nVidia GeForce Partner Program: Well Intention Marketing or Anti-Competitive

[Razor01]

17 minutes ago, Notional said:

Yes, it is anti consumer. All the trailers and tech demos had that in it, so non tech savvy consumers will think it will be like that on their pc. Then they find out performance will crash and burn, because they have a different GPU, that is otherwise as powerful. Furthermore, I believe the higher presets activated GameWorks, so you might get terrible performance without understanding why.

 

AMD did with TressFX. And it works great on Nvidia too. Because that is pushing the gaming industry without punishing certain consumers. It's a bizarre thing, how most Americans tend to defend corporations rights to screw them over.

 

You don't know the first thing about communism or Marxism it seems. A proprietary graphics engine is mutually exclusive to EU4. A black boxed API implemented into whatever graphics engine is not, however. Odd comparison.

Again marketing and what we are talking about two different things, a dumb consumer is always the best friend from a company. 

 

Oh because those higher presents in Gameworks hit AMD GPU's on their weakness?  Just because AMD's GPU's has problems with geometry throughput, doesn't mean mean a software that pushes that should be deemed anti competitive.

 

Tress FX it took AMD 4 years to get something out that competed with Hairworks lol and it still was harder to integrate for developers than Hairworks was.  But that point, nV moved on to things like God Ray's.  Sorry but again, lack of resources or foresight AMD went to the media to whine some more.

 

A proprietary game engine is different you say.  Gameworks Libs were precompiled, most developers only had access to the header files for integration.  Now they are open so times have changed.

 

You can't have have it both ways man, either something is open or its proprietary, and if its open then any one can access the code, if its proprietary its owned by the person/s that made the code.  Hence my statement, nV owns the code they made.

[Humbug]

7 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

Consumers can say all they want but a company that has better products and the market share.  Which the consumers gave to them in the first place because of the nature of competition, how much is change can the consumer real bring in such a situation.

??

nvidia only has better products in certain segments. And that's besides the point. We are not talking about who has the better product. My point is that you can call this 'complaining and whinging by AMD' like you did but it is very much of consumer interest. So it's good that they brought this to light.

 

The point is that these factors are of public interest regardless of whether something illegal is going on. When there is availability and people do buy GPUs they do make a choice between Nvidia and AMD. Yes most people do choose Nvidia, but still millions of other people around the world do choose AMD. This is more information for the consumers.

[pas008]

fyi you guys are making me drink on a sunday with all this

 

yes lies i like excuses but fact remains what gpp is isnt illegal

 

and their partners dont really deserve shit except profits

if they told them they must be green they should abide even how ridiculous but thats what partnerships do at times

 

me personally hate going somewhere to eat and being force to order a fucking sierra mist because only pepsi products

but I understand partnerships, company I work for has a partnership even being a small company I can understand why the partnership exists

co marketing and drop shipping along with other little perks,

our company wouldnt have survived without it especially what it pays its employees

[Razor01]

17 minutes ago, hobobobo said:

That is not free market at all) Neither would it be communism

Under the free market AMD would get access albeit for a fee

Under communism there would not be hairworks in the first place, but an open unifiend standart developed by a consorcium incuding amd nvidia intel qcom and god knows who

 

 

On the air jordans thingy, Jordan owns a part of the brand, its not like its all Nike's

And i sadly have no clue who Allen Iverson is so cant talk about that one

 

 

 

Jordan didn't make his own brand he made it after someone coined his name with Air in the middle lol.  But its his brand now because he made that happen.  his capabilities made it happen.  This is what the court ruling on Allen Iverson's case, another popular basketball player stated as the verdict.

 

Now in the context of this.  ROG brand was made by ASUS, but the ROG brand with gaming cards, without those cards, the ROG brand is useless in the graphics card market.  So if nV and Asus goes to court,  nV says it wants ROG nvidia and no other card there, as per the GPP agreement, because they want to control their own brand, its legal.  The court will say its up to the AIB to make that choice.  They don't need to, nor do they need to be part of the GPP.  The consequences only come into play if nV forced the AIB to do it by limiting them.  So if nV already stopped allocation of GPU's to force the AIB and OEM partners to sign with them, then it becomes illegal. But this must be done before the signing of such of contract.  So did nV stop allocation of GPU's to Asus and MSI as of right now?

 

All the other stuff in the contract, nV is saying upfront they will not get if they are not part of the GPP, which they don't get right now automatically anyways, its on a per case, per AIB basis.

[pas008]

4 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

 

 

Jordan didn't make his own brand he made it after someone coined his name with Air in the middle lol.  But its his brand now because he made that happen.  his capabilities made it happen.  This is what the court ruling on Allen Iverson's case, another popular basketball player stated as the verdict.

actually jordan got his own sub brand after being a very high lvl marketing figure, like tiger woods but they dropped him after the fact he was cheating on his wife, but funny thing is, jordan actually had to deal with cheating scandal too

air was first coined by an anouncer

[Notional]

1 minute ago, Razor01 said:

Again marketing and what we are talking about two different things, a dumb consumer is always the best friend from a company. 

 

Oh because those higher presents in Gameworks hit AMD GPU's on their weakness?  Just because AMD's GPU's has problems with geometry throughput, doesn't mean mean a software that pushes that should be deemed anti competitive.

 

Tress FX it took AMD 4 years to get something out that competed with Hairworks lol and it still was harder to integrated for developers than Hairworks was.  But that point, nV moved on to things like God Ray's.  Sorry but again, lack of resources or foresight AMD went to the media to whine some more.

 

A proprietary game engine is different you say.  Gameworks Libs were precompiled, most developers only had access to the header files for integration.  Now they are open so times have changed.

 

You can't have have it both ways man, either something is open or its proprietary, and if its open then any one can access the code, if its proprietary its owned by the person/s that made the code.  Hence my statement, nV owns the code they made.

Indeed, that is why consumers need to be force fed the horrible things companies do. Like GPP.

 

Oh come on, you can't be that naive. It was running a tessellation factor of 32-64x for no other reason than to screw over AMD users and older Nvidia users (you forgot about them). 

 

What are you talking about? Tomb Raider with TressFX came out before Call of Duty Ghosts with Hairworks. Hairworks was the shitty copy that ran like crap on everything but the newest highest end Nvidia GPU's. Obviously, middleware you just activate (but have no control over) is a lot easier to implement than TressFX that you can incorporate into your own code. That is why Rise of the Tomb Raider had features no other hair tech has made by the dev themselves. You don't know what you are talking about.

 

"Open". Only if the dev pays for it, rather than getting paid. That completely removes the point of using GameWorks. And that "open"ness only came about, after massive complaints by both AMD and lots of consumers.

 

Of course, you can have it both ways. It's called intellectual property rights.

[hobobobo]

2 minutes ago, pas008 said:

like i said we only find it in components

and technically this is regionally

dram is completely different story doesnt require drivers to work

 

i always find it funny when I'm reading about drivers and someone is trying to install nvidia drivers on amd system because thats what they thought they had

their needs to be separation period

I can post many topics on geforce and amd forums because that though they bought the latter

There was already an argument about drivers before, nVidia or AMD in case of GPUs are a component supplier, no matter how much they want to make it look otherwise. In time, Asus might decide to write their own drivers, just like miners already do. It not being economicly or otherwise sound decision, as of now, does not mean it wont be later. Whatever you find funny is irrelevant, just as the inability of certain individuals to read the damn label on the box. Your underlying argument is that consumers are just a fucken braindead cattle, unable to make adequate decisions and their choice should be limited coz of that.

 

And nobody is arguing against separation per se, but against overtaking established brands which are not exclusivly associated with nV or AMD, or even worse, "gaming" branding.

 

3 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

Jordan didn't make his own brand he made after some coined his name with Air in the middle lol.  But its his brand now because he made that happen.  his capabilities made it happen.  This is what the court ruling on Allen Iverson's case, another popular basketball player stated as the verdict.

I honestly struggle to understand the analogy here. Are you saying that Nike got no ownership of Air Jordans brand just beacause its his sportsmanship that made the brand? They both own the brand since MJ is the "face" and Nike is the "backbone" with all the design, marketing, production destribution etc. Its the same with nV and Asus, its not like nV runs ROG production or destribution lines, neither do they design the pcbs or marketing campaigns, they provide the damn capabilities. I cant imagine MJ coming to nike and saying that henceforth all basketball shoes shall be Air Jordans.

 

I reitarate, its fucken reatarded, as a consumer, to be on a side of a corporation until the point corporation decides to come clean and explain their decision extensivly. Thats is how you loose your precios free market and consumer power and get close to corporativism, which you called free market in the hairworks post

 

[Razor01]

5 minutes ago, Notional said:

Indeed, that is why consumers need to be force fed the horrible things companies do. Like GPP.

 

Oh come on, you can't be that naive. It was running a tessellation factor of 32-64x for no other reason than to screw over AMD users and older Nvidia users (you forgot about them). 

 

What are you talking about? Tomb Raider with TressFX came out before Call of Duty Ghosts with Hairworks. Hairworks was the shitty copy that ran like crap on everything but the newest highest end Nvidia GPU's. Obviously, middleware you just activate (but have no control over) is a lot easier to implement than TressFX that you can incorporate into your own code. That is why Rise of the Tomb Raider had features no other hair tech has made by the dev themselves. You don't know what you are talking about.

 

"Open". Only if the dev pays for it, rather than getting paid. That completely removes the point of using GameWorks. And that "open"ness only came about, after massive complaints by both AMD and lots of consumers.

 

Of course, you can have it both ways. It's called intellectual property rights.

 

 

Am I naive yes "sarcasm".

 

Ok, I'm going to show you some screenshots of characters I'm working on right now.  Tell me what these poly counts will do to Vega vs a mid range Pascal card.

 

http://i.imgur.com/sNlxbfh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uaTGI0M.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GhSq7Ph.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wfqYYHi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0zmRU0O.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qijU4nZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FDIYz2n.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/66Hldkt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/S7aNpBs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZOszQpU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bDI5KPh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zX7eJLw.jpg

 

 

This one character uses 250k polys, this is the in game character at x4 tessellation it goes up to 20 million polys,

 

Do you think know why this guy has so many polys, each piece of armor, each plate, moves separately, they move like they should in the real world. 

 

I would not have been able to do it with less that that many polys.  I did NOT want polys that were being stretched, Every single 3rd person game we have seen so far has this.  Even upcoming ones too!  I started designing the characters for this game prior to knowing the truth of Polaris and Vega.  AMD talked about geometry trough put and IPC improvements, I thought they were going to lift their limitations of geometry through put.  They didn't.  Did I purposefully make these characters so currently 30% of the market's hardware will run on them?  Our demo is coming out some time end of this year, No I didn't.  we expected something so we though it was ok to do it.

 

The first Tress FX sucked man, it had so many limitations its wasn't even funny.  It wasn't till TressFX 4.0 was it even a viable alternative to Hairworks.

[Notional]

7 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

 

 

Am I naive yes "sarcasm".

 

Ok, I'm going to show you some screenshots of characters I'm working on right now.  Tell me what these poly counts will do to Vega vs a mid range Pascal card.

 

http://i.imgur.com/sNlxbfh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/uaTGI0M.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GhSq7Ph.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wfqYYHi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0zmRU0O.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qijU4nZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FDIYz2n.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/66Hldkt.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/S7aNpBs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZOszQpU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bDI5KPh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zX7eJLw.jpg

 

The first Tress FX sucked man, it had so many limitations its wasn't even funny.  It wasn't till TressFX 4.0 was it even a viable alternative to Hairworks.

2

How would I know about your gaming engine? Not really what we are discussing, is it? TressFX 1 was not effective, no. Still better than Hairworks, but not by much. TressFX 2 was great though, as it improved performance significantly, as well as support for ingame physics engine. Deus Ex Mankind Divided and Rise of the Tomb Raider uses TressFX 3, which is superior in every way to any version of HairWorks. It only added a little more to TressFX 2 though. There is no TressFX 4 (edit: games using it that is).

[pas008]

10 minutes ago, hobobobo said:

There was already an argument about drivers before, nVidia or AMD in case of GPUs are a component supplier, no matter how much they want to make it look otherwise. In time, Asus might decide to write their own drivers, just like miners already do. It not being economicly or otherwise sound decision, as of now, does not mean it wont be later. Whatever you find funny is irrelevant, just as the inability of certain individuals to read the damn label on the box. Your underlying argument is that consumers are just a fucken braindead cattle, unable to make adequate decisions and their choice should be limited coz of that.

 

And nobody is arguing against separation per se, but against overtaking established brands which are not exclusivly associated with nV or AMD, or even worse, "gaming" branding.

 

I honestly struggle to understand the analogy here. Are you saying that Nike got no ownership of Air Jordans brand just beacause its his sportsmanship that made the brand? They both own the brand since MJ is the "face" and Nike is the "backbone" with all the design, marketing, production destribution etc. Its the same with nV and Asus, its not like nV runs ROG production or destribution lines, neither do they design the pcbs or marketing campaigns, they provide the damn capabilities. I cant imagine MJ coming to nike and saying that henceforth all basketball shoes shall be Air Jordans.

 

I reitarate, its fucken reatarded, as a consumer, to be on a side of a corporation until the point corporation decides to come clean and explain their decision extensivly. Thats is how you loose your precios free market and consumer power and get close to corporativism, which you called free market in the hairworks post

 

yes consumers are braindead

have you worked in manufacturing and dealt with osha? their rules are for the brain dead(actually use unpopular word here but thanks for reminding me)

 

and everyone here is jumping to conclusions here

asus rog brand actually fucked up here if they want to argue, they have rog but why rog strix now

and if we go back 5 yrs how many fucking sub branding is there

this isnt anything new just like motherboards who the fuck cares about its name now

all these aibs are doing is copying and pasting their fucking design anyways, so they deserve the fucking matter

 

and same goes for other conversation on game development

if a company chooses to use gameworks

so be it

they wanted to reduce fucking cost hold them accountable THEY ARE THE ONES THAT DECIDED TO USE IT

 

 

 

[hobobobo]

8 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

-snip-

You should slap your design team on the wrist, the character looks like another generic Master Chief)

On the side note, stop using waterfox) It was good before FF quantum update, now its straight up inferior, you can turn off all the telemetry in FF yourself)

[Razor01]

Just now, Notional said:

How would I know about your gaming engine? Not really what we are discussing, is it? TressFX 1 was not effective, no. Still better than Hairworks, but not by much. TressFX 2 was great though, as it improved performance significantly, as well as support for ingame physics engine. Deus Ex Mankind Divided and Rise of the Tomb Raider uses TressFX 3, which is superior in every way to any version of HairWorks. It only added a little more to TressFX 2 though. There is no TressFX 4 (edit: games using it that is).

Well As I stated, you don't know the ramifications of current GS units in AMD hardware to make any kind of conclusion on tessellation factors.  I know this shit because we just got burned by AMD's marketed crap.  Their marketing crap and the way they approach the public on "others" projects, they should just be worried about their own shit. 

 

Tress FX 1.0 was crap, it had shadow issues and lighting issues.  Sorry you are right Tress FX 2.0 was the one that made it comparable to Hairworks effects

[MoonSpot]

I haven't rolled my eyes this hard since that time some chick was yelling "I CAN AFFORD THAT!" at some 'unrelated' press conference.

[pas008]

and on that note i must say after pouring another drink

I have to say

if you go look at a toyota supra in person you can tell its a toyota supra

 

if you go look at a rog strix 1080/1080ti/vega56/64 you cant fucking tell the difference

 

and yes if you buying used you should always look under the hood car and etc but these fucking desings are being copy and pasted from one big corp to the next big corp

 

[Razor01]

5 minutes ago, hobobobo said:

You should slap your design team on the wrist, the character looks like another generic Master Chief)

On the side note, stop using waterfox) It was good before FF quantum update, now its straight up inferior, you can turn off all the telemetry in FF yourself)

 

 

First time I heard that, showed this fully textured of course on art forums, they loved it, Blizzard cinematic guys said I should contract out my work.

 

[Humbug]

1 minute ago, MoonSpot said:

I haven't rolled my eyes this hard since that time some chick was yelling "I CAN AFFORD THAT!" at some 'unrelated' press conference.

i don't understand this post but it sounds funny

[MoonSpot]

2 minutes ago, Humbug said:

i don't understand this post but it sounds funny

 

[XenosTech]

14 minutes ago, pas008 said:

if you go look at a rog strix 1080/1080ti/vega56/64 you cant fucking tell the difference

Can't tell the difference between the 1080ti/1080/1070ti/1070/1060 by just looking at them either... Want those to have their own sub branding too ?

[hobobobo]

21 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

First time I heard that, showed this fully textured of course on art forums, they loved it, Blizzard cinematic guys said I should contract out my work.

Should have uploaded textured screenshot as well then) And im not saying anything about the quality of the model, but only the design. As is - it is a master chief or doom marine.

 

Id say gamedevs should take a page out of nintendos book, but general market does not seem to want gameplay over fidelity, or at least it does not know that.

 

22 minutes ago, pas008 said:

if you go look at a toyota supra in person you can tell its a toyota supra

Id be able to tell only after seing the badge and reading the name on the back)

With either 3 of the scenarios i outlied you wont be able to tell either just from the look of the damn card, only for the reference designs. The branding is on the box

27 minutes ago, pas008 said:

yes consumers are braindead

have you worked in manufacturing and dealt with osha? their rules are for the brain dead(actually use unpopular word here but thanks for reminding me)

 

and everyone here is jumping to conclusions here

asus rog brand actually fucked up here if they want to argue, they have rog but why rog strix now

and if we go back 5 yrs how many fucking sub branding is there

this isnt anything new just like motherboards who the fuck cares about its name now

all these aibs are doing is copying and pasting their fucking design anyways, so they deserve the fucking matter

 

and same goes for other conversation on game development

if a company chooses to use gameworks

so be it

they wanted to reduce fucking cost hold them accountable THEY ARE THE ONES THAT DECIDED TO USE IT

 

OSHA rules are for the brain dead because of precedents and just having to legislate for the lowest common denominator because of the cost of a mistake - someones health or life.

This fallacy with consumers being braindead even has its own name (but i suck at remembering names) you only remember the worst ones. I worked in construction supplies manufacturing, and even as a b2b company we had basicly retarded partners, who needed their hand to be held until their engineering department showed up. Competent ones get offended at being treated like children and demand to cut the bullshit and give them the specs straight. I know that b2b is not the same as b2c, but you cant take away consumer freedom of choice based off inability of mentally deficient bros to read.

 

They have rog strix coz nvidia does not sell chips like candy, where every candy is the same. There are better binned chips and those are strix.

 

There is nothing wrong with gameworks, unless you can prove that its intentionally made in a way to hinder the performance of competitots and it is its main goal. I still dont like it, although im being told that it simplifies game development, in which case - good for them.

[Razor01]

1 minute ago, hobobobo said:

Should have uploaded textured screenshot as well then) And im not saying anything about the quality of the model, but only the design. As is - it is a master chief or doom marine.

 

Id say gamedevs should take a page out of nintendos book, but general market does not seem to want gameplay over fidelity, or at least it does not know that.

 

Id be able to tell only after seing the badge and reading the name on the back)

With either 3 of the scenarios i outlied you wont be able to tell either just from the look of the damn card, only for the reference designs. The branding is on the box

OSHA rules are for the brain dead because of precedents and just having to legislate for the lowest common denominator because of the cost of a mistake - someones health or life.

This fallacy with consumers being braindead even has its own name, but i suck at remembering names, you only remember the worst ones. I worked in construction supplies manufacturing, and even as a b2b companies we had basicly retarded partners, who needed their hand to be held until their engineering department showed up. Competent ones get offended at being treated like children and demand to cut the bullshit and give them the specs straight. I know that b2b is not the same as b2c, but you cant take away consumer freedom of choice based off inability of mentally deficient bros to read.

 

They have rog strix coz nvidia does not sell chips like candy, where every candy is the same. There are better binned chips and those are strix.

 

There is nothing wrong with gameworks, unless you can prove that its intentionally made in a way to hinder the performance of competitots and it is its main goal. I still dont like it, although im being told that it simplifies game development, in which case - good for them.

Well creative direction comes from what you are exposed to.  I created this model, with no concept art, Its my project so I do as I see fit lol.  Just started making something with an idea in my head.  So it came from things I have seen in the past. 

 

But case and point, I made over 4 characters, each one took me 1.5 months a piece, that's a lot of time because I need to make sure animations will look right when they are finally rigged and animated.  I can't just go back and change things on the fly just because I miss understood what AMD's marketing is all about.  I expected Polaris chips to handle at least up to the point they can compete with mid range maxwell's in geometry through put, they don't, Vega competes with Mid range maxwell's when it comes to polygon through put though lol.  That kind of gross misrepresentation, is not good anywhere.  Games take years to make, and artwork is only part of the cost and time, but its a big part of it.  As of now because of AMD's market share slide, it doesn't hurt much but still that 30% of the market to get the same game looks would be nice?  We can't do that, once I finish up the demo cinematic I will have to go back and make "special" lower poly characters if Navi doesn't solve this problem.  I have literally put 2 more characters that I have to do on hold, and level pieces as well.  I don't mind too much because I don't have strict time lines in what I'm doing, but it would be nice to have visablity on what I can or can't do.  Pretty much all bullocks on AMD's marketing.

[Notional]

33 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

Well As I stated, you don't know the ramifications of current GS units in AMD hardware to make any kind of conclusion on tessellation factors.  I know this shit because we just got burned by AMD's marketed crap.  Their marketing crap and the way they approach the public on "others" projects, they should just be worried about their own shit. 

 

Tress FX 1.0 was crap, it had shadow issues and lighting issues.  Sorry you are right Tress FX 2.0 was the one that made it comparable to Hairworks effects

I don't have to know. We are talking implementations from 2013 to 2015. Vega didn't exist then. Pascal wasn't a thing when Cod Ghost or Witcher 3 released. All I have to do is look at the graphics, the features and the performance penalty of TressFX and HairWorks. The former killed the latter in every implementation at the comparable times. And again, this is on both AMD and Nvidia cards. So not just from one point of view.

 

But I'm not really hating on HairWorks as such, but rather NVidias scummy black boxed implementation of it, and how it was set up.

[Razor01]

15 minutes ago, Notional said:

I don't have to know. We are talking implementations from 2013 to 2015. Vega didn't exist then. Pascal wasn't a thing when Cod Ghost or Witcher 3 released. All I have to do is look at the graphics, the features and the performance penalty of TressFX and HairWorks. The former killed the latter in every implementation at the comparable times. And again, this is on both AMD and Nvidia cards. So not just from one point of view.

 

But I'm not really hating on HairWorks as such, but rather NVidias scummy black boxed implementation of it, and how it was set up.

 

 

But there is a graphics fidelity difference between to the two and that is what causes the performance differences. 

 

On nV's approach to black boxed DLL's, no choice, its their software, did they use it to help themselves, yes, they did, but we can't say things against that, its not illegal to do so.  They aren't using those features to stop a game from playing on competitor's hardware.  The game will run with those features on, it just runs like crap or worse, and those features can be turned off if the player wants better frame rates.  If they put something in the code that says if detected AMD graphics card show black screen. Yeah I can see where it should be taken out and flogged.  But that isn't what its doing.

 

We have been talking about free markets all this time.  Free markets are never governed by any one, government or otherwise.  That is the definition of a free market.  We can't postulate what if some one does something.  Its either they did it to stop the free market, or they didn't.   Thats like saying this guy is going to commit murder so we will stop him right here and right now and detain him.  Can't do that, his civil rights will be abused.

 

This whole topic is based on philosophy of jurisprudence.  It really boggles my mind how people can think if something is slimy or crummy that something is automatically illegal or not part of a free market.    Because its a free market, companies act and behave slimy or crummy lol.  They are going to see how far they can push the law before they are stopped.  A company that is smart will go to the edge look over and then take one step back and be ok, catch me if you can, I know you can't.  A company that needs to do something illegal to maintain their presence in that marketplace is not a smart company, they are doing things out of desperation, AKA Intel.

[laminutederire]

24 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

 

You do know that higher poly isn't necessarily that much better?

You should still try to keep the polycount as low as possible, and you may want to try at remeshing tools once you're done so as to have less polys without noticeable changes if you haven't done so already.

There is a lot of theory done behind this to have error bounds.

[hobobobo]

12 minutes ago, Razor01 said:

-snip-

Aint gonna argue with RTG marketing being shit, it is. In fairness, the problem with vegas geometry troughput comes from AMD not delivering on some of the promised features, who knows why they failed. Marketing probably got overzealous hearing all the promised feautures and their implications and shot themselves in the foot

[Razor01]

11 minutes ago, laminutederire said:

You do know that higher poly isn't necessarily that much better?

You should still try to keep the polycount as low as possible, and you may want to try at remeshing tools once you're done so as to have less polys without noticeable changes if you haven't done so already.

There is a lot of theory done behind this to have error bounds.

 

My models look a hell of a lot better than whats in games right now.  Each model I have made, I don't use zbrush, I make them in 3ds Max all by hand the topology of the meshes are perfect and hand optimized, hand optimization is slow and the results are better than any automated processes out there.  Just for kicks I did try auto retop in zbrush and 3dcoat, neither of them gave me better results.  There really is no wasted polys.  yeah the character mesh is separate from the armor but those overlapping areas, there was a reason for that too, I want the armor to get damaged and pieces fall off or get shot off.  If I was just to remove those polys, the character will go down to 175k.

 

I've seen many games use parallax occlusion mapping but when the camera angle is just right, it I don't like looks of them.  So outside of surface details less than 1 cm, everything else should be modeled.

 

I could go as low as 120k per character and still keep the characters looking very close to what I have done, but then you still will be able to see sharper angles on some parts of the mesh and of course I wouldn't be able to have armor pieces flying off.  I don't want that either.  The vision I want for this game, is you are in the  world of something like a Final Fantasy 3d rendered movie.