Claim that some types of Altcoin *are* money laundering?

[TechyBen]

Interesting take on the subject by Computerphile. A claim here that Monero was made to money launder. Does that mean it has ethical and/or legal repercussions? It would put me off using it, vs Bitcoin. As I'd see Bitcoin as purely anonymous/trading value trading and Monero as purely zero repercussion trading.

 

 

[brwainer]

I don’t think this is “Tech News” per se, but I did just watch this video also. 

 

Does a builtin laundering feature mean it has legal repercussions? Absolutely, because you only launder money if it has been tainted, and you can’t legally own something “in good faith” if you know its been tainted or have reasonable suspicion. Does such a feature have ethical repercussions? I think on a society level yes, on an individual level ethics are a personal matter.

[TechyBen]

2 minutes ago, brwainer said:

I don’t think this is “Tech News” per se, but I did just watch this video also. 

 

Does a builtin laundering feature mean it has legal repercussions? Absolutely, because you only launder money if it has been tainted, and you can’t legally own something “in good faith” if you know its been tainted or have reasonable suspicion. Does such a feature have ethical repercussions? I think on a society level yes, on an individual level ethics are a personal matter.

Ah, you are right, should have been discussion. Whoops!

 

You seem right on the legal/moral thing. Could it be said Bitcoin is anonymous by design, but so is money. However, Monero is untraceable by design. Technically, money is. But it's interesting Bitcoin does not hit this "problem".

[minervx]

they're made to buy drug, but honestly litecoin is working fine on that

[ravenshrike]

11 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

A claim here that Monero was made to money launder.

This is like saying that the torrent protocol was made to illegally download content. Monero was made to function equivalent to cash in the digital world. It's still technically trackable, but only if you stay on it every step of the way in the chain exactly like cash. What you can't do is say when and where every person had ahold of the currency in question. Which you can't do with cash either. Those claiming otherwise are the same kinds of people who want to abolish cash in the first place precisely so everything can be tracked. Zcash is fundamentally different from Monero precisely because you have a choice whether to launder it or not.

[KarathKasun]

Monero was designed specifically to enhance anonymity.  Which you could argue is intent to facilitate black market appeal, not that Im making that argument.

[Razor Blade]

Doesn't surprise me. I'm sure that people launder money in every way imaginable...even if it's just a car wash  

[TechyBen]

7 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

This is like saying that the torrent protocol was made to illegally download content. Monero was made to function equivalent to cash in the digital world. It's still technically trackable, but only if you stay on it every step of the way in the chain exactly like cash. What you can't do is say when and where every person had ahold of the currency in question. Which you can't do with cash either. Those claiming otherwise are the same kinds of people who want to abolish cash in the first place precisely so everything can be tracked. Zcash is fundamentally different from Monero precisely because you have a choice whether to launder it or not.

Intent can have a massive difference. For example, buying a knife to make dinner from vegetables. VS buying a knife to make dinner from the neighbours.

 

While you cannot prove intent, and chasing without knowing it is a problem... if someone says "I'm buying a knife to attack", then intent is know. Is it known that Monero is for laundering?

 

Even without the intent, does Monero break some laws Bitcoin does not? In your example, AFAIK torrent protocol breaks no law of themselves, but the contents can. A trade can break the law (failure to note on tax returns when applicable etc)? Is there anything mechanically involved in altcoins that can make them illegal then?

 

I guess it only makes the laundering facilities doing it knowing they have "bad" coins the problem, not the protocol it's self?

[Razor Blade]

Monero is amoral just like many other things. It is what humans do with it that makes it good or bad.

[ravenshrike]

2 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

Monero was designed specifically to enhance anonymity.  Which you could argue is intent to facilitate black market appeal, not that Im making that argument.

Except every piconero "serial number" stays the same. Which means that anytime one crosses into the hands of a monitored ring it can be tracked. It is exactly like cash in that respect. Now, the feds could easily make a law that any transaction which crosses state lines or international borders needs to be reported to be legal, but that doesn't have anything to do with the currency itself.

[KarathKasun]

Just now, ravenshrike said:

Except every piconero "serial number" stays the same. Which means that anytime one crosses into the hands of a monitored ring it can be tracked. It is exactly like cash in that respect. Now, the feds could easily make a law that any transaction which crosses state lines or international borders needs to be reported to be legal, but that doesn't have anything to do with the currency itself.

AFAIK on some networks, you can re-hash a coin.

[Misanthrope]

Whenever or not they were made to launder money is irrelevant when they all can and often are being used to launder money.

 

This will forever be the number one deterrent from Cryptocurrency: the fact that is without any kind of regulation is a detriment, not a feature.

[Kukielka]

ITT: 

 

[apm]

1 hour ago, TechyBen said:

Could it be said Bitcoin is anonymous by design, but so is money.

no its not? 

you can easily trace where your BTC are coming from and going.

[mynameisjuan]

16 minutes ago, apm said:

no its not? 

you can easily trace where your BTC are coming from and going.

Cash is not easily traceable AFAIK

[Sauron]

That is NOT what he said. He's saying that, if cryptos were classified as normal money, by law monero would be equivalent to money laundering. Please listen to what the guy is saying before putting words in his mouth.

[apm]

12 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

Cash is not easily traceable AFAIK

but bitcoin is, unless its bought with cash or gift cards.

[DrMacintosh]

Crypto is a haven for Money Laundering. I wonder how much gets laundered every day. 

[paddy-stone]

17 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Crypto is a haven for Money Laundering. I wonder how much gets laundered every day. 

Bet you it's a hell of a lot less than cash.

[asus killer]

1 minute ago, paddy-stone said:

Bet you it's a hell of a lot less than cash.

you don't actually launder cash with cash. 

[paddy-stone]

2 minutes ago, asus killer said:

you don't actually launder cash with cash. 

What?  cash comes into the laundering business of course, then that would get put into the bank, and hey presto laundered. Depends on who's doing the laundering of course though.

[DrMacintosh]

2 minutes ago, paddy-stone said:

What?  cash comes into the laundering business of course, then that would get put into the bank, and hey presto laundered. Depends on who's doing the laundering of course though.

Should watch Ozark on Netflix

[paddy-stone]

Just now, DrMacintosh said:

Should watch Ozark on Netflix

Yep, seen it... good show

 

[asus killer]

1 hour ago, paddy-stone said:

What?  cash comes into the laundering business of course, then that would get put into the bank, and hey presto laundered. Depends on who's doing the laundering of course though.

to launder cash you need some economic activity to do it, that's how you do it. You can't launder cash with cash, that wouldn't work, it would immediately raise red flags if you just tried to transform "bad dollars" into clean dollars or even euros or any other currency, without the mentioned activity as a intermediary

every country has laws that immediately force any bank to red flag any attempts to do so

[paddy-stone]

4 hours ago, asus killer said:

to launder cash you need some economic activity to do it, that's how you do it. You can't launder cash with cash, that wouldn't work, it would immediately raise red flags if you just tried to transform "bad dollars" into clean dollars or even euros or any other currency, without the mentioned activity as a intermediary

every country has laws that immediately force any bank to red flag any attempts to do so

OK, one thing... I never said you launder cash with cash... I said

 

5 hours ago, paddy-stone said:

Bet you it's a hell of a lot less than cash.

So yes, you take your cash to a drug dealer or criminal enterprize you favour, then they launder that cash through shell companies... so laundering cash.