How Much Does Apple Know About You? (Basically Nothing)

[billstelling]

Their is a big diff, with Windows 10, you can shut all of that down. You have the option with them to have what you do tracked, privately, for the convenience of hot swapping on your devices, with the option of turning it all off and going dark if you choose.

 

Microsoft only requires some data when you are in doing the beta bit for them and using the test builds, but only system related info, nothing about you. Perfectly fine under those conditions and once again, nothing at all personal is collected except what is authorized by the user if they are using certain apps that require that function to work correctly like messenger and ect.

 

My gripes with Widows have nothing to do with security or personal data. Thankfully, over time, they have been fixing most of them and things look to be progressing well with how they are doing things now with this new model. Had they not rushed it out the way they did, it more than likely would have been received a bit better. I won't touch Apple with a 10 foot pole.. There is a taint about them and there has been since the inception of the iPhone and what they did with it to bilk so many in it's lifetime.

 

I started running up the red flag on day one of the release of the second gen iPhone as it was the same phone with really no improvement in performance or look. It amounted to buing a new phone just for a software upgrade, and a mild one at that. It wasn't until the iPhone 5 that we saw any noteworthy changes in the device.

 

Shallow flattery and shiny beads...

[Okjoek]

4 hours ago, Eaglerino said:

The dream sentence every government wants to hear from every citizen

The sentence of a man who has nothing to hide.

[79wjd]

1 hour ago, billstelling said:

I started running up the red flag on day one of the release of the second gen iPhone as it was the same phone with really no improvement in performance or look. It amounted to buing a new phone just for a software upgrade, and a mild one at that.

Ya....not quite.

 

The 2nd gen iPhone (e.g. the iPhone 3G) added support for 3G and GPS while cutting the price in half. Meanwhile the 1st gen iPhone still received the updated version of iPhone OS -- iPhone OS 2 and 3 (until 3.1.3). On top of that, iPhone OS 2 was a major improvement over iPhone OS 1 in that it allowed third party app support. The big thing with the iPhone 3G was that it was significantly cheaper while offering a significantly faster 3G connection. It should have had a more powerful SoC, but even without bumping it, it was still ahead of the market.

1 hour ago, billstelling said:

It wasn't until the iPhone 5 that we saw any noteworthy changes in the device.

Also not quite. The iPhone 4 was just as big of an improvement as the 5 was. 

 

There was the incremental update -- the 3GS, which saw a significant speed boost (hence the S), double the RAM, a better camera, better battery life, and more storage. 

 

The iPhone 4 redesigned the phone to something that looks significantly nicer (and ironically caused a major problem with the antenna in the process), significantly improved the display, was much thinner, had a significantly better camera, added a front camera, added a flash, a significantly faster SoC, and doubled the RAM again.

 

The 4s was another incremental update, significantly more powerful SoC, added Bluetooth 4.0, added GLONASS, added Siri, fixed the antenna issue, and again improved the camera. 

 

The 5 added a much faster SoC, 4G, bigger screen, better camera, more RAM, replaced the 30 pin connector with the lightning connector, lowered the weight, and made it thinner. 

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

2 hours ago, Okjoek said:

The sentence of a man who has nothing to hide.

Bullshit

 

Everyone has stuff to hide.  Every day you make several decisions on what you tell to certain people and what to others.  There's always something you don't want other people to know. 

 

 

[Commodus]

5 hours ago, billstelling said:

Their is a big diff, with Windows 10, you can shut all of that down. You have the option with them to have what you do tracked, privately, for the convenience of hot swapping on your devices, with the option of turning it all off and going dark if you choose.

 

Microsoft only requires some data when you are in doing the beta bit for them and using the test builds, but only system related info, nothing about you. Perfectly fine under those conditions and once again, nothing at all personal is collected except what is authorized by the user if they are using certain apps that require that function to work correctly like messenger and ect.

 

My gripes with Widows have nothing to do with security or personal data. Thankfully, over time, they have been fixing most of them and things look to be progressing well with how they are doing things now with this new model. Had they not rushed it out the way they did, it more than likely would have been received a bit better. I won't touch Apple with a 10 foot pole.. There is a taint about them and there has been since the inception of the iPhone and what they did with it to bilk so many in it's lifetime.

 

I started running up the red flag on day one of the release of the second gen iPhone as it was the same phone with really no improvement in performance or look. It amounted to buing a new phone just for a software upgrade, and a mild one at that. It wasn't until the iPhone 5 that we saw any noteworthy changes in the device.

 

Shallow flattery and shiny beads...

There's a certain irony to swearing off Apple for bilking people in one sentence, but bending over backwards moments before that to claim that Windows 10's ads and data sharing aren't really that bad, see you can turn them off and... yeah.  Why not just tell the truth: that you prefer Windows and that you're willing to put up with Microsoft's crap because you prefer that over Apple's higher prices.

 

Also, I don't know what universe you live in, but the second gen iPhone (the iPhone 3G) was a gigantic leap in most respects.  It had 3G (go figure), GPS, more storage out of the gate, a more wireless-friendly design and a much lower on-contract price (that last part was more business negotiation than anything, but still).  It was the iPhone that finally appealed to people beyond early adopters.  And I'd argue that the iPhone 4 was a much bigger improvement than the iPhone 5.  Retina Display, front-facing camera, 5-megapixel rear camera, and of course that metal-and-glass redesign.  The 5, as much as I liked mine, was more an evolution.

[LAwLz]

7 hours ago, Trixanity said:

I'm pretty sure Microsoft already collects that. At least with enhanced telemetry and/or UWP apps. I don't see any chance of Microsoft not having that knowledge. Microsoft will probably enhance their dataset with Timeline.

Yes, they have always collected it. I don't think they collected it with telemetry dial down to the lowest setting though. So the only difference really is that you now have to disable it in two places (assuming it actually gets disabled when you turn the feature off).

 

 

7 hours ago, billstelling said:

Their is a big diff, with Windows 10, you can shut all of that down. You have the option with them to have what you do tracked, privately, for the convenience of hot swapping on your devices, with the option of turning it all off and going dark if you choose.

How exactly? What you are describing is certainly not possible from within the regular settings/control panel.

Microsoft has also made several changes to Windows which makes it so that you sometimes believe things are turned off, but they are still collecting the data.

 

 

7 hours ago, billstelling said:

Microsoft only requires some data when you are in doing the beta bit for them and using the test builds, but only system related info, nothing about you. Perfectly fine under those conditions and once again, nothing at all personal is collected except what is authorized by the user if they are using certain apps that require that function to work correctly like messenger and ect.

No, this is 100% wrong.

It is not just for the beta testers, and it does include a lot of information about you (as in, personal information). Check the links I posted earlier in the thread.

 

 

5 hours ago, Okjoek said:

The sentence of a man who has nothing to hide.

Are you saying that you do not have anything you wish to hide from someone else?

PM me all your passwords, PI and things such as your banking details. Actually, forget about the PM part. I want you to post it in this thread for everyone to see.

 

The only reason why you would deny my demand is if you do in fact have something to hide from me.

[Okjoek]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Are you saying that you do not have anything you wish to hide from someone else?

PM me all your passwords, PI and things such as your banking details. Actually, forget about the PM part. I want you to post it in this thread for everyone to see.

 

The only reason why you would deny my demand is if you do in fact have something to hide from me.

 

4 hours ago, Captain Chaos said:

Bullshit

 

Everyone has stuff to hide.  Every day you make several decisions on what you tell to certain people and what to others.  There's always something you don't want other people to know. 

You're right. I went a bit too far and left myself open to these exceptions.

 

There is in fact healthy paranoia, but I take a strong stance in favor of strong leadership as a tool for reform of the Social, economic and political structures we live with. There is a double edge to this sword of justice, but I alter my lifestyle towards one of simplicity in as many ways as possible to mitigate potential consequences and that includes being a relatively honest and open person who does not keep many secrets or lies that I could regret.

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

32 minutes ago, Okjoek said:

I alter my lifestyle towards one of simplicity in as many ways as possible to mitigate potential consequences and that includes being a relatively honest and open person who does not keep many secrets or lies that I could regret.

The issue with that is that what may seem innocent and good now may not always be considered that.  Even simple things like your religion can be used against you if the wrong people get into power. 

I don't consider myself overly paranoid, but I'd rather not have the government or corporate entities know anything more about me than is strictly necessary.

 

As for strong leadership, that's a bit of an issue nowadays.  We can only hope things will get better eventually. 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Okjoek said:

 

 

There is in fact healthy paranoia,

I think you might be referring to skepticism or an uncertainty or distrust.  Paranoia is an irrational and mostly persistent condition that is usually never regarded as healthy.

[aezakmi]

their phones have a frontal camera aiming for the users face all the time and no way to tell if the device is recording or taking pictures (light indicators, vibration, etc) and they're absolutely not using it? oh, please... and let's not mention the microphone on 24/7

not just apple, basically every single mobile phone manufacturer around the globe.

[79wjd]

3 minutes ago, aezakmi said:

their phones have a frontal camera aiming for the users face all the time and no way to tell if the device is recording or taking pictures (light indicators, vibration, etc) and they're absolutely not using it? oh, please... and let's not mention the microphone on 24/7

not just apple, basically every single mobile phone manufacturer around the globe.

It's actually quite easy to figure out if the camera/mic is recording and transmitting; if that was actually happening then it would have been published by now. I'm not saying the camera is never turned on without you knowing -- it's certainly possible that someone could have hacked into it, but the idea that Apple/Microsoft/Samsung/etc... is recording/transmitting from the camera is ridiculous. 

[asus killer]

21 hours ago, LAwLz said:

...

you make a case out of everything. Those aren't ads, they are app suggestions and you can turn them off. There's no need to give an email or your name or your phone,... Even firefox has telemetry and you can turn it off. etc...

 

i guess when you want to pick on something you can. Not to say it's by no means perfect but comparing this to google or facebook or even apple with the information you end up by giving them, i repeat seems odd. Apples and oranges.

[Phentos]

How much does Apple know about me? Probably not much, considering I haven't owned an Apple product since the iPhone 3GS, which my parents bought for me.

 

I used to be a huge stickler over privacy and personal data policies but I've stopped caring tbh. Companies are going to sell your data no matter what you do, unless you give up all these nice services that are offered and live like a virtual recluse. That doesn't mean I just give out my info to every website or service in existence. In fact I am extremely picky when it comes to that because I hate spam emails, since I have major OCD about clean and organized email inboxes.

 

The notable exception is Facebook and other social media they control, such as Instagram. Mark Zuckerberg is a sociopath, so I draw the line when it comes to their social media services. Deactivated my Facebook account back in 2012 and haven't regretted it one bit.

 

Call me a sheep or whatever, but I frankly don't care anymore. You only have one life in this world, live it and enjoy it.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Phentos
correcting typos and oversights

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, asus killer said:

Those aren't ads, they are app suggestions and you can turn them off.

I don't think you checked out the full list. A lot of them are ads, even if you don't include "app suggestions" as ads. By the way, app suggestions like those in Windows are ads. I recommend you look up the word ad in a dictionary if you don't believe they are.

 

1 hour ago, asus killer said:

Even firefox has telemetry and you can turn it off. etc...

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Firefox's telemetry is not like Windows' telemetry. They are not the same in terms of transparency, options or what they collect. Also, why do you make the assumption that Firefox's telemetry is OK, and by extent Microsoft's?

 

1 hour ago, asus killer said:

i guess when you want to pick on something you can. Not to say it's by no means perfect but comparing this to google or facebook or even apple with the information you end up by giving them, i repeat seems odd. Apples and oranges.

I take it you did not read the links I posted. Microsoft collects a massive amount of personal data through telemetry as well as other services within Windows (for example whenever you do a local search on your Windows 10 computer, it contacts Bing).

 

Why is it odd to compare Microsoft's data harvesting to Google? Have you actually looked into what data Microsoft collects? Something tells me you haven't.

[XenosTech]

26 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I don't think you checked out the full list. A lot of them are ads, even if you don't include "app suggestions" as ads. By the way, app suggestions like those in Windows are ads. I recommend you look up the word ad in a dictionary if you don't believe they are.

 

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Firefox's telemetry is not like Windows' telemetry. They are not the same in terms of transparency, options or what they collect. Also, why do you make the assumption that Firefox's telemetry is OK, and by extent Microsoft's?

 

I take it you did not read the links I posted. Microsoft collects a massive amount of personal data through telemetry as well as other services within Windows (for example whenever you do a local search on your Windows 10 computer, it contacts Bing).

 

Why is it odd to compare Microsoft's data harvesting to Google? Have you actually looked into what data Microsoft collects? Something tells me you haven't.

Microsoft collects so much data on you that they could theoretically replace you with a clone and no one would probably notice

 

Also why does this entire thread seem like deja vu ?

[asus killer]

48 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

 

we will have to agree to disagree. Btw google by the search engine, by chrome (and it's market share is ridiculous) or android (the most used phone OS) knows everywhere you've been if you like most people don't turn of location, all you're browsing and personal data, etc...Google is in an all different league, Facebook is bad but i can only imagine what Google has on everyone of us. The difference being that Facebook is more of an option you make, Google is almost inevitable. That's why i don't use Chrome, at least minimize a little the damage.

Putting Windows in the same league makes no sense to me.

[Trixanity]

1 hour ago, asus killer said:

we will have to agree to disagree. Btw google by the search engine, by chrome (and it's market share is ridiculous) or android (the most used phone OS) knows everywhere you've been if you like most people don't turn of location, all you're browsing and personal data, etc...Google is in an all different league, Facebook is bad but i can only imagine what Google has on everyone of us. The difference being that Facebook is more of an option you make, Google is almost inevitable. That's why i don't use Chrome, at least minimize a little the damage.

Putting Windows in the same league makes no sense to me.

Because Microsoft is as ubiquitous as Google. They are in the same league. You can choose where you put your stuff (to some degree) but avoiding Google in favor of Microsoft or vice versa is just putting many or all of your eggs in one basket. You're still sharing a lot of data. More than most would like. However at this point it's the nature of the beast. 

[billstelling]

Interesting comments.. Funny that I seem to have it all turned off somehow, with ease I might add. With Windows 10 and within my google account. A simple YouTube search will net you all the results you need to accomplish such as well. Firefox also..

 

Something you can not do within Apples ecosystem.. They will also not allow any apps or programs in there closed system that could help in that regard either as they do not want any of it turned off. It is their bread and butter so to speak. They want to keep you locked into using only their products and do everything they can to limit others on their platform that offer similar products and services. They don't even want you to be able to repair your own bought and paid for hardware, somehow thinking they have exclusive rights to that hardware and not you, the end user, who paid for it.

 

Apple is the epitome of crony capitalism, all the while pretending they are anything but. They have mastered the bilk..

[79wjd]

 

40 minutes ago, billstelling said:

Interesting comments.. Funny that I seem to have it all turned off somehow, with ease I might add. With Windows 10 and within my google account. A simple YouTube search will net you all the results you need to accomplish such as well. Firefox also..

 

Something you can not do within Apples ecosystem.. They will also not allow any apps or programs in there closed system that could help in that regard either as they do not want any of it turned off. It is their bread and butter so to speak. They want to keep you locked into using only their products and do everything they can to limit others on their platform that offer similar products and services. They don't even want you to be able to repair your own bought and paid for hardware, somehow thinking they have exclusive rights to that hardware and not you, the end user, who paid for it.

 

Apple is the epitome of crony capitalism, all the while pretending they are anything but. They have mastered the bilk..

Could you possibly spew more bullshit.....

 

 

[divito]

48 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

 

 

Not sure what you're trying to show there.

 

1. It says "Limit ad tracking," not 'Disable ad tracking.'

 

2. Analytics, maybe that's accurate to be turned off, though it says "automatically sending daily" - Doesn't mean they couldn't acquire those analytics themselves; though this is less likely.

3. Share your location - only applies expressly to family and friends for those specific apps as listed. Doesn't mean they aren't logging or utilizing that information in any capacity.

4. Suggestions being off just means you're not receiving suggestions, not that they aren't storing data about your searches or other phone activity. 

[79wjd]

21 minutes ago, divito said:

Not sure what you're trying to show there.

 

1. It says "Limit ad tracking," not 'Disable ad tracking.'

 

2. Analytics, maybe that's accurate to be turned off, though it says "automatically sending daily" - Doesn't mean they couldn't acquire those analytics themselves; though this is less likely.

3. Share your location - only applies expressly to family and friends for those specific apps as listed. Doesn't mean they aren't logging or utilizing that information in any capacity.

4. Suggestions being off just means you're not receiving suggestions, not that they aren't storing data about your searches or other phone activity. 

 

[DrMacintosh]

3 hours ago, billstelling said:

Something you can not do within Apples ecosystem.. They will also not allow any apps or programs in there closed system that could help in that regard either as they do not want any of it turned off. It is their bread and butter so to speak. They want to keep you locked into using only their products and do everything they can to limit others on their platform that offer similar products and services. They don't even want you to be able to repair your own bought and paid for hardware, somehow thinking they have exclusive rights to that hardware and not you, the end user, who paid for it.

 

Apple is the epitome of crony capitalism, all the while pretending they are anything but. They have mastered the bilk..

The literal definition of fake news

[LAwLz]

5 hours ago, asus killer said:

we will have to agree to disagree.

No, this is not some "we have to agree to disagree" topic. This is not up for debate because I am basing my points of well documented facts, which you have not refuted with facts of your own.

 

5 hours ago, asus killer said:

Btw google by the search engine, by chrome (and it's market share is ridiculous) or android (the most used phone OS) knows everywhere you've been if you like most people don't turn of location, all you're browsing and personal data, etc...Google is in an all different league, Facebook is bad but i can only imagine what Google has on everyone of us. The difference being that Facebook is more of an option you make, Google is almost inevitable. That's why i don't use Chrome, at least minimize a little the damage.

Putting Windows in the same league makes no sense to me.

I don't get this argument. Are you trying to say that Microsoft can't collect as much data because they have the most popular search engine, most popular browser and Android (most popular phone OS)?

Microsoft has the most popular PC OS, which is far more powerful than merely having the search engine or browser which runs on top of it.

 

But now we are moving the goalpost from "it's just an urban legend" to "ok they are doing it, but they aren't as bad as X!". It doesn't matter if Google is worse. Shitty behavior from one company does not excuse shitty behavior from another company.

The problem is that you said Microsoft's data collection was an urban legend, which is either a deliberate lie to mislead people, or you speaking from some pretty strong ignorance.

 

Let's go through what your claims were.

1) You claimed that Windows had a good balance between price and privacy. This is fairly subjective but if you compare it to the free alternatives it's pretty shitty. You pay a fairly significant amount, and still get all the data harvesting found in let's say Android (which is free). So I don't see how paying to get your data harvested is a good balance when you can get that for free.

I think your stance on this is based on the (incorrect) idea that Microsoft isn't harvesting a ton of data through Windows 10 (or maybe the incorrect idea that Windows 10 is free, which seems to be a common misconception too).

 

2) You said that the data collection through Microsoft was just an urban legend. Urban legends are defined as anecdotes that are based on hearsay. Microsoft's data collection in Windows 10 is not hearsay. It is fairly well documented and confirmed by Microsoft themselves. It is happening. There is no point in denying it.

 

3) You said there were no ads. There are, and a lot of it. Saying that they aren't ads but rather "suggestions" makes you sound really silly by the way. Next you'll be telling me it's not ads running on my TV, it's just "suggestions for which tampon I should get". Even WindowsCentral, the Windows equivalence of MacRumors, correctly calls these things for what they are. Ads.

 

4) You said there was no personal data. This is incorrect. At least two governmental bodies have found that Microsoft's data harvesting in Windows 10 violates privacy laws in their countries. First it was France, and then it was the Netherlands. They are also, or have been, investigated by Germany, Spain and the UK among others.

This is the reason why so much has changed in terms of data collection in Windows 10 since launch. For example Microsoft currently "only" collects about half of the data they collected in the beginning, but it's still a massive amount.

The EU definition of personal data is:

Quote

Personal data is any information relating to an individual, whether it relates to his or her private, professional or public life. It can be anything from a name, a photo, an email address, bank details, your posts on social networking websites, your medical information, or your computer's IP address.

Are you really going to say that Microsoft does not collect anything which could be classified as personal data from Windows? Remember, the things listed there are just examples, not the complete list.

 

5) You said they never asked for your email. They did when you installed Windows. But there was an option (fairly hidden) which allowed you to create a local account instead. They gave you the option, but they asked for your email and put all the focus on that.

 

6) You said you can turn telemetry off but never explained how. It is certainly not something you can turn off with a simple click in  the settings. At best you can turn it to "basic", which still contains a tremendous amount of personal data. Not to mention that Microsoft has a bad habit of either resetting changes you have made, or changing things so that previous methods of blocking things no longer works.

[GER_T4IGA]

Although this appears to look and sound very promising I have to admit I don't see a reason to simply take a companies word for it. I am using and Android phone and it should disgust me that my personal data log did not fit my 15GB free google drive sapce but that is obviously my fault too for using their service.
What I am suggesting is: The best practice is to encrypt everything and trust nobody. I hope that is consensus. 

Why do people go ahead and "blindly" trust these logs. Google could be sending me 300MB instead of 25GB and say 'that is all there is'. They might be but anyone else could be just as much.

[asus killer]

49 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

No, this is not some "we have to agree to disagree" topic. This is not up for debate because I am basing my points of well documented facts, which you have not refuted with facts of your own.

 

I don't get this argument. Are you trying to say that Microsoft can't collect as much data because they have the most popular search engine, most popular browser and Android (most popular phone OS)?

Microsoft has the most popular PC OS, which is far more powerful than merely having the search engine or browser which runs on top of it.

 

But now we are moving the goalpost from "it's just an urban legend" to "ok they are doing it, but they aren't as bad as X!". It doesn't matter if Google is worse. Shitty behavior from one company does not excuse shitty behavior from another company.

The problem is that you said Microsoft's data collection was an urban legend, which is either a deliberate lie to mislead people, or you speaking from some pretty strong ignorance.

 

Let's go through what your claims were.

1) You claimed that Windows had a good balance between price and privacy. This is fairly subjective but if you compare it to the free alternatives it's pretty shitty. You pay a fairly significant amount, and still get all the data harvesting found in let's say Android (which is free). So I don't see how paying to get your data harvested is a good balance when you can get that for free.

I think your stance on this is based on the (incorrect) idea that Microsoft isn't harvesting a ton of data through Windows 10 (or maybe the incorrect idea that Windows 10 is free, which seems to be a common misconception too).

 

2) You said that the data collection through Microsoft was just an urban legend. Urban legends are defined as anecdotes that are based on hearsay. Microsoft's data collection in Windows 10 is not hearsay. It is fairly well documented and confirmed by Microsoft themselves. It is happening. There is no point in denying it.

 

3) You said there were no ads. There are, and a lot of it. Saying that they aren't ads but rather "suggestions" makes you sound really silly by the way. Next you'll be telling me it's not ads running on my TV, it's just "suggestions for which tampon I should get". Even WindowsCentral, the Windows equivalence of MacRumors, correctly calls these things for what they are. Ads.

 

4) You said there was no personal data. This is incorrect. At least two governmental bodies have found that Microsoft's data harvesting in Windows 10 violates privacy laws in their countries. First it was France, and then it was the Netherlands. They are also, or have been, investigated by Germany, Spain and the UK among others.

This is the reason why so much has changed in terms of data collection in Windows 10 since launch. For example Microsoft currently "only" collects about half of the data they collected in the beginning, but it's still a massive amount.

The EU definition of personal data is:

Are you really going to say that Microsoft does not collect anything which could be classified as personal data from Windows? Remember, the things listed there are just examples, not the complete list.

 

5) You said they never asked for your email. They did when you installed Windows. But there was an option (fairly hidden) which allowed you to create a local account instead. They gave you the option, but they asked for your email and put all the focus on that.

 

6) You said you can turn telemetry off but never explained how. It is certainly not something you can turn off with a simple click in  the settings. At best you can turn it to "basic", which still contains a tremendous amount of personal data. Not to mention that Microsoft has a bad habit of either resetting changes you have made, or changing things so that previous methods of blocking things no longer works.

 

 

just turn off the frickin ads, man are you frickin kidding me. If you like them go nuts, if not they let you turn them off, what the hell more do you want? You even brought bing to the discussion, bing, come on. 

I could go one and answer point by point but honestly i give up, you do this for everything, do i have to agree with you by force. I give up, windows and ads are a problem, are you happy, i have no ads on my windows, but hey go nuts. And the "agree to disagree" was a polite way of putting it