Google employees protest work on censored search engine for China

[Ryujin2003]

How does Google get any work done work all these protests...

[Trik'Stari]

22 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I agree that more regulation may be necessary for sites like youtube and facebook, but I don't think it would result in extremists getting more visibility. It would probably be great for educational and niche content though, linux channels for example get constantly demonetized for no discernible reason.

 

Regulating it like this however may kill google's interest in keeping the website running though, it's not profitable as it is and it would get worse if it were declared to be a public space. It would also set a weird precedent - what counts as too big?

 

Also yes, they should absolutely do a better job of clarifying what they will or will not accept on their site.

1. This isn't about extremists getting more visibility. As the extremists are the ones controlling who gets seen. This is about ensuring that their counterparts get visibility under the same platform. This is about preventing one group of extremists from controlling what the entire population sees and "knows", whilst refusing to allow any other extremist the right to speak, be seen, or heard.

 

2. If that kills googles interest, fine. Let someone else take their place. Someone will ALWAYS be willing.

 

3. We already have precedents on what qualifies as "too big". Sadly our government, at least in the US, gets paid off to ensure the valid government reaction ever occurs. (See: American ISP's, for evidence)

[Arika]

yay politics

[PlayStation 2]

Relevant:

 

[spartaman64]

i dont understand whats so bad about this. its not like if google doesnt release in china there wont be censorship in china. if they dont release in china there will still be censored searches just crappy ones

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Sauron said:

There is no censorship on youtube, google doesn't remove videos because the government told them to. This on the other hand would mean removing results as mandated by the government, which is censorship of google itself.

 

For our Chinese friends, I'll just leave this here: duckduckgo.com

Well if we filter out all the bullshit, fortnite videos, memes and sexy prank videos we’re left with Linus, Wendell and Gamers Nexus

[asus killer]

YT can't change censorship in China. It's better to be there and people have one more option than not. Even censured but that's not on YT

[suicidalfranco]

lol, the commies at google opposed to tge only communist super power, probably telling themselves it's not real communism while actively trying to shut down everyone they disagree with.

[mr moose]

57 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

Well if we filter out all the bullshit, fortnite videos, memes and sexy prank videos we’re left with Linus, Wendell and Gamers Nexus

And mustie1, chucke2009, jodies welding tips and tricks and about a trillion children's music ripoffs.

[Noctus]

10 hours ago, Sauron said:

This is a complete misunderstanding of what censorship is. The rule of thumb is: if it's not enforced by the government, it's not censorship. If I owned a theatre and you wanted to perform a piece I don't like, not allowing you to do it on MY stage would not be censorship.

It would be more like you owning a building with multiple theaters inside that people can reserve slots to preform on. Noone knows whats on in the multiple stages this day/week until they view the "whats on" area in the lobby. Except you've decided to put loads of posters covering plays you don't agree with with those that you do and the only way people would know whats on @ "x" room is by going there since theres a poster of whats preforming right next to the door.

 

It's not that you(tube) are denying my umm "right" to preform and show what i have to offer in your building because you(tube) are a "cool guy" etc etc but you're doing your damnedest to push my act waaaaaay down the pile in favour of what you agree with...

 

is what i believe @EarthWormJM2 is trying to say.

 

@EarthWormJM2 close?

 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

And mustie1, chucke2009, jodies welding tips and tricks and about a trillion children's music ripoffs.

I think Te Anau Mountain Biking should be in that list too.

[cj09beira]

2 hours ago, RorzNZ said:

Well if we filter out all the bullshit, fortnite videos, memes and sexy prank videos we’re left with Linus, Wendell and Gamers Nexus

more and more linus is starting to be bs themselves, most of their videos have little to no research done, i rarely watch their stuff now, only the wan show and some of the geeky server stuff 

[Doobeedoo]

Fuck censure in general. 

[Sauron]

3 hours ago, Noctus said:

It would be more like you owning a building with multiple theaters inside that people can reserve slots to preform on.

That makes no difference at all. If it's my building I have every right to run it as I please, especially if the reservation doesn't cost any money.

 

3 hours ago, Noctus said:

It's not that you(tube) are denying my umm "right" to preform and show what i have to offer in your building because you(tube) are a "cool guy" etc etc but you're doing your damnedest to push my act waaaaaay down the pile in favour of what you agree with...

So what? That's not censorship. Moreover, in the case of youtube it's not about who they "agree" with but rather who makes them more money. ALL political channels get regularly demonetized, controversy is bad for advertisers.

 

I never said it's nice of them, that doesn't make it censorship.

[Ryujin2003]

21 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

introducing Google Employee

I mean, if I questioned my employers business choices, they'd question writing my next paycheck....

[cj09beira]

26 minutes ago, Sauron said:

That makes no difference at all. If it's my building I have every right to run it as I please, especially if the reservation doesn't cost any money.

 

So what? That's not censorship. Moreover, in the case of youtube it's not about who they "agree" with but rather who makes them more money. ALL political channels get regularly demonetized, controversy is bad for advertisers.

 

I never said it's nice of them, that doesn't make it censorship.

the situation is more like you own 99% of all hotels and you don't allow "insert a political view here" to stay there, which basically means they have to stay in the streets 

thats not true left leaning channels rarely get demonetized,

trending never show right leaning videos (probably applies to other types of videos youtube staff doesn't like) even in cases where there is no doubt they are trending (there was an example not too long ago where a TYT video had 100000 views after a week and was on the trending page while a LwC video had 400000 in 3 days and was not on trending )

[Sauron]

4 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

the situation is more like you own 99% of all hotels and you don't allow "insert a political view here" to stay there, which basically means they have to stay in the streets 

thats not true left leaning channels rarely get demonetized,

trending never show right leaning videos (probably applies to other types of videos youtube staff doesn't like) even in cases where there is no doubt they are trending (there was an example not too long ago where a TYT video had 100000 views after a week and was on the trending page while a LwC video had 400000 in 3 days and was not on trending )

More like I own the largest, most prominent hotel, and even then I have every right to let whomever I want in or keep them out. The alternative is sleeping at your own home or in someone else's hotel, because believe it or not, there ARE other hosting platforms that aren't youtube.

 

As for "right leaning videos" not showing on trending, most explicitly leftist content isn't shown either. TYT is definitely on the right though, just not overtly enough to not be advertiser friendly... trending isn't about what people are watching, it's about what makes youtube the most money - sometimes the two overlap, sometimes they don't.

[cj09beira]

8 minutes ago, Sauron said:

More like I own the largest, most prominent hotel, and even then I have every right to let whomever I want in or keep them out. The alternative is sleeping at your own home or in someone else's hotel, because believe it or not, there ARE other hosting platforms that aren't youtube.

 

As for "right leaning videos" not showing on trending, most explicitly leftist content isn't shown either. TYT is definitely on the right though, just not overtly enough to not be advertiser friendly... trending isn't about what people are watching, it's about what makes youtube the most money - sometimes the two overlap, sometimes they don't.

youtube and google for that matter are imo have such a monopoly on content consumption that they should be treated as a public utility.

because sure you can go to other platforms but the amount of people using them is minuscule youtube is the only viable platform to post your videos.

[elfensky]

19 hours ago, Sauron said:

There is no censorship on youtube, google doesn't remove videos because the government told them to. This on the other hand would mean removing results as mandated by the government, which is censorship of google itself.

 

For our Chinese friends, I'll just leave this here: duckduckgo.com

They remove DMCA results already, and that's a government thing.

[Sauron]

1 hour ago, cj09beira said:

youtube and google for that matter are imo have such a monopoly on content consumption that they should be treated as a public utility.

That's beside the point, and google.com has a much more tangible monopoly than youtube since it has agency on the visibility of content it doesn't host.

1 hour ago, cj09beira said:

because sure you can go to other platforms but the amount of people using them is minuscule youtube is the only viable platform to post your videos.

That's [your] problem I'm afraid, freedom of speech doesn't mean [you] must also be able to make money off of broadcasting [your] opinion, nor does it mean anyone is forced to listen to [you] or give [you] a platform. Sure, one could say youtube uses anticompetitive practices and is a monopoly with excessive power, in which case there are laws in place that should be applied - that doesn't make what they do censorship.

 

[you] obviously isn't directed at you specifically.

3 minutes ago, ElfenSky said:

They remove DMCA results already, and that's a government thing.

The DMCA isn't there to suppress content, it's there to prevent you from stealing other people's content. Youtube will host copyrighted content if the author gave explicit permission for it, just look at things like Vevo. Is it a broken system with huge exploitation potential? Yes. Is it censorship? No, just like the ban of child pornography isn't censorship.

[Noctus]

2 hours ago, Sauron said:

That makes no difference at all. If it's my building I have every right to run it as I please, especially if the reservation doesn't cost any money.

 

So what? That's not censorship. Moreover, in the case of youtube it's not about who they "agree" with but rather who makes them more money. ALL political channels get regularly demonetized, controversy is bad for advertisers.

 

I never said it's nice of them, that doesn't make it censorship.

Umm it IS censorship. By the very definition, any "suppression of information" in the example EarthWormJim gave and what i tried to expand upon in relation to videos not being shown to what you subscribe to etc, is censorship.

[Sauron]

20 minutes ago, Noctus said:

Umm it IS censorship. By the very definition, any "suppression of information" in the example EarthWormJim gave and what i tried to expand upon in relation to videos not being shown to what you subscribe to etc, is censorship.

No, it's not. Suppression of information means that information is no longer available to the public, not that a given platform isn't hosting it. I'm so tired of arguing semantics with people who don't understand what words mean or what freedom of speech is; if your definition of censorship were correct, EVERY SINGLE OUTLET in the world would be enacting censorship, with no exception, and it would be impossible to have freedom of speech.

 

Don't want to host literally anything on your website? Censorship. Don't want to pay someone for uploading stolen content to your platform? Censorship. Don't want to show every single video you host to the totality of your userbase at the same time and with the same prominence? Censorship. Don't want to pay for a pedestal and a megaphone for every nutjob who'd like to speak on your stage? Censorship.

 

If you can't accept the meaning of words, I don't think there's any point to having a discussion. You speak of the definition of suppression; here is it:

Quote

the act of stopping or prohibiting the publication or revelation of

and guess what, it doesn't say "to not publish or reveal", it says "to stop or prohibit the publication or revelation of". If you host your own website with your own content, you are publishing and revealing your content and youtube can do NOTHING to stop you. If your "content" is a stolen music video, guess what, that content has already been published and revealed and the takedown of your reupload doesn't affect that.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Sauron
typo

[Noctus]

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

No, it's not. Suppression of information means that information is no longer available to the public, not that a given platform isn't hosting it. I'm so tired of arguing semantics with people who don't understand what words mean or what freedom of speech is; if your definition of censorship were correct, EVERY SINGLE OUTLET in the world would be enacting censorship, with no exception, and it would be impossible to have freedom of speech.

 

Don't want to host literally anything on your website? Censorship. Don't want to pay someone for uploading stolen content to your platform? Censorship. Don't want to show every single video you host to the totality of your userbase at the same time and with the same prominence? Censorship. Don't want to pay for a pedestal and a megaphone for every nutjob who'd like to speak on your stage? Censorship.

 

If you can't accept the meaning of words, I don't think there's any point to having a discussion. You speak of the definition of suppression; here is it:

and guess what, it doesn't say "to not publish or reveal", it says "to stop of prohibit the publication or revelation of". If you host your own website with your own content, you are publishing and revealing your content and youtube can do NOTHING to stop you. If your "content" is a stolen music video, guess what, that content has already been published and revealed and the takedown of your reupload doesn't affect that.

You don't seem to understand mine and Earths point. We are saying that videos we have subscribed for or channels we have selected to be in our feed ARE NOT BEING SEEN OR NOTIFIED OF in favor of videos pushed by youtube, that is quite clearly censorship. And if you bothered to read CORRECTLY, i wasn't stating the definition of suppression. I said Censorship, by the very definition, is "suppression of speech, public communication, or other information, on the basis that such material is considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient" as determined by a government or private institution, for example, corporate censorship"

 

That is the example Earth touched upon and i expanded upon as an example. If you can't read what i'm actually typing, there is no point to furthering this dicussion.

 

 

[Underwrought]

Dont be evil indeed.  This IS actually really scary.  Its scary google would actually agree to ACTIVELY and outright censor a whole nation.  Its scary the tech will now exist that could EASILY be implemented into our version of google search.  I do not like where our society is heading no matter which side of any political spectrum you might fall under.

[cj09beira]

16 minutes ago, Underwrought said:

Dont be evil indeed.  This IS actually really scary.  Its scary google would actually agree to ACTIVELY and outright censor a whole nation.  Its scary the tech will now exist that could EASILY be implemented into our version of google search.  I do not like where our society is heading no matter which side of any political spectrum you might fall under.

don't be naive google does already lots of shady stuff to our searches