Steam distribution policy prohibits Epic Games / Tim Sweeney from exclusivizing any Steam-marketed games

[Crowbar]

11 hours ago, Jito463 said:

The key word there being "practically", as in almost but not quite.  While I might accept this statement as true, I don't agree with a blanket statement that Valve is a monopoly.

100%?  I don't think you understand what that means.  That means totally and completely.  Last I checked, there were many other outlets to buy digitally from, not the least of which is GoG.  Point 1 says control over price fixing, but I've seen no evidence of that.  In fact, there are a number of storefronts you can buy from which are far cheaper than direct on Steam.  Point 3 mentions exclusive control.  The only company seeking exclusive control is Epic.  Point 4 is about the object of that control, which doesn't apply to Valve.  Point 5 requires that you establish they actually have a "100% monopoly".  Point 6 is obviously off the table, as I've already proven there are many other sellers besides Valve, even if a game chooses to publish only on Steam.

I don't disagree that EGS has forced Valve to begin focusing on updates to the Steam client.  I'm not oblivious to the positives that have come of it, I just don't see it overall as a positive thing.  Exclusivity of any kind is bad for us.  The key difference with Valve versus Epic, is that Valve doesn't try to force any developer or publisher into exclusivity with them.  If it happens, that's by their choice, not because Valve pressured or bribed them into it.

Fanboys of any platform or product is a bad thing, but so, too, is ignoring positive aspects just so you can criticize the negatives.  Even I acknowledged that there were positives to the Epic Store fight with Valve, I just disagree that on the whole it's a positive for us as customers.

 

When Steam first rolled out, there were very few digital distribution options available.  Direct2Drive and one other (whose name I can't recall offhand) were pretty much the only competition, and D2D was horrible.  Steam became as massive as it did because it was the best choice available, not because of exclusivity crap like Epic is pulling.  I'm not pretending that Valve is perfect or hiding my head in the sand over their shortcomings, but I am saying that they're not as awful as you make them out to be.  Ignoring why they became so big is to ignore the reason behind a large part of your complaints about them.

I was correcting inaccuracies, not making excuses.  As for DRM, I suppose that depends on how you define it.  By your definition, you could say that GoG Galaxy is DRM.

I'm not interesting in nitpicking terms to death with you. If you think putting a focus on unimportant details until you are left with a scorched earth scenario furthers your point, then knock yourself out. As I've already stated, I'm not placing what epic does over valve. I'm stating that any form of DRM is anti-consumer and the steam client popularized it first. Outside of cherry picking the exclusivity nonsense that epic does the two platforms are of the same caliber of garbage.

 

You clearly don't understand how GOG works. The client they have available is completely optional and only made available for those that grew up during a time where digital distribution is all they know and they whine about subjectively useful gimmicks that come with it, You still have and always will, the option to download only the bare bones installer for every game that is for sale on GOG.

[mr moose]

6 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Again, they could have a deal-breaker fee of $50 and still make a fortune. The only real advertisements I've seen on Steam are big summer sales, or blockbusters which I assume the publisher pays for. At this point the argument is just going in circles without any new commentary.

The argument is going in circles because you are ignoring all the points raised.    You haven't addressed what has been said and relying on the same personal opinions as the guiding directive for your understanding.

13 minutes ago, Crowbar said:

I'm not interesting in nitpicking terms to death with you. If you think putting a focus on unimportant details until you are left with a scorched earth scenario furthers your point, then knock yourself out. As I've already stated, I'm not placing what epic does over valve. I'm stating that any form of DRM is anti-consumer and the steam client popularized it first. Outside of cherry picking the exclusivity nonsense that epic does the two platforms are of the same caliber of garbage.

 

You clearly don't understand how GOG works. The client they have available is completely optional and only made available for those that grew up during a time where digital distribution is all they know and they whine about subjectively useful gimmicks that come with it, You still have and always will, the option to download only the bare bones installer for every game that is for sale on GOG.

If you think steam popularized DRM then you have  very weak grasp of what it is.    If steam did anything for DRM they made it less necessary by turning the industry upside down and providing incentives for consumer to accept it rather than be subject to it (I.E easy cheap access to games in one library and one launcher, many people don't care about steam itself being a form of DRM because in many ways it is better than what they had before).

[Crowbar]

10 hours ago, mr moose said:

You're assuming the opposite.  DRM is DRM and nearly every online game store has it in their product somewhere along the line, trying use it as the single reason Steam are (insert pet peeve here) is disingenuous.

 

Steam have their issues sure, but to pretend they are worse than others simply because they want to protect their resources from being abused is absurd given it is: 1. in direct retaliation to EGS using their wealth to promote what is clearly and significantly a more anti consumer practice.  and 2. does not prevent release on other platforms.

 

It is a win win for everyone except EGS who might have a harder time poaching goodwill clients from valve.

The key word here is "nearly". There is an alternative and I'll stick to that. Until it changes neither will my opinion on the matter.

 

You have no evidence to suggest that epic exclusives are worse for the market then DRM as a whole. Making such a statement to indicate that I have a bias towards valve is a poorly constructed argument. I’ve already stated the opposite more then once, If you choose not to believe it then that’s your prerogative.

 

DRM has historically proven to be a waste of time outside a couple week initial launch window. There was also a study not that long ago that indicated that those that pirate wouldn't purchase the product to begin. At least in my case, I am giving the devs/publisher/platform every opportunity to earn my business. If they refuse, then so do I and the stalemate will continue.

 

 

 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Crowbar said:

Having to install a client to download games is still DRM. It's irrelevant if the game itself implements a seperate DRM form of it.

Then how does one acquire a game without encountering DRM? Travel to a local store and buy a physical copy? I'd take any of the digital distribution platforms over that, literally any of them. Hell even torrents are DRM if we want to start stretching things, you need a torrent client so.. 

[Thaldor]

2 minutes ago, Crowbar said:

I'm not interesting in nitpicking terms to death with you. If you think putting a focus on unimportant details until you are left with a scorched earth scenario furthers your point, then knock yourself out. As I've already stated, I'm not placing what epic does over valve. I'm stating that any form of DRM is anti-consumer and the steam client popularized it first. Outside of cherry picking the exclusivity nonsense that epic does the two platforms are of the same caliber of garbage.

 

You clearly don't understand how GOG works. The client they have available is completely optional and only made available for those that grew up during a time where digital distribution is all they know and they whine about subjectively useful gimmicks that come with it, You still have and always will, the option to download only the bare bones installer for every game that is for sale on GOG.

Whoa! So code wheels, fuzzy-bit, StarForce and so on weren't before Steam and not popular? Oh, you have so much to learn about DRM and half of it will make you blush and hope Steam was done at least decade earlier. Even EGS is a good choice when compared to many other DRM options out there, like really if someone wants StarForce back, go and shoot yourself before that cancer spreads.

[leadeater]

Just now, Thaldor said:

Whoa! So code wheels, fuzzy-bit, StarForce and so on weren't before Steam and not popular? Oh, you have so much to learn about DRM and half of it will make you blush and hope Steam was done at least decade earlier. Even EGS is a good choice when compared to many other DRM options out there, like really if someone wants StarForce back, go and shoot yourself before that cancer spreads.

StarForce is literal hell reincarnated in to digital form that pulls you in to it's pit of fire. I'd rather a kick in the balls for every 5 minutes of game play than have that installed on my computer again.

[Crowbar]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The argument is going in circles because you are ignoring all the points raised.    You haven't addressed what has been said and relying on the same personal opinions as the guiding directive for your understanding.

If you think steam popularized DRM then you have  very weak grasp of what it is.    If steam did anything for DRM they made it less necessary by turning the industry upside down and providing incentives for consumer to accept it rather than be subject to it (I.E easy cheap access to games in one library and one launcher, many people don't care about steam itself being a form of DRM because in many ways it is better than what they had before).

Steam did populariize the form of client based game DRM. There was no one else doing this before they did in the early 2000's. Aside from that, you're either employed by valves marketing team or completely brainwashed to believe this nonsense. There is absoutely no benefits that outweight the fact that you have to install DRM on your machine. There were no launchers at all before any of this. You simply clicked an EXE and started the game. You could install or download the content directly without giving up additional resources on your system. But I'm sure you also knew this, so it makes your post even more mind numbingly cringe worthy.

[Crowbar]

40 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

Hahahahahahaha. So if they don't put the entire game on Steams untracked and totally unprotected website for everyone to download it's "DRM". Okaaaaaaaay.

It is.

 

GOG does it just fine.

 

"okaaaaaaaaaaay"?

[Crowbar]

13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Then how does one acquire a game without encountering DRM? Travel to a local store and buy a physical copy? I'd take any of the digital distribution platform over that, literally any of them. Hell even torrents are DRM if we want to start stretching things, you need a torrent client so.. 

What's wrong with actually owning something in phsyical form? You're lazy, I get it. Not everyone is afaid to leave their house to go buy something.tangible.

 

Your assumption that you need a torrent to obtain pirated material just shows your lack of knowledge on the situation. Best stop commenting before you prove further ignorance on the subject.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Crowbar said:

You simply clicked an EXE and started the game

I'm sorry StarForce doesn't like you today, game will not play. Ok fine maybe a reboot will work? Nope. Uninstall and install again surely that will work? Nope. Hmm, oh it's because I installed another different game with a different DRM tool and they are conflicting with each other so now no games that use either of those DRM will work. Thank you this is sooo much better.

 

Steam actually ended that nightmare for a really long time, it's come back in recent times but hell Steam got a lot of favor really fast for good reason. The only people that didn't like it were game store owners.

 

6 minutes ago, Crowbar said:

You could install or download the content directly without giving up additional resources on your system

Download from where? I didn't have any games that were able to be downloaded and required to be purchased in physical form. Game updates you could download but not the base game. There were niche early platforms where you could purchase and download games but not really anything form major publishers who were all still in physical game sales mentality.

 

One thing that Steam did end for my was my local library actually had a very large collection of PC games you could hire for a week, for I think it was $3 or $5. Steam ended that instantly, I was the one that alerted them to the fact that the first person to hire the game owned it forever. I do miss that. They moved to doing console games instead.

[Crowbar]

17 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

Whoa! So code wheels, fuzzy-bit, StarForce and so on weren't before Steam and not popular? Oh, you have so much to learn about DRM and half of it will make you blush and hope Steam was done at least decade earlier. Even EGS is a good choice when compared to many other DRM options out there, like really if someone wants StarForce back, go and shoot yourself before that cancer spreads.

Learn to read.

 

None of these are client based.

 

DRM in general has been around in other forms for much longer obviously.

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, Crowbar said:

What's wrong with actually owning something in phsyical form? You're lazy, I get it. Not everyone is afaid to leave their house to go buy something.tangible.

 

Your assumption that you need a torrent to obtain pirated material just shows your lack of knowledge on the situation. Best stop commenting before you prove further ignorance on the subject.

I buy many things in physical form, games do not need to be one of them. There are games I intentionally buy in physical form, but since I have hundreds and hundreds of games in physical form from pre 2000 and post 2000 I don't have room to store them. Where do you propose I store an additional 500 I own on Steam? Not have a bed? Turn the living room in to storage?

[Crowbar]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I'm sorry StarForce doesn't like you today, game will not play. Ok fine maybe a reboot will work? Nope. Uninstall and install again surely that will work? Nope. Hmm, oh it's because I installed another different game with a different DRM tool and they are conflicting with each other so now no games that use either of those DRM will work. Thank you this is sooo much better.

 

Steam actually ended that nightmare for a really long time, it's come back in recent times but hell Steam got a lot of favor really fast for good reason. The only people that didn't like it were game store owners.

 

Download from where? I didn't have any games that were able to be downloaded and required to be purchased in physical form. Game updates you could download but not the base game. There were niche early platforms where you could purchase and download games but not really anything form major publishers who were all still in physical game sales mentality.

 

One thing that Steam did end for my was my local library actually had a very large collection of PC games you could hire for a week, for I think it was $3 or $5. Steam ended that instantly, I was the one that alerted them to the fact that the first person to hire the game owned it forever. I do miss that. They moved to doing console games instead.

What's your point exactly?

 

No DRM at all solves all of these issues.

 

I'm pretty sure if I told you where to obtain the material, the links would be reported and removed so I'll keep that information private.

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, Crowbar said:

Your assumption that you need a torrent to obtain pirated material just shows your lack of knowledge on the situation. Best stop commenting before you prove further ignorance on the subject.

Heh you're the one that assumed pirating, torrents != pirating. Ignorance is missing the point portrayed which was you promoting GOG while being oblivious to the fact that you need a GOG account to purchase games and download them from the website. This is also DRM, you might only need to do this once per purchase but a GOG account is required.

[Crowbar]

10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I buy many things in physical form, games do not need to be one of them. There are games I intentionally buy in physical form, but since I have hundreds and hundreds of games in physical form from pre 2000 and post 2000 I don't have room to store them. Where do you propose I store an additional 500 I own on Steam? Not have a bed? Turn the living room in to storage?

Sounds to me like a personal issue and an excuse for what steam does.

 

To date how many of those have you actually played through? Maybe get rid of the ones you don't need? You know your penis size isn't measured by 1's and 0's on a storage device, right?

[Crowbar]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Heh you're the one that assumed pirating, torrents != pirating. Ignorance is missing the point portrayed which was you promoting GOG while being oblivious to the fact that you need a GOG account to purchase games and download them from the website. This is also DRM, you might only need to do this once per purchase but a GOG account is required.

Now you're just splitting hairs for attention.

 

No point responding to this lunacy any further if you're going to jump down rabbit holes.

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, Crowbar said:

Sounds to me like a personal issue and an excuse for what steam does.

 

To date how many of those have you actually played though? Maybe get rid of the ones you don't need? You know your penis size isn't measured by 1's and 0's on a storage device, right?

So your solution is data destruction? Yea that's a real good idea for games you can no longer acquire. How about you lay out the issues with Steam better? I've lived though pre-steam, pre-internet gaming, all the way through to now and without question Steam was a great benefit when it came on to the scene. Even my GOG games and my other classic games installed from CD I import in to my Steam library for a central list and run capability.

 

I don't think it is for you to tell me to throw things out that I paid money for and wish to keep. Makes no difference if I play them or not. It's my collection of games not yours, if you want to manage what you own differently then that is your freedom you have.

[Crowbar]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

So your solution is data destruction? Yea that's a real good idea for games you can no longer acquire. How about you lay out the issues with Steam better? I've lived though pre-steam, pre-internet gaming, all the way through to now and without question Steam was a great benefit when it came on to the scene. Even my GOG games and my other classic games installed from CD I import in to my Steam library for a central list and run capability.

 

I don't think it is for you to tell me to throw things out that I paid money for and wish to keep. Makes no difference if I play them or not. It's my collection of games not yours, if you want to managed what you own differently then that is your freedom you have.

For someone that apparently seeks clarification, you sure do make a lot of assumptions. Getting rid of something doesn't mean throwing it away. If space is a factor for you like you claim and used as an excuse to justify what steam does, then find a solution.

 

Either way, unless you are unemployed there's no way you'll ever finish 700+ games in a life time without extreme neglect to other impportant aspects of life regardless the format. I'd suggest taking a look at your personal situation before attempting to use it as validation for poor decision making.

[leadeater]

Just now, Crowbar said:

justify what steam does

And what does Steam do?

[Crowbar]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

And what does Steam do?

I've already stated my primary gripe with valve many times here. Re-read the thread because I'm not going to create a bullet point list of all the issues espeically when they aren't relevant to the initial discussion.

[Mihle]

40 minutes ago, Crowbar said:

It is.

 

GOG does it just fine.

 

"okaaaaaaaaaaay"?

On got you still need to use the website and log in to your user account. By your definition, that would also be DRM. It's not that much difference from that to download a launcher.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, Crowbar said:

I've already stated my primary gripe with valve many times here. Re-read the thread because I'm not going to create a bullet point list of all the issues espeically when they aren't relevant to the initial discussion.

So basically your opinion on the down sides to Steam for me does not outweigh the positives from my viewpoint. GOG and similar just aren't as good service offerings compared to Steam so even though there are alternatives they aren't inherently better, because having to have the game hook in to Steam (which is optional) to run is not actually that bad. There has been much greater inconveniences in the past and Steam was the primary reason those ended, for a good length of time.

 

Steam has a large legacy so even if a better overall platform evolved many gamers will have significant ties to Steam, this actually is a negative thing that we are all capable of seeing. A unified purchasing systems is highly unlikely to ever happen so the more platforms that exist the more fragmentation there will be, even if a cross selection exist on multiple of them. Pick your poison, there is no perfect solution to be had, and my Steam poison happens to taste rather nice still.

[The King of the Undead]

Steam has problems EG has more. Steam has DRM I don't know if EGS does. at this point I preffer steam because of linux support and not buying exclusives. GOG doesn't have a lot of games.

[TechyBen]

3 hours ago, Crowbar said:

It is.

 

GOG does it just fine.

 

"okaaaaaaaaaaay"?

Wow. You don't need a login for GOGs website? I can download their entire catalog right now if I go to gog.com?

 

Yes, "okaaaaaaaaaaay"?!

[TechyBen]

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

StarForce is literal hell reincarnated in to digital form that pulls you in to it's pit of fire. I'd rather a kick in the balls for every 5 minutes of game play than have that installed on my computer again.

I have a list of memeable gamedev ideas... I'm using that one (I'm not sure about giving you royalties though, but you can share in the legal cases when we get into trouble for it!  ).