Seems that the case in this video would suit.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Corsairs model seems to be over estimating how efficient the rads are. I don't think any rad would take say 40C water with 20C air and turn it into 39C air and lower the water temp. There also maybe a point that a single bigger (360 or 420 or 480) is better than 2 240 but that would mean a lot more testing which I'd love to see.


Good luck, Have fun, Build PC, and have a last gen console for use once a year. I should answer most of the time between 9 to 3 PST

NightHawk 2.0: R7 2700 @4.0ghz, B450m Steel Legends, H105, 4x8gb Gell EVO 2866, XFX RX 580 8GB, Corsair RM750X, 500 gb 850 evo, 500gb 850 pro and 5tb Toshiba x300

Skunkworks: R5 3500U, 16gb, 250 intel 730, 500gb Adata XPG 6000 lite, Vega 8. HP probook G455R G6

Condor (MC server): 6600K, z170m plus, 16gb corsair vengeance LPX, samsung 750 evo, EVGA BR 450.

Bearcat (F@H box) core 2 duo, 1x4gb EEC DDR2, 250gb WD blue, 9800GTX+, STRIX 660ti, supermicro PSU, dell T3400.

Rappter(unfinished compute server) HP DL380G6 2xE5520 24GB ram with 4x146gb 10k drives and 4x300gb 10K drives, running NOTHING can't get anything to work

Spirt  (unfinished NAS) Cisco Security Multiservices Platform server e5420 12gb ram, 1x6 1tb raid 6 for plex + Need funding 16+1 2tb raid 6 for mass storage.

PSU Tier List      Motherboard Tier List      How to get PC parts cheap    HP probook 445R G6 review

 

"Stupidity is like trying to find a limit of a constant. You are never truly smart in something, just less stupid."  @CircleTech

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×