Linux Gaming FINALLY Doesn't SUCK!

[Enderman]

1 minute ago, ryao said:

More like 20%. There are ~15000 games and steam and ~3000 of them support Linux.

There are many games that are not on steam.

Tens of thousands.

Maybe you don't remember all of those older games.

[Varusal]

10 minutes ago, Enderman said:

There are many games that are not on steam.

Tens of thousands.

Maybe you don't remember all of those older games.

LUL older games don't even run (perfectly fine) on windows anymore.

[Enderman]

2 minutes ago, SirMorokei said:

LUL older games don't even run (perfectly fine) on windows anymore.

I've had luck with windows 10, and sometimes using compatibility mode.

Point is that they actually run, unlike on linux.

Also, there are many other game launchers that are not steam that have recent games, not sure what your point is.

[Stefan Payne]

18 hours ago, SirMorokei said:

Linux as a general consumer / client side OS is actually way better than windows.

It is not, as there is no universal, defined installation method that works on all distributions. Just try installing AMDGPU-PRO and you see what I mean...

 

In many Distributions, you can't manually add SAMBA Shares, because the OS doesn't see them for whatever reason (OSX does by the way).

 

And some other inconveniences. But the main problem with Linux is that there are no defined executables like it is on Windows (OS/2, OSX and so on)...

 

You have a centralized store where you can find all kinds of software

You also have that in Windows since 8.

Its called Windows store.

And its not really an advantage.

 

The advantage of Windows is that you can start a program from the Internet, you don't even need to install it (ie HWMonitor, GPU-Z). And that you have a Stadndardized OS. Not the fragmented stuff like it is the case in the Linux world.

 

BTW: The ammount of native games is dramatically higher for me under OSX than Linux. ~100 vs. ~80...

[Varusal]

1 minute ago, Enderman said:

I've had luck with windows 10, and sometimes using compatibility mode.

Point is that they actually run, unlike on linux.

Also, there are many other game launchers that are not steam that have recent games, not sure what your point is.

Did you know that xbox one games don't run on a ps4?

Same thing but at least you can make it run on linux

[ryao]

2 minutes ago, Enderman said:

I've had luck with windows 10, and sometimes using compatibility mode.

Point is that they actually run, unlike on linux.

Also, there are many other game launchers that are not steam that have recent games, not sure what your point is.

You can run just about any old Linux software on Linux if you have a copy of the userland it expects.

[Varusal]

Just now, Stefan Payne said:

It is not, as there is no universal, defined installation method that works on all distributions. Just try installing AMDGPU-PRO and you see what I mean...

 

In many Distributions, you can't manually add SAMBA Shares, because the OS doesn't see them for whatever reason (OSX does by the way).

 

And some other inconveniences. But the main problem with Linux is that there are no defined executables like it is on Windows (OS/2, OSX and so on)...

One of my clients companies use this on thin clients and guess what they are using it since 2014.
https://www.igel.com/igel-os-universal-desktop-operating-system/

Something Mr. Todd said: "It just works"

[ryao]

8 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

It is not, as there is no universal, defined installation method that works on all distributions. Just try installing AMDGPU-PRO and you see what I mean...

I am not going to write a script to invalidate that because I do not like AMDGPU-PRO.

Quote

 

In many Distributions, you can't manually add SAMBA Shares, because the OS doesn't see them for whatever reason (OSX does by the way).

You cannot add NFS shares to Windows by default, because Windows does not preinstall a client.

Quote

And some other inconveniences. But the main problem with Linux is that there are no defined executables like it is on Windows (OS/2, OSX and so on)...

What do you call ELF?

 

http://refspecs.linuxbase.org/elf/elf.pdf

[TechyBen]

25 minutes ago, Enderman said:

There are many games that are not on steam.

Tens of thousands.

Maybe you don't remember all of those older games.

Hahahahaha. Yes... the older games not made for linux don't work on linux.

 

You know what other old games don't work on Linux. N64 games... Yeah (They do in emulators, but that's not this discussion).

 

So going forwards, a lot more is coming out platform independent.

[Stefan Payne]

11 hours ago, SirMorokei said:

Than you have clearly no Idea.

No, just a different oppionion than you. 

And what he said is pretty valid as Linux has problems as a consumer operating system. It does break, when you fiddle around with Graphics drivers and Kernels. And installing drivers isn't something that seems to be designed into it.

 

While it is fine as a Server/Workstation OS where a Pro sets it up, as a Consumer OS with the consumer fiddling around with it, it is not a good one because of all the quirks.

 

One of my clients companies use this on thin clients and guess what they are using it since 2014.
https://www.igel.com/igel-os-universal-desktop-operating-system/

Something Mr. Todd said: "It just works"

And what does that have to do with anything I just said?! 
You are not proving anything, And insulting people doesn't help prove your point.

 

As you know, I used Linux a couple of days/weeks ago and every time I try I go back to Windows because it either breaks or is annoying because it doesn't do somethings it should.

 

Oh yeah yah, Linux isn't Windows, I know and I can't hear that bullshit because the Windows Guys are the ones who want to switch and go over to Linux. Alienating them is not a good idea...

[ryao]

3 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

No, just a different oppionion than you. 

And what he said is pretty valid as Linux has problems as a consumer operating system. It does break, when you fiddle around with Graphics drivers and Kernels. And installing drivers isn't something that seems to be designed into it.

Attempt the same fiddling on Windows and you will likely run into breakage there too. Windows hides that from you so that you do not try touching it. I imagine that most people could not identify the NT kernel on a NT system.

[Stefan Payne]

11 hours ago, Drak3 said:

I've been trying to use Linux for the past six years, it's nothing but headache trying to keep things working software side. Now, Linux is only useful to me in a VM. I'm the last of one out of my group of friends to try to use Linux. Everyone I know that tried to use Linux went back to Windows after a year or two. None of them care about PC gaming, as they have consoles. They got sick of the constant maintenance Linux demands as well.

I agree with that.

Its the same for me, everytime I try to use Linux, I find some bullshit, that really drives me mad.

 

For exmaple KDE not beeing able to stream...

11 hours ago, SirMorokei said:

Than your friends use a very complicated Linux distribution. And even with that your friends stick with Linux for 1-2 years so, i can't be that bad if you consider that they worked with linux for over 1 year

You are the usual condecending Linux person it seems, that doesn't want to understand the other side or help him move over. 

 

Do you think that that will bring him over to your side?! No, it will make him not wanting to try and stay with Windows. As do I. 

I only do Linux for fun, not because I really want to use it. 

And people like you, who rather insult "the Windows Guys" than to help them are one of the reasons why.

 

11 hours ago, SirMorokei said:

Than you can't use any OS. Windows is more broken than any other OS. My guess is that you just can't handle linux.

the usual claims that can not be proven from the Linux side.

God, I hate that behaviour.

 

If he doesn't like it because it breaks, then you should try to help him solve the Problems he might or might not hae and not claim that Windows is worse...

That is really not helpful and only increases the aversion one has towards Linux...

 

8 hours ago, alextulu said:

In the video Ubuntu froze and Linus had to use the reset button. So much for Linux stability.

Exactly!
And that is why it isn't that great for Endusers...

If a programm freezes, you can usually save the Windows session, under Linux its not that easy because there is no task manager or a hotkey to open the taskmanager or the "panic options" like there is on Windows...

 

8 hours ago, alextulu said:

Also, from personal experience, last time I tried Ubuntu and Mint on my laptop, there was a very strange issue.

I have strange Issues like randomly switching off with some distributions (like Zorin OS) on my Intel Laptops.

One is a Dell Vostro 1500, another is an Acer 3690 (with 32bit CPU) and another one is some old Medion thingy with a Pentium M...

 

 

8 minutes ago, ryao said:

You cannot add NFS shares to Windows by default, because Windows does not preinstall a client.

I thought you were a reasonable guy, seems like I was wrong...

Because now you come with some nonsense that no consumer really cares about. That's Server Stuff and on Server it doesn't seem too complicated:

https://www.rootusers.com/how-to-mount-an-nfs-share-in-windows-server-2016/

 

But I can also mention that many Linux Distributions don't come with exFAT support preinstalled, you have to install that manually.

The same goes for XFS filesystems. Also one of the features you have to install manually, for example on Ubuntu.

 

And if there is a Filesystem Corruption? Just boot Windows.

Yeah, great, super... 

Great Idea!

 

As for the Question why exFAT for an external Drive:
Because you can use the drive with Windows, as a Backup for your Playstation 4 and other stuff.

 

8 minutes ago, ryao said:

What do you call ELF?

Yeah, there are soo many things using that, you know??

 

For example Steam - oh wait, that comes with the .deb container. Or other stuff that also comes in .deb and sometimes .rpm.

Yeah, that's great... 

2 minutes ago, ryao said:

Attempt the same fiddling on Windows and you will likely run into breakage there too. Windows hides that from you so that you do not try touching it. I imagine that most people could not identify the NT kernel on a NT system.

...and here we go again...

 

Instead of constructive discussions, we are doing whataboutism and poiting fingers instead of trying to solve the Problems or admit the problems that Linux has.

 

 

God I hate that.

Why do you guys always have to do that and can't accept what other people have to say about Linux and always try to flame them?!

 

That solves nothing, the Windows users will stay with Windows, people reading this will certainly not want to switch to Linux, when they see that they won't be helped when something breaks...

 

[Varusal]

2 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

You are the usual condecending Linux person it seems

Nope I use Windows 10 as my main OS. Windows Server for my AD infrastructure.

I was 4 years long a Microsoft product teacher for companies. I use Linux in my free time and it isn't that bad. You describe it like it is the worst OS on the planet.

Windows is an unfinished OS!

I guess the best example for that is the Settings app > But the control panel is still there (win + r > control)

 

Even last week I reinstalled Windows and got an bug during the OOBE process of the installation. Nothing was shown in the Service task.

It should look like this:

 

But instead it looked like this:

 

And if Linux is so bad why did Microsoft implement the linux sub-system into windows?

And why does Microsoft extend the .NET-Core Feature for Linux?

And why is Linux a fundamental part of the Microsoft Azure Cloud (Linux OS called Azure Sphere)?

[pipnina]

10 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Exactly!

And that is why it isn't that great for Endusers...

If a programm freezes, you can usually save the Windows session, under Linux its not that easy because there is no task manager or a hotkey to open the taskmanager or the "panic options" like there is on Windows...

It should be noted that WINE (and thus proton) can cause havoc under bad circumstances with the display server. Linus was trying to run an unsupported program at the time as well.

 

It should also be noted that there is a task manager style program on just about every distro/de. Here's mine:

I can right click any process to terminate it, just like on windows.

But ok, sometimes you are beyond even this...

In these situations, you can press

ctrl+alt+F<1/2/3/4/5/6>

Which sends you into a "TTY" window, which is independent of Xorg display server. From here you can run

ps aux | grep <name of program you wish to kill>

Which tells you a list of programs by name, path of execution, and process ID (PID).

 

Then, you can finally type:

kill -9 <offending_process_PID>

Which forcibly kills the process. You then type ctrl+alt+F# (different distros have the gui on different numbers) to return to the GUI, which should be unfrozen.

 

Thankfuly, this level of annoyance is rare, normally only caused by WINE games behaving particularly bad.

 

If things go so bad this cannot fix it... There is also the "magic sysrq key", though this can be almost as nuclear as a full reboot it is very good if you have run out of memory and swap is crapping your system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key

 

 

-----

 

With regards to your complaint about non-standard executable formats, I shall attempt to clear the air:

ELF is the exe equivalent of Linux, it is the binary format which all Linux programs use (besides cases where C#, Java and other JIT languages are involved, but that's the same everywhere). The .deb and .rpm (and others!) are not executables but a bit like zip folders or those MSI installers for windows programs. The program (i.e. steam's ELF file and supporting files such as images) is entirely contained within the .deb or .rpm, until a package manager like apt or yum reads it and extracts the contents based on the format's instructions.

 

So you see, .deb and .rpm are not really a big issue, they just cater to different package managers and will contain the same program.

Cross-distribution alternatives have cropped up in recent years, such as the appimage and flatpak. These are similar to the MacOS .app formats as they contain the whole application in a runnable state, and you can execute the program by clicking on appimages directly. This invokes a program which decompresses the appimage and runs the ELF contained within it.

 

I hope that clears things, and I have not mis-interpreted your grievance.

[Drak3]

30 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Instead of constructive discussions, we are doing whataboutism and poiting fingers instead of trying to solve the Problems or admit the problems that Linux has.

He also assumes that Linux is breaking for me because I'm doing some kind of deep dive unto the OS. Multiple distros, under multiple achitectures, have had critical component failures after installing some updates on fresh installations.

[Varusal]

6 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

He also assumes that Linux is breaking for me because I'm doing some kind of deep dive unto the OS. Multiple distros, under multiple achitectures, have had critical component failures after installing some updates on fresh installations.

Than you are clearly doing something wrong. 

[Stefan Payne]

1 minute ago, SirMorokei said:

And if Linux is so bad why did Microsoft implement the linux sub-system into windows?

Because you didn't read what he or I was saying.

Neither of us said Linux was garbage in general.

 

We said that for a consumer Linux is shit.

Big difference.

That also implies that for other situations, Linux might be a good idea. And that's also what I say. You won't find a statement from me anywhere, where I say that Linux in general is garbage, if I didn't have my mind wandering around while writing the statement. Not here, not in German Forums! I always admit that its great for servers, where you can make your own Linux and install it in a way you want it to.

 

 

 

But once you start the graphical interface and work with it, the trouble begins. And all of the Desktops are garbage!

Gnome for imitating OSX - wich is bullshit when you have many dozens or hundreds of applications installed. Its fine for a hand full, minimalistic one, but for more I want the standard "Windows" Start Menu thingy...

 

Others are somewhere between Windows 95 and XP, maybe Vista...

And then there is KDE wich you have to learn new...

For some features there isn't even a graphical interface made, only commandline.

 

So no, Linux is not great for normal Consumers. Its for servers and HPC. But Consumers? It will never happen because the Community is not developing for those guys!

And also:

There is a reason why M$ stopped the individual Updates and only makes one each month!

Because that decreases the possible Problems.

 

 

[Drak3]

Just now, SirMorokei said:

Than you are clearly doing something wrong. 

Please stop running your mouth on "clearly its YOU" when the problem is isolated to Linux. Either offer advice or an actual rebutal.

[Stefan Payne]

9 minutes ago, pipnina said:

Which sends you into a "TTY" window, which is independent of Xorg display server. From here you can run

ps aux | grep <name of program you wish to kill>

Which tells you a list of programs by name, path of execution, and process ID (PID).

 

Then, you can finally type:

kill -9 <offending_process_PID>

Which forcibly kills the process. You then type ctrl+alt+F# (different distros have the gui on different numbers) to return to the GUI, which should be unfrozen.

You kinda prove my point

That is a bit too complicated for the normal user. With Windows you use the usual "CTRL+ALT+DEL" and you get the right screen for that to either start the Task Manager or logoff.

 

11 minutes ago, pipnina said:

So you see, .deb and .rpm are not really a big issue, they just cater to different package managers and will contain the same program.

The Issue is that not all software comes in either format, some only in DEB and the Fragmentation leads to some things not being able to installed with the provided scripts...

With M$ Windows and Apple's OSX, you have a clear defined way to install programms that works rather well.

 

13 minutes ago, pipnina said:

ELF is the exe equivalent of Linux, it is the binary format which all Linux programs use

Haven't seen steaminstaller.elf yet

And that is what I'm criticizing...

 

Before you want to bring it to the Consumer, you have to define a standard Installer Package, a way to install drivers, a standard executable, that you can put somewhere and start the Programm with.

16 minutes ago, pipnina said:

It should be noted that WINE (and thus proton) can cause havoc under bad circumstances with the display server. Linus was trying to run an unsupported program at the time as well.

Windows has mechanism against that and reboots the graphics driver when something went wrong.

So you're just saying that Linux is way behind Windows in this Regard

Its this thing that was introduced with Windows Vista:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/2665946/display-driver-stopped-responding-and-has-recovered-error-in-windows-7

 

19 minutes ago, pipnina said:

I hope that clears things, and I have not mis-interpreted your grievance.

I appreciate your posting.

Thanks for trying to help and not insult people who do not like Linux for their reasons.

[Drak3]

4 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Haven't seen steaminstaller.elf

That's because there can't be a universal Linux .EXE/.MSI equivalent. Some distros are incompatible with each others' software.

[ryao]

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

I thought you were a reasonable guy, seems like I was wrong...

Because now you come with some nonsense that no consumer really cares about.

That's Server Stuff and on Server it doesn't seem too complicated:

https://www.rootusers.com/how-to-mount-an-nfs-share-in-windows-server-2016/

Why should they care about Samba either? It is server stuff too.

 

What is unreasonable about pointing out that Samba is not the only solution for networked storage and that it is a more fair comparison when both platforms' preferred network storage solutions are used? Being called unreasonable for pointing that out is like being called unreasonable for talking about Chrome because Edge exists, although I guess Microsoft would disagree:

 

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/04/microsoft-claims-to-make-chrome-safer-with-new-extension/

Quote

But I can also mention that many Linux Distributions don't come with exFAT support preinstalled, you have to install that manually.

The same goes for XFS filesystems. Also one of the features you have to install manually, for example on Ubuntu.

It depends on what that distributions' preferred filesystems are. Windows does not come with ext4, XFS, ZFS or btrfs support either. You need to install it. In the case of Windows, you do not even get the opportunity to install ReFS on most systems. Microsoft removed support for it from the more mainstream versions. As far as I know, they do not allow you to download and install it without paying them for a more expensive version.

Quote

And if there is a Filesystem Corruption? Just boot Windows.

Yeah, great, super... 

Great Idea!

I am one of the ZFSOnLinux developers (although less active these days). ZFS is far more robust against corruption than other filesystems, so I can't really relate. Corruption from bugs in different system filesystem drivers when the same filesystem is taken back and forth between systems is a real risk for any filesystem though. ZFS has done a great job at minimizing such issues through code reuse between different platforms though.

Quote

As for the Question why exFAT for an external Drive:
Because you can use the drive with Windows, as a Backup for your Playstation 4 and other stuff.

 

Yeah, there are soo many things using that, you know??

You said "there are no defined executables like it is on Windows (OS/2, OSX and so on)", but that is not true. I think you meant something else when you said executable. I am not sure what that is though.

Quote

For example Steam - oh wait, that comes with the .deb container. Or other stuff that also comes in .deb and sometimes .rpm.

Yeah, that's great... 

...and here we go again...

Packaging has nothing to do with executable formats.

Quote

Instead of constructive discussions, we are doing whataboutism and poiting fingers instead of trying to solve the Problems or admit the problems that Linux has.

There are problems, but I don't think you are highlighting them.

Quote

Why do you guys always have to do that and can't accept what other people have to say about Linux and always try to flame them?!

You are not being flamed. If you were, you could report those doing it to a moderator.

Quote

That solves nothing, the Windows users will stay with Windows, people reading this will certainly not want to switch to Linux, when they see that they won't be helped when something breaks...

The community does a decent job of providing support, although IRC is typically the way that is done. Distribution forums are another place to get help. I suspect that this forum is not the best place to ask. I would be happy to point you in the right direction for community support on specific issues.

[pipnina]

1 minute ago, Stefan Payne said:

You kinda prove my point

That is a bit too complicated for the normal user. With Windows you use the usual "CTRL+ALT+DEL" and you get the right screen for that to either start the Task Manager or logoff.

Well, on that front I might concede that a linux version of ctrl+alt+delete would be nice. However usually with windows, even though that screen is basically guaranteed to work, the task manager is not once it is open. If a program is generally obstructing it in some way it will remain useless. The TTY method bypasses this by using a different system all together. Maybe a program (even terminal based, but not command-driven alternative) would be good there?

 

4 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

The Issue is that not all software comes in either format, some only in DEB and the Fragmentation leads to some things not being able to installed with the provided scripts...

With M$ Windows and Apple's OSX, you have a clear defined way to install programms that works rather well.

 

Haven't seen steaminstaller.elf yet

And that is what I'm criticizing...

A self-extracting .sh file (aka a batch file installer, you double click and it installs from there) is more like a .exe installer, games from GoG use it as well as some other software. However, because it does not register in the package manager's registry, you have to keep the installer around.

Also, it is possible to convert .rpm files to .deb, and vice-versa using alien: https://wiki.debian.org/Alien so neither side of the story is left out really. Maye not ideal? But it works and would rarely need to be used anyway, as well as being a simple enough command IMO.

15 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Windows has mechanism against that and reboots the graphics driver when something went wrong.

So you're just saying that Linux is way behind Windows in this Regard

Its this thing that was introduced with Windows Vista:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/2665946/display-driver-stopped-responding-and-has-recovered-error-in-windows-7

This is something that I don't think is exactly a problem on Linux, since I believe that graphics driver does not crash and it is the display server at fault (Xorg). In those situations it is the program causing a blockage somewhere and not the server AFAIK. So the process killing method would work here. We would just need a more user-friendly method of doing that by your definition I think.

[Stefan Payne]

1 minute ago, ryao said:

Why should they care about Samba either? It is server stuff too.

Now its getting rediculous and you show that you aren't really interested in a constructive discussion...

 

Why they should care about SMB? Because that is what like 80% of the Market might use and have?? But hey, just don't care about the majority of the consumer/home user and do your own stuff.

 

3 minutes ago, ryao said:

ZFS is far more robust against corruption than other filesystems

How can I backup my Playstation4 on a ZFS drive??

 

4 minutes ago, ryao said:

You said "there are no defined executables like it is on Windows (OS/2, OSX and so on)", but that is not true. I think you meant something else when you said executable. I am not sure what that is though.

And where are the Linux Programms I download off the Internet and execute? Like HWMonitor, GPU-Z under Windows? Something like that. 

6 minutes ago, ryao said:

Packaging has nothing to do with executable formats.

Shows the Fragmetation Problem that Linux has and what makes it hard to use for Consumers...

 

[ryao]

21 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Haven't seen steaminstaller.elf yet

And that is what I'm criticizing...

An exe or elf binary is more general than an installer. You can make one, although it is a fairly terrible idea (as you are running arbitrary code), which is why it never happened on Linux. The closest that Linux has to this is mojosetup, which uses a shell script and is similarly dangerous:

 

https://icculus.org/mojosetup/

 

Crossover uses mojosetup as its installer. Steam could too. It probably should because of how terrible the installation process is due to its desire to manage its own updates:

 

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Steam#Manual

 

That makes it incompatible with distribution level package management. In crossover's case, it doesn't do its own updates of itself, so it still can be packaged properly. I am actually the maintainer for the app-emulation/crossover-bin package in Gentoo.

 

That said, mojosetup is not something that I would want to see become common place.

[colonel_mortis]

Just a friendly reminder that both sides have both advantages and disadvantages, and this discussion is coming disturbingly close to being a flame war.

Maybe Linux works well for you, or maybe you have been running into issues with your use cases. That doesn't mean that everybody should use Linux, nor that it hasn't come a long way towards being more practical for the general consumer.

 

I will ask, once, that this discussion/argument ends here. Other members are free to discuss other aspects of the video, but please don't start an argument again.