GTA V: Real money for fake gambling

[Spotty]

8 minutes ago, ramm said:

Isn't GTA 18+ anyway?

Depends on the region and what it is rated. In USA I believe it's rated "Mature" (17+)

 

Spoiler

 

[Lathlaer]

13 minutes ago, ramm said:

Isn't GTA 18+ anyway?

Doesn't matter if it's not enforcable.

 

15 minutes ago, ramm said:

So shooting people is fine, picking up hookers, using them and murdering to get your money back is fine, but as soon as gambling or a hot coffee mod comes everyone loses their shit?

Everyone loses their shit because it has a direct, extremely forward path to real world consequences (real money lost on gambling). 

 

If the ingame gambling was done with ingame currency without the possibilty to buy that currency for real money, no one would say anything. 

 

In Mass Effect series you can gamble your ingame currency away at a casino but since you can't buy space credits for money, no one gives a shit.

[Fasauceome]

41 minutes ago, ramm said:

So shooting people is fine, picking up hookers, using them and murdering to get your money back is fine

If it was an avenue for killing real hookers, there's a real problem. The problem now is that it's an avenue for spending real money, it's a massive distinction. 

[IWannaBeUniqueMom]

On 7/25/2019 at 7:11 PM, peger said:

Nobody is forcing you to go with a pedophile who gives you candy.

Nobody is forcing you to buy drugs from the dealer.

Nobody is forcing you...

 

These things are not directed to you or other "John" or "Frank".  People who don't spend any money or buy "one loot box for a month".  The main target are whales with various problems like addictive personality  who will spend thousands of dollars to taste this sweet dopamine shot.

 

At least in the casino you can win real $$$.

 

Makes sense

[StoneyMahoney]

11 hours ago, lewdicrous said:

How much is r* paying for this defense?

Not a penny. I used to work in the gambling industry, it's a portion of my life I'd be ashamed of if it wasn't my first job out of university. Rockstar has *nothing* on those scumbags, the real gambling industry needs to die screaming, they wouldn't let anyone impose limits on them under any circumstances, they would certainly never self-impose those limits from day 1. It's not a perfect situation, but it's sooooooo much better than anyone else is doing.

[Hawick]

I quit playing GTA after those punk-ass flying bikes update. I mean before that, I quit after the offices update. I ain't running errands across the entire map and get killed by yelling 12-year-old russians , no no, not today.

Rockstar basically gave the finger to their die-hard fans by adding these lame updates and not releasing any singleplayer DLC. GTA:Online is nothing but a grindfest as some of y'all here mentioned correctly. They've always been greedy as hell but with this new online gambling bullsh*t they've taken it to the next level. Yeah, this is some next level bullcr*p right here ladies and gentlemen. ... I mean, come on, I know the game's mainly about theft, murder, drugs - but online gambling is a little bit different. Rockstar uses people's stupidity to their advantage. Children and morons are really easy to trick. In my not so humble opinion GTA:Online should go. It's time to stop.

 

[Hawick]

2 hours ago, ramm said:

Isn't GTA 18+ anyway?

 

So shooting people is fine, picking up hookers, using them and murdering to get your money back is fine, but as soon as gambling or a hot coffee mod comes everyone loses their shit?

Nice, all these things you mentioned are different. Killing people in a virtual reality is okay. It only makes mentally ill people go and shoot up schools. Hot coffee is okay as it's 18+. Only SJW's cry about it - they don't matter.

 

 Online gambling on the other hand can ruin people's well-being at a much faster rate than just excessive playing (I said this because you'd probably come up with the argument that "oh playing video games all day can ruin people's lives too"). A mentally healthy person won't go out and shoot people in real life just because he/she does that in GTA. However, even mentally healthy adults/kids are susceptible to getting caught up in online gambling. That is the main difference here.

 

Involvement in online gambling, with real money, is complete utter bullsh*t and you know it. 

 

[imreloadin]

People still play GTA V?

[Princess Luna]

4 minutes ago, imreloadin said:

People still play GTA V?

Yes very much so, rockstar made it a service after all... At this point I'm surprise the game hasn't gone free yet and they profit just from microtransactions since whoever was just interested in single player probably pirated and got done with it years ago.

[TechyBen]

Sudo/redditbot Remind me when I become a game developer: Add "loot box/microtransaction" purchases... then add casino to make them disappear so you need to purchase again... "win big prizes [honest!!!!]!!!"

 

18 minutes ago, Princess Luna said:

Yes very much so, rockstar made it a service after all... At this point I'm surprise the game hasn't gone free yet and they profit just from microtransactions since whoever was just interested in single player probably pirated and got done with it years ago.

The investment sink. On a F2P game, if you don't like it, you uninstall. Charge £50 for the game, and you garuntee every hit is a "whale" and a "mark"!

[ravenshrike]

1 hour ago, Hawick said:

Killing people in a virtual reality is okay. It only makes mentally ill people go and shoot up schools.

No correlation, let alone causation. In reality the causes of that increase are probably social media and the inherent disassociation of relationships on it, increased use of psychotropic drugs in children, and in the case of Parkland, a complete and utter lack of significant consequence to any of his actions leading up to that day.

 

[Hawick]

2 hours ago, ravenshrike said:

No correlation, let alone causation. In reality the causes of that increase are probably social media and the inherent disassociation of relationships on it, increased use of psychotropic drugs in children, and in the case of Parkland, a complete and utter lack of significant consequence to any of his actions leading up to that day.

 

Okay, professor.

[mr moose]

6 hours ago, ramm said:

Isn't GTA 18+ anyway?

 

So shooting people is fine, picking up hookers, using them and murdering to get your money back is fine, but as soon as gambling or a hot coffee mod comes everyone loses their shit?

 

People have been complaining about those things in games forever.   It's just the gambling bit seems to affect more people so more people are concerned about controlling it.

[Eaglerino]

I don't see why the government should be adding even more regulations. The parents are responsible here. The rating is 18+ or what 17+ in US, it's not Rockstar's problem if the parents aren't paying attention, and it shouldn't be some regulatory boards or congressional problem either

[StoneyMahoney]

11 hours ago, Spotty said:

What happens if Rockstar changes this in an update in a few weeks time? Nothing stopping Rockstar from changing the limit from 20,000 to 200,000. Or removing the limit completely,

I think judging Rockstar on something they could hypothetically do in the future is unfair in the extreme. The simple fact they self-imposed any kind of limit at all from day 1 says far more about their intentions. I can't think of a single company in the gambling space that wouldn't do exactly the opposite - they would never dream of limiting the amount of profit they can make per customer per hour and would actively resist any efforts from any quarter (including lobbying against government regulation) that would make them implement them.

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by StoneyMahoney
Typo

[Spotty]

1 minute ago, StoneyMahoney said:

I think judging Rockstar on something they could hypothetically do in the future is unfair in the extreme.

That's true, and I agree with you. However it is something to keep in mind with how easily a chance such as that could be made in a video game, especially one that is continuing to receive regular updates such as GTA V.

 

2 minutes ago, StoneyMahoney said:

The simple fact they self-imposed any kind of limit at all from day 1 says far more about their intentions. I can't think of a single company in the gambling space that wouldn't do exactly the opposite - they would never dream of limiting the amount of profit they can make per customer per hour and would actively resist any efforts from any quarter (including lobbying against government regulation) that would make them implement them.

Also true - Casinos and other gambling establishments have very unethical practices... However it's only a valid point if you're considering Rockstar as a gambling company and not as a video game company. 

If you plot Rockstar/GTA V on a scale comparing it against Casinos, slot machines, betting agencies, sports betting, etc then yes, GTA V will be on the mild end of the scale.

If you plot Rockstar/GTA V on a scale comparing it against other video games, they're right up there at the high end of the scale alongside EA's "surprise mechanics".

Even if there are limits they've self imposed (and yes, maybe give them a little credit for imposing those limits because yes, the damage done would likely be greater without those limits), at the end of the day it's still gambling [potentially real world cash] in video games. When you take a video game and start comparing it to how predatory Casinos are, even if you're saying it's not as bad, then you know something is wrong with the video game.

[StoneyMahoney]

21 minutes ago, Spotty said:

If you plot Rockstar/GTA V on a scale comparing it against other video games, they're right up there at the high end of the scale alongside EA's "surprise mechanics".

Even if there are limits they've self imposed (and yes, maybe give them a little credit for imposing those limits because yes, the damage done would likely be greater without those limits), at the end of the day it's still gambling [potentially real world cash] in video games. When you take a video game and start comparing it to how predatory Casinos are, even if you're saying it's not as bad, then you know something is wrong with the video game.

I completely disagree with the comparison between Rockstar's casino and "surprise mechanics" - there is no surprise what-so-ever here at all, there are no "chance of getting X = less that 1%" misrepresentation, and when you walk into that casino and order some chips you know EXACTLY what you're getting into. If they only sold their cars in loot boxes and said you have a "less than 1% chance" of geting... I don't know, what's the current most badass car in the game? Sure, then you'd have a point. But they don't do that. You always know exactly what you're buying from them and can ALWAYS use currency earned by playing the game instead. I just searched YouTube for "Fifa ultimate team pack opening" and the fourth video down shows a guy blowing 13,000 GBP in 22 minutes. Blowing through the same amount of money in GTAs casino would take AT LEAST 10,452 hours (1.193 years of constant gambling), based on worst-case Shark Card transaction rates, owning a penthouse at the casino (which costs a few million on it's own) and losing every chip you have before the 48 minute cooldown period expires every single time. Also, f*ck EA.

 

Limits on losses (or at least the rate of loss) have an enormous impact on gambling addiction. I have seen it develop first hand myself in real-life casinos (I used to work at one, to my shame) that people get stuck in a cycle of losing all the money they've converted to chips/tokens/coins/whatever and immediately go and get more to chase their losses. Simply being told "no, you're blowing through too much, you have to wait X amount of time" has been scientifically proven to have an enormous impact on reducing future participation in gambling. The gambling industry's line on this has always been "we can't practically impose limits on people, they'd just go to our competitors instead as soon as the limits kick in" so Rockstar implementing these limits in their own little economy shows they really REALLY don't want people getting addicted to gambling on their turf.

 

And let's be honest, no-one would start playing GTA V just to gamble when they can use real actual casinos online from wherever they happen to be on their phone. Rockstar are a video game company, they've had casino features in their games for more than a decade now, I would strongly suspect it's taken them this long to enable the casino that's been on the map and "coming soon" since the original launch of the game because they've been working through the international legal aspects to ensure they comply with all local laws. Yes, I agree, they should have made Shark Card money ineligible for using in the casino, I'm certainly not saying their angels in any way shape or form, but I am arguing that the level of hysteria and negativity in the press, media and user community that's surrounded the launch of the casino is completely unjustified and is down to bad reporting skipping over the most important feature of whole experience.

Edited July 29, 2019 by StoneyMahoney
Typo, added the 1.193 years thing

[Spotty]

9 minutes ago, StoneyMahoney said:

Limits on losses (or at least the rate of loss) have an enormous impact on gambling addiction. I have seen it develop first hand myself in real-life casinos (I used to work at one, to my shame) that people get stuck in a cycle of losing all the money they've converted to chips/tokens/coins/whatever and immediately go and get more to chase their losses. Simply being told "no, you're blowing through too much, you have to wait X amount of time" has been scientifically proven to have an enormous impact on reducing future participation in gambling. The gambling industry's line on this has always been "we can't practically impose limits on people, they'd just go to our competitors instead as soon as the limits kick in" so Rockstar implementing these limits in their own little economy shows they really REALLY don't want people getting addicted to gambling on their turf.

That would be fantastic. If Rockstar was a gambling company. They're not a gambling company and they're not in the gambling industry - They're a video game company! A little bit of gambling in video games is too much gambling in video games. (I'm not talking about gambling online poker games and whatnot. Those are straightfoward as to what they are and are clearly gambling and make no apologies for it, as well as complying with relevant gambling laws such as age verification)

 

It is good that there are limits on what you can spend on gambling in the game. I wasn't aware of this until you stated it, I'm not sure if others were aware of it either (it's not something I saw in a lot of articles I saw about the topic, though I didn't really spend much time looking at it). It's good that they're minimising the harm caused by gambling in their video games... However, that does not excuse putting gambling in the game in the first place. It's a solution to a problem they caused.

Instead of limiting how much money can be spent on chips to be gambled within the game, as mentioned earlier I would much rather see it so that chips cannot be purchased with cash [via in-game currency]. Make it so the chips have to be earned through gameplay instead. The direct path from real world cash to gambling chips is an issue, even if there are limitations on how much money you can convert.

 

EA's bad. Rockstars bad. They're all bad. I don't want to accept any form of gambling or "surprise mechanics" in video games. People should be outraged whenever a game developer introduces gambling or other such unethical mechanics in to their games. The only way things will change is if people get mad, voice their concerns, and stop buying the games. Unfortunately people keep buying the games despite this, so the game developers keep doing it and pushing it further and further...

Quote

Listed in Guinness World Records as the best-selling sports video game franchise in the world, by 2018, the FIFA series had sold over 260 million copies.^[3][4][5] It is also one of the best-selling video game franchises.^[6]

Seriously, what the fuck guys? So many people complain about EA and FIFA loot boxes, yet it's still one of the most popular game franchises? Fuck anyone who buys FIFA games. You're the reason EA keeps doing it.

 

10 minutes ago, StoneyMahoney said:

Also, f*ck EA.

Agreed

 

11 minutes ago, StoneyMahoney said:

I'm certainly not saying their angels in any way shape or form, but I am arguing that the level of hysteria and negativity in the press, media and user community that's surrounded the launch of the casino is completely unjustified and is down to bad reporting skipping over the most important feature of whole experience.

Oh, yeah. I'm definitely with you here.

I got served up a news article on my phone this morning saying something along the lines of "Rockstar the developer of Grand Theft Auto - A game that has been heavily criticised for encouraging violence against women, sexual crimes, and depicting graphic torture - is not paying any tax in the UK". I couldn't read the rest of the article because it was behind a pay wall. I think it was from the mirror or something but I can't find the article again.

A few years ago in Australia a petition started by a group of prostitutes/sex workers complained that the game incited sexual violence towards women and would teach children to be violent towards sex workers. In response to the petition [and subsequent media attention], Target Australia pulled the game off the shelf and stated that the game was "not in line with Target's family values".

 

Media tends to overreact, especially mainstream media when it comes to video games. It's a mixture of lack of knowledge of the topic and the simple fact that controversy sells.

[TechyBen]

On 7/28/2019 at 7:43 AM, mr moose said:

If there is any way to convert your winings back into real dollars then they will require a license to operate in Australia.  Such a license means they have to ensure all players are over 18 or they face huge fines.  And yes, the law holds the establishment responsible for that. 

 

 

Is this not how the Japanese gambling get around laws with Pachinko machines? Only pay out in "tokens" that are worthless... turns out other "people" trade the tokens for cash value times.

 

PS, seems I've jumped back in the wrong page of the thread. Whoops. But it is a valid point. These companies are not "keeping in the law", they are checking "how can I walk out this bank/house/shop with everything in my pocket, but technically not stealing".

 

[mr moose]

Just now, TechyBen said:

Is this not how the Japanese gambling get around laws with Pachinko machines? Only pay out in "tokens" that are worthless... turns out other "people" trade the tokens for cash value times.

 

Those machines in Australia are considered games of skill (like shooting ducks at the show),  Chance is not supposed to be a factor, either you have the skill or you don't.  I am mot convinced they are legit, but that's how it works.

[TechyBen]

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

Those machines in Australia are considered games of skill (like shooting ducks at the show),  Chance is not supposed to be a factor, either you have the skill or you don't.  I am mot convinced they are legit, but that's how it works.

Yeah. Here in the uk the "skill" games have a button for odds*... I mean skill level on payout.

 

These are mainly holdovers. Actual "gambling" machines are now posted odds, low bid (£1 or 50p max IIRC) or have been converted to actual skill/question games instead.

 

 

*the "games" literally deactivate switches/levers that allow a win, 1 in every 50 or so depending on how stingy the house/shop is.

[StoneyMahoney]

14 hours ago, Spotty said:

That would be fantastic. If Rockstar was a gambling company. They're not a gambling company and they're not in the gambling industry - They're a video game company! A little bit of gambling in video games is too much gambling in video games.

Trying to classify companies like that and expecting them to act exactly like the categories they're placed in isn't even a vaguely realistic expectation. And zero tolerance for gambling in video games? That's a personal opinion, and you're totally entitled to it, but there absolutely are gambling mechanics in video games that are totally healthy and not even vaguely worthy of the slightest comment about how ethical they are.

14 hours ago, Spotty said:

It is good that there are limits on what you can spend on gambling in the game. I wasn't aware of this until you stated it

I looked at like 30-40 articles posted in the mainstream media about the GTA V casino, only one even mentioned there were limits at all and didn't go into any detail about it.

 

14 hours ago, Spotty said:

The direct path from real world cash to gambling chips is an issue, even if there are limitations on how much money you can convert.

Here's thing about that, because Rockstar can say there's no official way of redeeming the chips back to real money, is there any difference between using real money to buy a virtual helicopter and using real money to buy virtual casino chips? It's all imaginary property with no tangibility outside the virtual world of San Andreas. That didn't stop RS from limiting the purchase of chips in ways they've never even thought about with the rest of the contents of the various vehicle dealerships / gun emporiums / strip clubs / whatever in the game, they knew this would be controversial and did something about it. Not that anyone cares.

14 hours ago, Spotty said:

Fuck anyone who buys FIFA games. You're the reason EA keeps doing it.

Preach it, brother/sister!

14 hours ago, Spotty said:

"Rockstar the developer of Grand Theft Auto [...] is not paying any tax in the UK"

I saw that and was like *facepalm*. Then again, as an IT contractor in central London, I've used what are called "umbrella companies" - you effectively work for them rather than yourself when you do contract work for other companies, they file your taxes as though you were an employee so you don't have to hire an accountant, and it's totally legal for you to claim back against tax any expenses for travel, meals and hardware purchases that are even vaguely work related - the end result is that I was paying almost no tax at all and the umbrella company took a small fee for their services so that everyone in the arrangement was better off. Except the tax man. Tax evasion isn't a thing just for big companies and rich people, I totally can't judge Rockstar for doing something I have done myself.

[TechyBen]

1 hour ago, StoneyMahoney said:

Spoiler

 

Trying to classify companies like that and expecting them to act exactly like the categories they're placed in isn't even a vaguely realistic expectation. And zero tolerance for gambling in video games? That's a personal opinion, and you're totally entitled to it, but there absolutely are gambling mechanics in video games that are totally healthy and not even vaguely worthy of the slightest comment about how ethical they are.

I looked at like 30-40 articles posted in the mainstream media about the GTA V casino, only one even mentioned there were limits at all and didn't go into any detail about it.

 

Here's thing about that, because Rockstar can say there's no official way of redeeming the chips back to real money, is there any difference between using real money to buy a virtual helicopter and using real money to buy virtual casino chips? It's all imaginary property with no tangibility outside the virtual world of San Andreas. That didn't stop RS from limiting the purchase of chips in ways they've never even thought about with the rest of the contents of the various vehicle dealerships / gun emporiums / strip clubs / whatever in the game, they knew this would be controversial and did something about it. Not that anyone cares.

Preach it, brother/sister!

 

I saw that and was like *facepalm*. Then again, as an IT contractor in central London, I've used what are called "umbrella companies" - you effectively work for them rather than yourself when you do contract work for other companies, they file your taxes as though you were an employee so you don't have to hire an accountant, and it's totally legal for you to claim back against tax any expenses for travel, meals and hardware purchases that are even vaguely work related - the end result is that I was paying almost no tax at all and the umbrella company took a small fee for their services so that everyone in the arrangement was better off. Except the tax man. Tax evasion isn't a thing just for big companies and rich people, I totally can't judge Rockstar for doing something I have done myself.

Wait... so it's your fault we got strange tax reforms?! XD

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, TechyBen said:

 

*the "games" literally deactivate switches/levers that allow a win, 1 in every 50 or so depending on how stingy the house/shop is.

I am skeptical about machines in Australia doing this (meaning I think they do), even though that is highly illegal because it becomes a game of chance and not skill and thus must come under the same regulation as poker machines and casino's.

 

 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, StoneyMahoney said:

Tax evasion isn't a thing just for big companies and rich people, I totally can't judge Rockstar for doing something I have done myself.

 

I don't even like the term tax evasion, it makes it sound like the person is doing something illegal or immoral.   The government write the tax rules, we all just follow them.  Of course we are going to use them as best we can to our advantage.    I worked half of my professional life self employed,  I didn't pay a cent of business tax the whole time, the reason the government doesn't care is because I still generated a few million in economic spending and the government earnt GST from my services.