nVidia GeForce Partner Program: Well Intention Marketing or Anti-Competitive

[Notional]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

Correction, no Auros branding on the AMD one.

Your "correction" is incorrect. There is no gaming branding on that thing at all. Only Gigabytes name.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

At the end of the day though, while the situation isn't that great, we're talking about stickers on boxes here. People who care about the stickers are hopefully informed enough to know what they are buying. On the bright side, this will probably lead to AMD and Nvidia products being easier to differentiate, if that's something you care about.

 

When this first came up I was in disbelief because they made it sound so bad I couldn't accept any company as established as Nvidia would be stupid enough to risk lawsuits and bad PR. but as it rolls on it is becoming more and more superficial.

 

The thing that astounds me is people are posting pictures that could have come from anywhere and any times and claiming this is proof.  When the actual manufacturers start doing something on their websites and we can actually see a decline in AMD product not attributed to anything else then I will accept that as the cause.

[LAwLz]

7 minutes ago, Notional said:

Your "correction" is incorrect. There is no gaming branding on that thing at all. Only Gigabytes name.

I guess it depends on what your definition of "gaming branding" is.

The product is literally called the "RX 580 Gaming Box". It is still being marketed as a gaming product, with a fancy box and slick product page.

 

It is branded like a gaming product, but it is not branded as being in the Auros line of products.

If your definition of "gaming branding" is = It has an Auros logo on it then you are correct. However, that also means that in your eyes, G1 or Windforce products from Gigabyte are lacking "gaming branding" as well, which I think is a very silly definition.

 

To me, all Auros branded products are gaming products, but not all gaming products are Auros branded.

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, Notional said:

For now.

Of course that's for now. that's how rational logical people approach these things.  When the evidence changes we change our opinions.

[Notional]

20 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

It is branded like a gaming product, but it is not branded as being in the Auros line of products.

So it's NOT using Gigabytes gaming brand, like GPP dictates? Alright then.

 

18 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Of course that's for now. that's how rational logical people approach these things.  When the evidence changes we change our opinions.

The evidence is there. You just chose not to believe in it. That's fine. But considering NVidia's scummy anti consumer behaviour for many years, as well as the leaked documents, as well as the stone wall and censorship hitting ALL news outlets on this matter, any rational person would indeed see the writing on the wall.

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, Notional said:

So it's NOT using Gigabytes gaming brand, like GPP dictates? Alright then.

 

The evidence is there. You just chose not to believe in it. That's fine. But considering NVidia's scummy anti consumer behaviour for many years, as well as the leaked documents, as well as the stone wall and censorship hitting ALL news outlets on this matter, any rational person would indeed see the writing on the wall.

huh??  you tell me the evidence is there even though I posted a link to the companies website showing the exact opposite, then you go on a rant about anti consumer and leaked documents and censorship allegations and you use the word "believe" like I should have faith your emotions are right and the actual evidence is wrong.

 

Please.

[Notional]

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

huh??  you tell me the evidence is there even though I posted a link to the companies website showing the exact opposite, then you go on a rant about anti consumer and leaked documents and censorship allegations and you use the word "believe" like I should have faith your emotions are right and the actual evidence is wrong.

 

Please.

It's no surprise to anyone reading this thread, that you don't believe this program is an issue at all. Why you are so hellbent on believing NVidia isn't up to no good is odd. By the many discussions we've had about NVidia's scummy practices over the years, you should know better by now. But don't worry, you will.

[LAwLz]

21 minutes ago, Notional said:

So it's NOT using Gigabytes gaming brand, like GPP dictates? Alright then.

You are generalizing.

I am saying it us not using Gigabyte's Auros brand, but that it is still branded as a gaming product. Not all of Gigabyte's gaming products have Auros branding on them. 

 

That's why I wrote this in my post too, which you seem to have ignored:

44 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

The product is literally called the "RX 580 Gaming Box". It is still being marketed as a gaming product, with a fancy box and slick product page.

 

It is branded like a gaming product, but it is not branded as being in the Auros line of products.

If your definition of "gaming branding" is = It has an Auros logo on it then you are correct. However, that also means that in your eyes, G1 or Windforce products from Gigabyte are lacking "gaming branding" as well, which I think is a very silly definition.

 

To me, all Auros branded products are gaming products, but not all gaming products are Auros branded.

 

Saying that Nvidia doesn't allow gaming branding on AMD products is very misleading, but that is what your post is implying.

What seems to be the case is that Nvidia does not allow manufacturers to use the same brand names on Nvidia products as they do on other products. Nvidia want an exclusive branding for their products. There is a not-so-obvious, but very important difference between the narrative I get from your posts, and what seems to be actually happening.

 

If these reports are true then Gigabyte has decided to use Auros branding for Nvidia products, but that does not mean AMD products can't be banded as gaming products.

All Auros products are gaming products, but not all gaming products are Auros products.

Very big difference.

 

 

Here is a motherboard called the Z170X-Ultra Gaming. It's from their G1 product lineup.

By your logic, that is not a gaming branded product. By my logic, it is gaming branded, but not an Auros branded products.

[mr moose]

Just now, Notional said:

It's no surprise to anyone reading this thread, that you don't believe this program is an issue at all. Why you are so hellbent on believing NVidia isn't up to no good is odd. By the many discussions we've had about NVidia's scummy practices over the years, you should know better by now. But don't worry, you will.

There you go using that word again "believe"  you can believe whatever you want.  But I only accept evidence.   Come back to me when you have that and I will accept it.

 

[Blademaster91]

16 minutes ago, mr moose said:

huh??  you tell me the evidence is there even though I posted a link to the companies website showing the exact opposite, then you go on a rant about anti consumer and leaked documents and censorship allegations and you use the word "believe" like I should have faith your emotions are right and the actual evidence is wrong.

 

Please.

Sadly people would rather get all torches & pitchforks over it when there isn't any substantiated evidence to these claims and the only evidence out there Nvidia is silencing anyone is accusations on the [H] forum. I'm not believing it until there is some actual evidence,even if true it might just be a simple branding change that doesn't affect the hardware you're buying.

47 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I guess it depends on what your definition of "gaming branding" is.

The product is literally called the "RX 580 Gaming Box". It is still being marketed as a gaming product, with a fancy box and slick product page.

 

It is branded like a gaming product, but it is not branded as being in the Auros line of products.

If your definition of "gaming branding" is = It has an Auros logo on it then you are correct. However, that also means that in your eyes, G1 or Windforce products from Gigabyte are lacking "gaming branding" as well, which I think is a very silly definition.

 

To me, all Auros branded products are gaming products, but not all gaming products are Auros branded.

Agreed,I wouldn't have a problem with this as long as it is just the brand on the box and card. Differentiating their product from AMD's isn't a bad thing when Nvidia has most of the market under the existing "gaming" names. I think Gigabyte could bring back the G1 Gaming brand for its AMD cards and most wouldn't be upset over it.

[hobobobo]

7 minutes ago, Notional said:

It's no surprise to anyone reading this thread, that you don't believe this program is an issue at all. Why you are so hellbent on believing NVidia isn't up to no good is odd. By the many discussions we've had about NVidia's scummy practices over the years, you should know better by now. But don't worry, you will.

You are playing a doomsayer here, mate

 

nV learns, they way it will be done now is AMD gonna be relegated to either generica "gaming" or inferior gaming line-ups, as armor probably. If sapphire made nV cards, they would be nitro while AMDs would be pulse

 

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Saying that Nvidia doesn't allow gaming branding on AMD products is very misleading, but that is what your post is implying.

What seems to be the case is that Nvidia does not allow manufacturers to use the same brand names on Nvidia products as they do on other products. Nvidia want an exclusive branding for their products. There is a not-so-obvious, but very important difference between the narrative I get from your posts, and what seems to be actually happening.

 

To be fair though, thats barely gaming branding, calling a product gaming box. Its like wallmart crisps (dunno what they call their branded), sure they are still branded but it can be argued it  might as well be plain packeging. nV are not dumb enough, it seems, to go outright guns blazing, but they are basically doing what the dude implies, albeit alot more subtle. Ofc we will know for sure in time, prolly when nextgen nV GPUs roll out (hence the timing of the programm), but to me it sure seems they are gobbling premium branding

[Notional]

2 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

You are generalizing. Read the rest of my post too:

 

Saying that Nvidia doesn't allow gaming branding on AMD products is very misleading, but that is what your post is implying.

What seems to be the case is that Nvidia does not allow manufacturers to use the same brand names on Nvidia products as they do on other products. Nvidia want an exclusive branding for their products. There is a not-so-obvious, but very important difference between the narrative I get from your posts, and what seems to be actually happening.

 

If these reports are true then Gigabyte has decided to use Auros branding for Nvidia products, but that does not mean AMD products can't be banded as gaming products.

All Auros products are gaming products, but not all gaming products are Auros products.

Very big difference.

Your entire post is a strawman. The original news clearly states that the GPP demands exclusive access to the vendors' gaming brands (rog/strix/auros/ec). Noone states that they cannot put "gaming" on their products.

 

Now, because NVidia refuses to be transparent about this scummy program, and has forced a gag order on all the vendors, we don't know the details on this program. Maybe the vendors can make a separate gaming brand? We don't know, but so far there is no evidence pointing in that direction.

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

There you go using that word again "believe"  you can believe whatever you want.  But I only accept evidence.   Come back to me when you have that and I will accept it.

 

Clearly, you don't.

[mr moose]

Just now, Blademaster91 said:

Sadly people would rather get all torches & pitchforks over it when the only evidence out there Nvidia is silencing anyone is accusations on the [H] forum. I'm not believing it until there is some actual evidence,even if true it might just be a simple branding change that doesn't affect the hardware you're buying.

Agreed,I wouldn't have a problem with this as long as it is just the brand on the box and card. Differentiating their product from AMD's isn't a bad thing when Nvidia has most of the market under the existing "gaming" names. I think Gigabyte could bring back the G1 Gaming brand for its AMD cards and most wouldn't be upset over it.

I won't have a problem accepting it if it turns out to be as bad as hardOCP made out.  I said right back at the start I will be the first to openly mock Nvidia for their utter stupidity, but I am not going to jump on the emotional bandwagon because of a few pictures and someones ranting.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Notional said:

Clearly, you don't.

You haven't posted any yet, I have posted links to Asus and Gigabyte both still selling "GAMING" branded AMD products (ROG strix and Aorus at that).    When you can show me they aren't doing that and AMD sales are unnaturally declining with no reason other than GPP then I will "believe" it.

[hobobobo]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You haven't posted any yet, I have posted links to Asus and Gigabyte both still selling "GAMING" branded AMD products (ROG strix and Aorus at that).    When you can show me they aren't doing that and AMD sales are unnaturally declining with no reason other than GPP then I will "believe" it.

To be fair, linking to existing rog or aourus branded amd cards is hardly evidence for the contrary, the fellas got stock and they have to clear it, nV is nowhere generous enough to pay for repackagimg of existing products

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, hobobobo said:

To be fair, linking to existing or aourus branded amd cards is hardly evidence for the contrary, the fellas got stock and they have to clear it, nV is nowhere generous enough to pay for repackagimg of existing products

Would it then be fair to say there is no evidence then?  I mean, I'm still fine with no evidence because all I am saying is no evidence = a belief based on emotion and not a reality.    When evidence surfaces to make a claim then I will accept that claim.

[hobobobo]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Would it then be fair to say there is no evidence then?  I mean, I'm still fine with no evidence because all I am saying is no evidence = a belief based on emotion and not a reality.    When evidence surfaces to make a claim then I will accept that claim.

Id say hardly any evidence, as of now. That AMD gaming box seems to indicate nVs intent, but its only 1 case so too early to say. Although i always trust corporations to be the worst they can be, so, in my opinion, albeit unsubstantiated for now, AMD gonna get plain packaging treatment

[LAwLz]

17 minutes ago, Notional said:

Your entire post is a strawman. The original news clearly states that the GPP demands exclusive access to the vendors' gaming brands (rog/strix/auros/ec). Noone states that they cannot put "gaming" on their products.

I am not making strawmans. However, what you are posting here seems to be incorrect.

There is a massive difference between "exclusive access to vendor's gaming brands", and "exclusive access to a gaming brand".

 

The first, which is what you are claiming, is that AMD products would not be allowed to have any gaming associated branding on them. This would prohibit using old or creating new branding for AMD products. 

What seems to be actually happening is that Nvidia want a branding exclusive to them.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Notional said:

Now, because NVidia refuses to be transparent about this scummy program, and has forced a gag order on all the vendors, we don't know the details on this program. Maybe the vendors can make a separate gaming brand? We don't know, but so far there is no evidence pointing in that direction.

So what you're doing is presenting your posts as a worst case scenario we have no evidence to support? Am I interpreting you correctly here?

What makes you think they can't create separate gaming brands for AMD products? They are clearly marketing the AMD 580 box as a gaming product, even going as far as to put gaming in big letters on the box. It doesn't make sense to assume that Nvidia are forcing manufacturers to not create new labels for other products.

 

 

There is a massive difference between:

Quote

Hey, we would like to have a special label on all our products.

and:

Quote

Hey, we would like you to stop putting gaming brands on our competitors' products.

 

You are assuming it is the latter, without any evidence for it. The only evidence posted so far, the gaming box, seems to point towards the former being true, not the latter. If the latter was true, why were Gigabyte allowed to put gaming in big letters on the box? That's clearly branded as a gaming product.

[laminutederire]

22 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

 

They seem to take the brand with the best image and the brand associated with high end products (ie the best coolers for both company's card before). From a stupid person standpoint that implies that Nvidia is one tier better than AMD no matter how well cards may perform. That should directly affect negatively sales for AMD and reinforce the unfair mind share bias towards Nvidia. From the way it is going, for AMD to get on top they'll have to have significantly better products for 10 years straight to get rid of the mindshare effects this implies.

What worries me the most would be that they subsequently stop putting decent coolers on amd cards because they brand those with the cheaper models with worse VRM-coolers etc.

That's a slippery slope and a huge precedent posed. That basically says to Nvidia: "we aib are your bitches, do whatever you want with us". 

We'll have to see if that generalizes when they won't have amd card stock anymore etc. (Because as @mr moose pointed out they still have rog and aurus branded cards available (which may only be because they have stock ofbvards like those to sell before they switch. It remains that it appears that their only new product since has a distinctive brand name change (even if when you look at it the packaging is exactly the same except for the name, which frankly doesn't make sense expect if they respect the gpp agreement) That's from gigabyte own site)

[Blademaster91]

8 minutes ago, hobobobo said:

Id say hardly any evidence, as of now. That AMD gaming box seems to indicate nVs intent, but its only 1 case so too early to say. Although i always trust corporations to be the worst they can be, so, in my opinion, albeit unsubstantiated for now, AMD gonna get plain packaging treatment

The RX580 box still says "gaming" on it,Asus and MSI have other gaming brands like "Dual" or "Armor" so its hardly a "plain package" or "white box" treatment if it were the case that Nvidia is really forcing GPP onto their AIB brand partners. Nvidia wanting to use ROG,Gaming X,or Aorus to help consumers identify those sub-brands as Nvidia cards wouldn't exactly be anti-consumer,IMO.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, laminutederire said:

They seem to take the brand with the best image and the brand associated with big end products (ie the best coolers for both company's card before). From a stupid person standpoint that implies that Nvidia is one tier better than AMD no matter how well cards may perform. That should directly affect negatively sales for AMD and reinforce the unfair mind share bias towards Nvidia. From the way it is going, for AMD to get on top they'll have to have significantly better products for 10 years straight to get rid of the mindshare effects this implies.

What worries me the most would be that they subsequently stop putting decent coolers on amd cards because they brand those with the cheaper models with worse VRM-coolers etc.

That's a slippery slope and a huge precedent posed. That basically says to Nvidia: "we aib are your bitches, do whatever you want with us". 

We'll have to see if that generalizes when they won't have amd card stock anymore etc. (Because as @mr moose pointed out they still have rog and aurus branded cards available (which may only be because they have stock ofbvards like those to sell before they switch. It remains that it appears that their only new product since has a distinctive brand name change (even if when you look at it the packaging is exactly the same except for the name, which frankly doesn't make sense expect if they respect the gpp agreement) That's from gigabyte own site)

Even the AMD gaming box from gigabyte has "GAMING" written on the side of the box, so we know nothing really.

 

https://www.gigabyte.com/Graphics-Card/GV-RX580IXEB-8GD#kf

[laminutederire]

Just now, mr moose said:

Even the AMD gaming box from gigabyte has "GAMING" written on the side of the box, so we know nothing really.

 

https://www.gigabyte.com/Graphics-Card/GV-RX580IXEB-8GD#kf

Well... do you agree that except the gigabyte/aorus name, everything is basically the same?

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, laminutederire said:

Well... do you agree that except the gigabyte/aorus name, everything is basically the same?

 

No, because this has really only come to light recently and is still fairly new, we have only one example of AMD not getting the Aorus branding and everything else seems to be the same.  There is not enough data to make a claim about changes in marketing material.  For that we need a lot more time and records.  

 

EDIT: when I say no I mean not really.  There just isn't enough evidence to go lynching on.

[hobobobo]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I am not making strawmans. However, what you are posting here seems to be incorrect.

There is a massive difference between "exclusive access to vendor's gaming brands", and "exclusive access to a gaming branding".

 

The first, which is what you are claiming, is that AMD products would not be allowed to have any gaming associated branding on them. This would prohibit using old or creating new branding for AMD products. 

What seems to be actually happening is that Nvidia want a branding exclusive to them.

To be fair, there are other implications as well. For example, if gigabyte wants to have tiered nV cards, as in best binned for AORUS and mediocre for G1, AMD is a bit boned. They either have to chash out MDF for the new branding or be stuck with AMD gaming card for whatever quality chip they provide, oldschool silicon lottery style

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, hobobobo said:

To be fair, there are other implications as well. For example, if gigabyte wants to have tiered nV cards, as in best binned for AORUS and mediocre for G1, AMD is a bit boned. They either have to chash out MDF for the new branding or be stuck with AMD gaming card for whatever quality chip they provide, oldschool silicon lottery style

Or just do what every other manufacturer does and create another label.  Intel did it with pentiums and celerons labeling some gold and some as silver.