Should tech influencers be sponsored by and support grey market sites?

[Liquid_Z]

Recently Science Studio has posted a video where in it he recommends to the general public to purchase Windows 10 keys from this "reputable" (his words) grey market website. This is a sponsored post where he does reveal early on that he is being paid by that company to produce this video.

 

Grey market keys historically can come from (but not restricted to) legitimate purchases made with stolen credit cards, fraudulently obtained education keys at a discount then violating the TOS when sold for resale, or volume licenses that are not intended for individual resale. These license keys sold via these channels carry the potential to be blacklisted at any time. The risk varies depending on how the specific key was obtained in the first place, something you have no way to determine. This video mentions none of this. (Polygon has a great a article this here: https://www.polygon.com/2015/2/9/8006693/the-truth-behind-those-mysteriously-cheap-gray-market-game-codes)

 

As a result, I wouldn't say that Science Studio has acted in a wholly ethical manner. There's no doubt that people will save $ on purchasing a grey market key (as comments in the video show), but should people In his position (or greater even) be recommending this dubious solution? A solution that ultimately rip off companies and game developers. Should tech influencers not hold themselves to a higher standard? Am I the only one that thinks that way?
 

 

[App4that]

Others have done videos on this, even Linus admitted to having Windows running without a key. I can't say much on it *cough*

 

This is meh, they aren't hiding it so if there was a problem Microsoft could take action. I'd rather have a tech infuencer being supported by a grey site, than them creating a war between fans which we see far too much of in an attempt to get followers. 

[yolosnail]

I personally have no problem buying from a site like this, as for the price of one legit Windows key I can buy 20 of these, so if the key gets deactivated (which it won't because Microsoft make too much money from your data), then I can buy another and I'll still have saved a fortune. Pretty much all of my steam games were bought from G2A back when their prices were cheap.

What I do have a problem with is these sites being promoted as 'legit' sites without all the implications being mentioned in the video. If I recall correctly, he makes it look like because they key activated first time, that Windows will stay active, and doesn't mention that Microsoft could potentially deactivate it.

If these points are highlighted then i have no problem with YouTubers promoting these sites, my problem is when they promote them as totally legit, the same as buying direct from Microsoft, when they aren't

[TheGlenlivet]

3 minutes ago, Liquid_Z said:

Snip

If they are upfront about it as SCST is, I am ok with it.  

I've used Kinguin before (same shit, different site) and any time I've ever had an issue they addressed and solved it professionally.

MS blacklisting keys would be more trouble than it's worth for them, in my opinion.  They made their money on the front end selling them.  They gave FREE upgrades for WIN 8/7 users.  It's not worth the fight.  

Now, if suddenly everyone went to these sites to get keys and MS had a huge drop in WIN sales, that could change.  But we are talking about the enthusiast fringe here.

[Mutoh]

I dont really care either way. 

 

 

 

IIRC even Paul has made videos on them too.

[Streetguru]

19 minutes ago, Liquid_Z said:

 

Grey markets seem like they do more harm than piracy(which is probably close to 0...) for game devs

Microsoft lets you download and install windows 10 without a key, so I don't know why anyone would bother paying for one at this point. Most of their money comes from other places as well.

[Liquid_Z]

15 minutes ago, App4that said:

Others have done videos on this, even Linus admitted to having Windows running without a key. I can't say much on it *cough*

That's actually completely fine. Microsoft has opened Windows 10 so that Windows 10 can be installed without a key. There are some limitations until activated though, like more restrictive personalization settings and a watermark appearing on the bottom right. But yeah, a Windows 10 installed through this method would otherwise work as intended and Linus (and anyone else for that matter) is certainly able to do that no-problemo. No financing shady companies required.

[App4that]

7 minutes ago, Streetguru said:

Grey markets seem like they do more harm than piracy(which is probably close to 0...) for game devs

Microsoft lets you download and install windows 10 without a key, so I don't know why anyone would bother paying for one at this point. Most of their money comes from other places as well.

 

3 minutes ago, Liquid_Z said:

That's actually completely fine. Microsoft has opened Windows 10 so that Windows 10 can be installed without a key to be activated later. There are some limitations though like more restrictive personalization settings and a watermark appearing on the bottom right. But yeah, a Windows 10 installed through this method would otherwise work as intended and Linus (and anyone else for that matter) is certainly able to do that no-problemo.

Going to do the TOS dance. So gomen

 

You don't have to live with the water mark, you actually get more access than moving from 8 or older to 10 if you got in in time. My Windows 8 key won't allow me to do a fresh install, support told me I wan't allowed to do a fresh install to 10 using a key for 8. But the Media creation tool works just fine. Just takes a few steps. 

[Liquid_Z]

3 minutes ago, App4that said:

My Windows 8 key won't allow me to do a fresh install, support told me I wan't allowed to do a fresh install to 10 using a key for 8. But the Media creation tool works just fine. Just takes a few steps. 

Yeah, that's similarly what I did when I upgraded from 8 to 10 as well. It was cool that Microsoft did that. Kind hope they continue to move in that direction. 

[App4that]

3 minutes ago, Liquid_Z said:

Yeah, that's similarly what I did when I upgraded from 8 to 10 as well. It was cool that Microsoft did that. Kind hope they continue to move in that direction. 

They locked me out because I did a fresh install moving from Intel to AMD, and back. Was told I had to run 8, or buy a copy of 10. Even though I had been running 10 for over a year with the key for 8.

 

Soooo. Media creation tool to the rescue 

[Liquid_Z]

20 minutes ago, TheGlenlivet said:

If they are upfront about it as SCST is, I am ok with it.  

He's upfront about being sponsored by them, but that's about it. He doesn't talk about the risks, where the keys come from, whom people are are actually supporting with their purchase, and that these key purchased from these websites are done so against Microsoft TOS and are ultimately not legitimate keys.

 

Being paid by the grey market website means that ill-informed public only hear, "The key activation worked! You should by one too! They're a reputable seller!". Science Studio is being disingenuous to the public by omitting these facts. And he's doing so for some $'s in his bank account. That's concerning to me.

[jtmoseley]

33 minutes ago, yolosnail said:

I personally have no problem buying from a site like this, as for the price of one legit Windows key I can buy 20 of these, so if the key gets deactivated (which it won't because Microsoft make too much money from your data), then I can buy another and I'll still have saved a fortune. Pretty much all of my steam games were bought from G2A back when their prices were cheap.

What I do have a problem with is these sites being promoted as 'legit' sites without all the implications being mentioned in the video. If I recall correctly, he makes it look like because they key activated first time, that Windows will stay active, and doesn't mention that Microsoft could potentially deactivate it.

If these points are highlighted then i have no problem with YouTubers promoting these sites, my problem is when they promote them as totally legit, the same as buying direct from Microsoft, when they aren't

G2A is a money laundering service that steals money from developers. Supporting them is literally aiding criminals.

 

If you didn't know, basically the process is this:

 

Criminal steals credit card information

Criminal uses said information to buy tons of games

Criminal sells games at a discounted price on g2a as soon as they can before everything is refunded

Once it is refunded, the developer sometimes has to pay a fine and cannot take away the key due to public backlash for removing keys

 

Its a no bueno

[Liquid_Z]

37 minutes ago, yolosnail said:

What I do have a problem with is these sites being promoted as 'legit' sites without all the implications being mentioned in the video. If I recall correctly, he makes it look like because they key activated first time, that Windows will stay active, and doesn't mention that Microsoft could potentially deactivate it.

 

If these points are highlighted then i have no problem with YouTubers promoting these sites, my problem is when they promote them as totally legit, the same as buying direct from Microsoft, when they aren't

I certainly can agree with you on some of those points. It's not that bringing awareness to these sites is necessarily an issue. But that if in being paid by the grey market reseller results in the omission of the negative (and ethically dubious) sides of their business, then that is something we should not condone.

[App4that]

5 minutes ago, Liquid_Z said:

He's upfront about being sponsored by them, but that's about it. He doesn't talk about the risks, where the keys come from, whom people are are actually supporting with their purchase, and that these key purchased from these websites are done so against Microsoft TOS and are ultimately not legitimate keys.

 

Being paid by the grey market website means that ill-informed public only hear, "The key activation worked! You should by one too! They're a reputable seller!". Science Studio is being disingenuous to the public by omitting these facts. And he's doing so for some $'s in his bank account. That's concerning to me.

He's not actually being disingenuous really. If the keys work. He's not saying anything that's not true, or bending any facts. 

[TheGlenlivet]

2 minutes ago, Liquid_Z said:

He's upfront about being sponsored by them, but that's about it. He doesn't talk about the risks, where the keys come from, whom people are are actually supporting with their purchase, and that these key purchased from these websites are done so against Microsoft TOS and are ultimately not legitimate keys.

 

Being paid by the grey market website means that ill-informed public only hear, "The key activation worked! You should by one too! They're a reputable seller!". Science Studio is being disingenuous to the public by omitting these facts. And he's doing so for some $'s in his bank account. That's concerning to me.

Maybe I think we are putting to much responsibility on SCST and not enough on ourselves. 

The bottom line is there are no free lunches.  If WIN 10 from MS costs $100-200 then of course the $13 version isn't 100% legit.  It couldn't be.  It's called Grey Market for a reason right?  Does anyone think they are buying the exact same thing from SCD/Kinguin as from MS?

He got paid to advertise for them and their website and he should have gone into better detail about how the Grey Market works.  Agreed.

G2A, is a whole different story and they are bad JUJU...

[Liquid_Z]

Just now, App4that said:

He's not actually being disingenuous really. If the keys work. He's not saying anything that's not true, or benhe ding any facts. 

Greg is a smart guy must know more then what we lets on that he does about the grey market key industry in this video. By omitting what he knows, he is being disingenuous with his followers and general public. He doesn't even mention the term grey market keys at all.

At the 4 minute mark Greg say, "As far as I'm concerned they're very reputable. It's works for me, you guys saw it in my video. This is a website I do [approve of]." He then says, "I don't know where they gets the keys from..." which might give some pause, but not greg as he dismisses this when he laughs and says, "...but they work, and that's really all a consumer needs to worry about".

[Streetguru]

40 minutes ago, Liquid_Z said:

Yeah, that's similarly what I did when I upgraded from 8 to 10 as well. It was cool that Microsoft did that. Kind hope they continue to move in that direction. 

The only reason they allowed the free update was to get their windows 10 numbers up because they knew the OS was trash, it's the same reason DX12 is windows 10 exclusive. Also very likely why intel/amd are basically only allowing 10 on their newest hardware, aside from the money saved in driver dev time.

[App4that]

2 minutes ago, Liquid_Z said:

Greg is a smart guy must know more then what we lets on that he does about the grey market key industry in this video. By omitting what he knows, he is being disingenuous with his followers and general public. He doesn't even mention the term grey market keys at all.

At the 4 minute mark Greg say, "As far as I'm concerned they're very reputable. It's works for me, you guys saw it in my video. This is a website I do [approve of]." He then says, "I don't know where they gets the keys from..." which might give some pause, but not greg as he dismisses this when he laughs and says, "...but they work, and that's really all a consumer needs to worry about".

Do you have evidence the key are stolen, and that Greg knows about it?

 

To me this is a deal with Microsoft. To be disingenuous Greg needs to know they're stolen. 

[Liquid_Z]

5 minutes ago, App4that said:

To be disingenuous Greg needs to know they're stolen. 

They're not a authorized reseller. These keys have not been obtained by official channels. These keys would have come from (but not restricted to) legitimate purchases made with stolen credit cards, fraudulently obtained education keys at a discount then violating the TOS when sold for resale, or volume licenses that are not intended for individual resale. If Greg doesn't know this he should't have a Tech Youtube channel. This information is common knowledge in this industry espaiclly thanks to Polygon's article that went viral in 2015 directly about grey market websites. Suggesting he doesn't know this is a slight against his intelligence. However you're free to share your evidence to support your knowledge claim that he doesn't know these truths.

[App4that]

1 minute ago, Liquid_Z said:

They're not a authorized reseller. These keys have not been obtained by official channels. These keys would have come from (but not restricted to) legitimate purchases made with stolen credit cards, fraudulently obtained education keys at a discount then violating the TOS when sold for resale, or volume licenses that are not intended for individual resale. If Greg doesn't know this he should't have a Tech Youtube channel. This information is common knowledge in this industry espaiclly thanks to Polygon's article that went viral in 2015 directly about grey market websites. Suggesting he doesn't know this is a slight against his intelligence. However you're free to share your evidence to support your knowledge claim that he doesn't know these truths.

You're making an assumption, one without evidence. 

[Liquid_Z]

3 minutes ago, App4that said:

You're making an assumption, one without evidence. 

What I'm proposing is an inductive logical argument. For that I don't need to have a quote from Greg admitting to X.

[App4that]

You have to first show the keys are not legit. To do that you can't use other sites, you have to show evidence the site in question has not obtained their key in a way that makes them legit. OEMs like HP and Lenovo sell millions of PCs, you think they pay 100 bucks each? No, same here only the seller is going cheap to make a profit off of volume. I'm making an assumption as well, I lack the evidence needed to have it not be an assumption. 

[Liquid_Z]

Just now, App4that said:

You have to first show the keys are not legit. To do that you can't use other sites, you have to show evidence the site in question has not obtained their key in a way that makes them legit. OEMs like HP and Lenovo sell millions of PCs, you think they pay 100 bucks each? No, same here only the seller is going cheap to make a profit off of volume. I'm making an assumption as well, I lack the evidence needed to have it not be an assumption. 

I really suggest that you do some research in this area. That Polygon article is a great place to start and the LTT video on OEM's is a good place to follow up. If you understood the basics of OEM's you'd know that these are lot valid legitimate licenses that they are selling. Best of luck mate.

[App4that]

2 minutes ago, Liquid_Z said:

I really suggest that you do some research in this area. That Polygon article is a great place to start and the LTT video on OEM's is a good place to follow up. If you understood the basics of OEM's you'd know that these are lot valid legitimate licenses that they are selling. Best of luck mate.

You're profiling though. Just because one source isn't legit, it has nothing to do with another.

 

It comes across as you're upset you paid 100 bucks for Windows, which you should be. 

[LogicalDrm]

On 5/7/2018 at 8:36 PM, App4that said:

even Linus admitted to having Windows running without a key. I can't say much on it *cough*

 

Running Windows without key isn't against anything. Win10 has infinite trial. And LMG uses 30-day full trials constantly to run tests. Linus did mention in one recent video that he has since activated all non-legit copies with legit keys. He didn't say how those PCs got non-legit keys, if they even were using non-lehit keys and just non-activated ones.

 

23 hours ago, Liquid_Z said:

They're not a authorized reseller. These keys have not been obtained by official channels. These keys would have come from (but not restricted to) legitimate purchases made with stolen credit cards, fraudulently obtained education keys at a discount then violating the TOS when sold for resale, or volume licenses that are not intended for individual resale. If Greg doesn't know this he should't have a Tech Youtube channel. This information is common knowledge in this industry espaiclly thanks to Polygon's article that went viral in 2015 directly about grey market websites. Suggesting he doesn't know this is a slight against his intelligence. However you're free to share your evidence to support your knowledge claim that he doesn't know these truths.

 

While you are making rather wide assumptions, to which I do agree, few things are missing from your intel.

 

One, G2A and others are just marketplaces. Just like Amazon and eBay. But unlike the two US ones, these don't have anything in their ToS to prevent selling keys that violate original ToS. There is part which "prevents" selling anything which is obtained with illegal methods. In the end those parts just make sites themselves legit, like it or not. Sellers can still do whatever they want, but host site is required to takedown any ad which is reported and conflicts with their ToS. eBay doesn't allow sales of digital keys at all. Yet somehow they are more legit place to get non-legit keys than G2A and Kinguin. What do you think of that?

 

Two, in attempt to gain some more respect (and perhaps getting more spotlight in tech-tubers) G2A has added requirement for Windows/Microsoft keys. Seller must provide valid proof that they are licensed reseller of digital keys. This means that you aren't going to find any Windows keys on that site. Why would you, all cheap keys are violating something.

 

---

 

As whether tech-tubers etc. should do sponsor spots or not. Really its up to them and their morals. Just like its up to anyone who buys from cheap-key-sites if their morals allow such things or not. I would just like them to acknowledge that these sites are marketplaces and keys come from individual sellers. I would also have them strongly advice that MSRP for Windows keys starts at $€80 for OEM copies and $€120 for retail ones (Home).