Ultimate overkill

[Leon Ramesa]

Linus could a possibly chat with you? I want to build a benchmark killer but I am not sure about some bottlenecks that might occur and I don't want to bottlenecks anything.

 

I'm looking to put anywhere between 8 and 16 Samsung's 970 Evo plus ssds (250gb) in raid zero.

Now, ddr5 has throughput of 32gb/s. My question is: is that for a single Chanel, would that be 64gbs for dual Chanel or 128gbs for quad channel memory.

Would there be a bottlenecks in the chipset?

Would there be a bottlenecks in the pcie?

Would there be a bottlenecks in the CPU?

Also I would put 32gb of ddr5  for caching.

Any word of smt4 for ryzen threadpiper?

Also I would use one or two best amds gpus at the time.

And what do you think about water-cooling CPU and gpus separately, would that effective double the cooling performance?

 

I know it's a lot of questions, but I would appreciate any help I could get. I really plan on doing this in 2 or three years.

 

I will be following this post.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

Ok, so after considering the comments ill go for something like:

Ryzen 7 3800x

corsair 150i pro

Asus strix x570e gaming

32gb corsair dominator ddr5(im building the pc next summer, so i hope itll be out by then, same goes for the graphics card, probably a newer cpu and mb, this is just an aproximation)

rx 5900xt

seasonic 1200w prime platinum

i alreadi have fractal define r6

i already have 970 evo 250gb but i might go for

970 evo plus 500gb

i already have 4tb of hdds 

 

what do you think

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Leon Ramesa
Taking in consideration the comments.

[Princess Luna]

1 minute ago, Leon Ramesa said:

I'm looking to put anywhere between 8 and 16 Samsung's 970 Evo plus ssds (250gb) in raid zero.

That would be one of the biggest money waste I've seen on this forum this month.

[Leon Ramesa]

4 minutes ago, Princess Luna said:

That would be one of the biggest money waste I've seen on this forum this month.

What was the biggest waste of money last month?

[spartaman64]

7 minutes ago, Leon Ramesa said:

 

I'm looking to put anywhere between 8 and 16 Samsung's 970 Evo plus ssds (250gb) in raid zero.

 

https://www.newegg.com/asus-knpa-u16-amd-epyc-7000-series/p/N82E16813119178

or even better get a motherboard like this and put in 2TB of ram and use some of them as a ramdisk

[Likwid]

12 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

https://www.newegg.com/asus-knpa-u16-amd-epyc-7000-series/p/N82E16813119178

or even better get a motherboard like this and put in 2TB of ram and use some of them as a ramdisk

seperate ram disk on each dimm and then raid 0

[Leon Ramesa]

14 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

https://www.newegg.com/asus-knpa-u16-amd-epyc-7000-series/p/N82E16813119178

or even better get a motherboard like this and put in 2TB of ram and use some of them as a ramdisk

Ram is volatile, I would have to copy everything to ramdisk on a daily basis, doesn't work for me, but maybe, if there is too much bottleneck on the chipset. Thanks

[Roswell]

What's the use case?

[mariushm]

28 minutes ago, Leon Ramesa said:

Linus could a possibly chat with you? I want to build a benchmark killer but I am not sure about some bottlenecks that might occur and I don't want to bottlenecks anything.

 

I'm looking to put anywhere between 8 and 16 Samsung's 970 Evo plus ssds (250gb) in raid zero.

That's kinda dumb. You'll increase the sequential transfer speed, but small reads and writes will remain slowish once you get to a high enough number. 

 

Threadripper has 64 pci-e lanes, out of which 4 are reserved for the connection to chipset. So you are left with 60 pci-e lanes.

Most motherboards support bifurcation, at least into 2 x8, but some support 4 x4 - that's how those Hyper M.2 cards from Asus work, they take a pci-e x16 slot and take advantage of bifurcation support to split the 16 lanes into 4  x4 groups, for 4 M.2 SSDs.

 

So in theory, you could have 60 / 4 = 15 M.2 SSDs. In practice, probably not all pci-e slots will support bifurcation, or some pci-e lanes are used internally on the board for stuff like 10g ethernet, extra usb 3.1 gen 2 controllers etc.

 

But even if you do get to install those M.2 SSDs, I'm not sure you can do a RAID 0 with M.2 drives. If you can, I doubt you can do it with SSDs on multiple pci-e slots.. 

 

28 minutes ago, Leon Ramesa said:

Now, ddr5 has throughput of 32gb/s. My question is: is that for a single Chanel, would that be 64gbs for dual Chanel or 128gbs for quad channel memory.

DDR5 is in the future. If you're thinking of GDDR5, that's for video cards. Right now we're using DDR4

 

DDR4 transfers at a maximum  of 2 bits per Hz x interface bus width x real frequency.

 

If we go with something realistic like 3000 Mhz, we have real frequency of 1500 Mhz and each memory stick is 64 bit wide, so the maximum transfer speed would be 1,500,000,000 Hz x 2 bits per Hz x 64 bit wide bus = 192,000,000,000 bits per second or 24,000,000,000 bytes/s = 24 GB/s or 22.35 GiB/s

Dual channel means CPU reads and writes from 2 memory sticks at same time, so maximum theoretic speeds of 48 GB/s ... for quad channel DDR4 you would have 96 GB /s maximum theoretical speed... again, for 3000 Mhz memory sticks (1500 Mhz real frequency)

These are theoretical maximums, in real world you're probably gonna get within 90-95% of these numbers with long sequential transfers. If you read and write data randomly in RAM, just like with SSDs and hard drives, you won't get these speeds.

Each time the processor makes a  request to get some data or put some data in memory, the RAM spends a few of those Hz to "get ready" and then it can accept a flow of bits from processor, or send a burst of bits to the processor.

The more random requests, the more the ram will waste time preparing to do stuff, or look up data in the memory cells.

 

Theres also other technicalities , like for example if a core on Threadripper requests data from ram that's on the memory controller on the other CCX then you may have increased latency when reading data from that ram stick... it's beyond the scope of this post

 

28 minutes ago, Leon Ramesa said:

Would there be a bottlenecks in the chipset?

Chipset connects to the CPU with a pci-e x4 link, which means 4 GB/s (for pci-e 3.0)... with pci-e 4.0, you may have double.

If you read from a M.2 SSD that's connected to chipset and from 4-6 SATA SSDs at the same time, you may saturate the 4 GB/s going to the CPU.

28 minutes ago, Leon Ramesa said:

Would there be a bottlenecks in the pcie?

Would there be a bottlenecks in the CPU?

You would probably have bottlenecks in the Infinity fabric (the connection that links pci-e to cpu and ram) on AMD systems and on Intel there's something similar. I don't know the peak values.

28 minutes ago, Leon Ramesa said:

Also I would put 32gb of ddr5  for caching.

Any word of smt4 for ryzen threadpiper?

There's no such thing as ddr5 yet , as least for AMD systems.

No SMT4 on threadripper.  Milan (the EPYC cpus after Rome) were supposed to get it, but didn't see it in latest roadmaps.

Either way, SMT4 is in theory worst for peak performance, but better for throughput ... if you want to win benchmarks you don't want SMT4

28 minutes ago, Leon Ramesa said:

Also I would use one or two best amds gpus at the time.

nvidia cards would be higher performance at the moment. Even though AMD has pci-e 4.0, the nvidia cards are faster with pci-e 3.0 at the moment.

If AMD releases something better than 5700xt, maybe you'd go with that.

There's also professional radeon cards with 16 GB or 32 GB of memory and on which you could install an additional SSD to store textures and stuff without going through the pci-e bus to local ram and storage

Unless you have applications that can fill more than 8 GB of video card memory such cards would be useless to you

28 minutes ago, Leon Ramesa said:

And what do you think about water-cooling CPU and gpus separately, would that effective double the cooling performance?

Won't make much of a difference. you can get 7000 rpm delta fans and cool stuff system better than using watercooling, would be noisy but cooler. 

But for the M.2s some fans blowing air over them will be enough. Video cards, same story, they could work just fine with air cooling.

There's other solutions that work better than liquid cooling, like that 3M  liquid which would allow you to submerge everything in that liquid and cool better.

 

[Leon Ramesa]

5 hours ago, mariushm said:

-snip-

Smt4 or not, I'm good either way, I'm looking to build this in a couple of years so ddr5 is gonna be available. I'm looking to futurproof(I know there's no such thing) this machine for about 10 years and most importantly build something I'd be proud of, something that I can show off and something that I can use to draw customer later on as I am looking forward to making money from building PC's.

 

4 hours ago, Leon Ramesa said:

Smt4 or not, I'm good either way, I'm looking to build this in a couple of years so ddr5 is gonna be available. I'm looking to futurproof(I know there's no such thing) this machine for about 10 years and most importantly build something I'd be proud of, something that I can show off and something that I can use to draw customer later on as I am looking forward to making money from building PC's.

Also I'm looking to hit 100fps in 4k later 8k

[Zando_]

4 minutes ago, Leon Ramesa said:

Also I'm looking to hit 100fps in 4k later 8k

Just wanna note uh... there is a slight difference between 4K and 8K in terms of how hard they are to run... 

[dizmo]

There's no point in even thinking about stuff like this until you're ready to build, especially if you're talking about years down the line. Way too much will change. We have no idea what products will come out or what their performance will be. You didn't even think of Intel GPUs which may crush what AMDs got. 

 

I don't think there's much point in RAID0 that many drives. Larger SSDs get better performance, so you're already at a deficit there. Plus you're exponentially increasing the risk of failure for what? Performance that means nothing in real world use? 

 

Customers will be impressed with the value you provide. Excellent service, excellent prices. Not that you can dump tons of money into something pointless. On a side note, don't count on that as primary income. You can make money, sure, but it's not a living. 

 

It's fun to dream, but really, you're not going to get anything useful. Merely wild speculation. 

[akio123008]

2 minutes ago, Leon Ramesa said:

Also I'm looking to hit 100fps in 4k later 8k

In what?

 

You don't appear to be an extremely wealthy person who can just throw away money like this. What on earth makes you want to do this? Have you considered the other things you could do with the astronomic amount this would cost you?

6 minutes ago, Leon Ramesa said:

build something I'd be proud of

There's nothing to be proud of here; anyone with a load of money could get expensive stuff and show off. There's no extra skill or knowledge required. Just the fact that it's more expensive, doesn't make its existence more impressive than that of some cheap rig (and perhaps the cheap rig is actually more impressive depending on how good the deal was)

You could be proud of the ability to afford the thing (basically how rich you are), but then you don't even need a computer, you may as well buy a block of pure gold. 

16 minutes ago, Leon Ramesa said:

something that I can show off and something that I can use to draw customer later on as I am looking forward to making money from building PC's.

That's one hell of an expensive item for drawing customers' attention. Also about building computers for a living (if that's your plan) that's perhaps harder than you'd think. Building computers is great as a learning process, and I recommend everyone does it, but it's not exactly a skill anyone is looking for; unless you want a job at an assembly line.

 

Most people just buy laptops and prebuilts, and this especially goes for the enterprise. Those who are savvy enough to know that they want a custom rig, are often clever enough to build the thing themselves, or they already know someone who can do it for them. This leaves an extremely small market segment for folks who "want to make money building PCs", 

 

[RAS_3885]

26 minutes ago, Leon Ramesa said:

Smt4 or not, I'm good either way, I'm looking to build this in a couple of years so ddr5 is gonna be available. I'm looking to futurproof(I know there's no such thing) this machine for about 10 years and most importantly build something I'd be proud of, something that I can show off and something that I can use to draw customer later on as I am looking forward to making money from building PC's.

Planning a build for 2-3 years from today is pointless.  Tech moves so fast you'll be WAY behind the curve.  Additionally, no build will last 10 years without being horribly outdated.

 

You can build something a LOT more reasonable and still be proud of it.

[Zando_]

4 minutes ago, RAS_3885 said:

Planning a build for 2-3 years from today is pointless.  Tech moves so fast you'll be WAY behind the curve.  Additionally, no build will last 10 years without being horribly outdated.

^^^ Can attest to this. I have X58 hardware (2009, exactly 10 years ago) and sure it still works (I even ran a 1080 TI with my X5670 once, lmao), but a heavily OCed hexacore struggles to catch a stock R5 1600, and they're missing many instruction sets and also only run SATA 2 (the SATA 3 controllers on this gen were all shit) and USB 2.0 for the most part, unless you get PCIe add-in cards. Also on PCIe 2.0 vs the newer and much faster 3.0 (and now 4.0 and IIRC 5.0 with Intel's 2021 stuff?). You can make a rig last 10 years pretty easily if you go for HEDT stuff at first, but it'll be struggling to keep up with midrange systems near the end of that time. 

 

7 minutes ago, RAS_3885 said:

You can build something a LOT more reasonable and still be proud of it.

Yos! I'm pretty proud of my X99 based rig, and at this point (counting only what's in it, not other stuff I've accumulated over time and swapped in and out)... it's probably around $2K or so in the rig? And a good chunk of that would be due to running a custom loop, not purely hardware. Currently a j-bin 5960X (swapping it in tonight/tomorrow, rig has a 5820K right now), 32GB RAM, and an RVII. Pretty reasonable high end rig, and plenty beefy enough to be damn proud of. 

Heck, really you can be proud of anything. Back when I ran an i5 2400 and 1050 Ti I was pretty proud about that build, I just love hardware and muh eye candy so I've continued to upgrade since then, also as I've accumulated harder to run games. There's no need to waste masses of money making a completely impractical and difficult to use rig unless you only ever plan to bench. And in that case I'd say you should build your main rig first, then build a benching specific one as a secondary.