The FCC just KILLED Net Neutrality

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

Well you have to show up to class correct? Why can you not use the campus PCs after or before class since you are on campus. Its far from impossible as you say. 

Not always, many lectures are online now.  And when you do show up for class that doesn't guarantee you have enough time in the lab to get all your work done.  Do you know any degree students who get all their work completed in class time/on campus? I don't, they all work late into the night on assessments and tasks.

 

 

As someone who has quite some experience with education, I can guarantee you it is hard enough for secondary students to get good grades without a home internet connection let alone a uni degree.  

 

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Hellion said:

Okay, so we've established that you prioritize convenience and laziness over standing up for yourself. 

 

You have no grounds to complain about the FCC ruling then. 

if you can't counter the points then don't bother posting, calling people lazy because you don't understand the gravity of the situation is not a well reasoned argument. 

 

They have every reason to complain about the NN ruling, people abilities to engage in modern life depend on having an neutral internet. 

[Hellion]

11 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Mny of the things I listed are not conveniences nor have anything to do with being lazy,  whether you like it or not, Internet is already considered an essential necessity.

 

even the German high court worked this out n 2013 and teh french government in 2009:

https://www.theverge.com/2013/1/25/3914498/german-judge-says-internet-is-essential-to-life

 

European rulings that have no effect on US soil mean nothing in this context.

 

For the record I'm not saying that the internet doesn't make life easier.

 

I'm m stating that boycotting a personal connection is very much a possibility with minor tweaks to how you access the internet.

 

You aren't going to drop dead without a connection on your phone or pc. 

[leadeater]

Just now, Hellion said:

European rulings that have no effect on US soil mean nothing in this context.

 

For the record I'm not saying that the internet doesn't make life easier.

 

I'm m stating that boycotting a personal connection is very much a possibility with minor tweaks to how you access the internet.

 

You aren't going to drop dead without a connection on your phone or pc. 

So how long are you suggesting this boycott is going to take and how many will have to participate to make it effective?

[Hellion]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No, but you are also missing the point and magnitude of the sacrifice you are suggesting.

 

We're not talking about no internet for a month, what if you have no access to internet for years through your formative education years. What if you are disabled and have difficulty with travel.

 

You can't use the past to justify now because in the past access to services wasn't primarily through internet access. Now days how do you know where your services are located, when they are open, what you are entitled to.

 

This is now, it is a now issue and you need to look at it with that in mind not with the past because in the past things were different.

I guess going to a library to use their connection while standing up for what is right is asking too much.

 

You would be one of the first to die in the event of a natural disaster since getting up off your ass from a personal computer is clearly too much to ask... 

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Hellion said:

European rulings that have no effect on US soil mean nothing in this context.

 

For the record I'm not saying that the internet doesn't make life easier.

 

I'm m stating that boycotting a personal connection is very much a possibility with minor tweaks to how you access the internet.

 

You aren't going to drop dead without a connection on your phone or pc. 

Again you have missed the point, there is no such thing as a personal connection in this context, there is only one connection, that is needed to get a job, finish school and yes, connect life saving alarms systems for those with medical conditions.  People will drop dead without internet in some cases.  

 

https://www.nbnco.com.au/learn-about-the-nbn/device-compatibility/medical-alarms.html

 

It doesn't matter whether you live in the US or in Europe, the services, education and job requirements are the same, therefore the premise and the principals are also the same.  Internet is essential,  and fast becoming less optional.

[mr moose]

Just now, Hellion said:

I guess going to a library to use their connection while standing up for what is right is asking too much.

 

You would be one of the first to die in the event of a natural disaster since getting up off your ass from a personal computer is clearly too much to ask... 

again, if you can't refute someones arguments with anything other than insults you should stop posting. 

 

A lot of good information that is both relevant and intrinsic to the issue has been presented. Dismissing it out of hand indicates you might not have enough experience to fully appreciate what it all means.

[Energycore]

A quick reminder that we should keep discussion civil. Insults (even heavily-worded ad-hominem attacks) are against our Community Standards.

 

Also cleaned up this page.

 

[Hellion]

9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

again, if you can't refute someones arguments with anything other than insults you should stop posting. 

 

A lot of good information that is both relevant and intrinsic to the issue has been presented. Dismissing it out of hand indicates you might not have enough experience to fully appreciate what it all means.

No it indicates that I'm willing to do what is necessary to stand up for what I believe is right and not get fucked in the ass by every corporation trying to pull a fast one.

 

For the record I have left a better paying job in the past for one that paid less because they didn't prioritize safety or government regulations which put me at risk in several ways. I have been in a legal battle that exhausted the majority of a years worth of my life but,  guess what? I made sacrifices along the way to achieve what I wanted rather then making excuses and whining on the internet expecting something to happen.

 

So I have plenty of experience fighting for what I believe in. Apparently amuricans think everything should be handed to them.

 

The bottom line is corporations don't care about consumers. They care about the bottom line. It's not that tough to put two and two together to figure out how to hurt them and force a change. 

[Lurick]

17 minutes ago, Hellion said:

I guess going to a library to use their connection while standing up for what is right is asking too much.

 

You would be one of the first to die in the event of a natural disaster since getting up off your ass from a personal computer is clearly too much to ask... 

So all those people who work out of their homes are what? People who should suffer because some greed corporation wants to profit a few more dollars or should go without work to join your "protest" and end up homeless?

Those who are unable to leave their homes and rely on the internet for outside communication should just sit in silence?

The hundreds of billions of dollars generated from internet transactions and the tens of thousands of jobs is just chump change that can be thrown down the drain and all those who would feel the devastating ripple effect should just suck it up to "protest"?

 

This isn't some frivolous play-thing that can be ignored that's just for the rich and well off.

[Hellion]

19 minutes ago, mr moose said:

again, if you can't refute someones arguments with anything other than insults you should stop posting. 

 

A lot of good information that is both relevant and intrinsic to the issue has been presented. Dismissing it out of hand indicates you might not have enough experience to fully appreciate what it all means.

I've refuted your argument plenty. You provided poor examples that I have countered many times. 

 

You've made your priorities clear because your not willing to give up convenience for principle. 

[GDRRiley]

2 minutes ago, Hellion said:

I've refuted your argument plenty. You provided poor examples that I have countered many times. 

 

You've made your priorities clear because your not willing to give up convenience for principle. 

Most people will never give up convenience for principles, for those that can when 1 ISP does bad change but for most they can't. 

[Hellion]

28 minutes ago, leadeater said:

So how long are you suggesting this boycott is going to take and how many will have to participate to make it effective?

If I knew that I would be a rich man.

 

How long do wars take? Some people fight legal battles for years.

 

Change doesn't have a set amount of time. 

[leadeater]

24 minutes ago, Hellion said:

You've made your priorities clear because your not willing to give up convenience for principle. 

Well in the career I'm in it's actually not possible to find and job or apply for one without internet, and sure I could go to a library but then some of the jobs require that I do some form of practical demonstration or task that is not possible on a public computer I do not have administrative control over.

 

Your stance is internet access is a convenience where in reality it is not for many. It's possible to go without but not for everyone. It's not going to be an effective protest if the section of public who cannot go without do not and the ones that can do.

 

This position directly impacts people for life, you're potentially asking people to for forgo the education and the effectiveness of it and not to enter their desired career path which also directly impacts their quality of life. You're asking people with disabilities to isolate themselves from society, one built around internet access. You're asking people to spend more money on transportation and the time required to get access to services and information others can do for much less money and time.

 

It's a nice point you are trying to make but if it didn't actually have such big life impacts then I would say it's a good idea. The issue is it does have significant impact on peoples lives and that is due to how society works now and how businesses operate. This is essentially the same as asking someone to do without a car then you wonder why they cannot hold a job or why they can only sleep 4 hours a day due to the travel time required on public transport to turn up on time, do the job, leave work and get food then get home.

[Hellion]

12 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well in the career I'm in it's actually not possible to find and job or apply for one without internet, and sure I could go to a library but then some of the jobs require that I do some form of practical demonstration or task that is not possible on a public computer I do not have administrative control over.

 

Your stance is internet access is a convenience where in reality it is not for many. It's possible to go without but not for everyone. It's not going to be an effective protest if the section of public who cannot go without do not and the ones that can do.

 

This position directly impacts people for life, you're potentially asking people to for forgo the education and the effectiveness of it and not to enter their desired career path which also directly impacts their quality of life. You're asking people with disabilities to isolate themselves from society, one built around internet access. You're asking people to spend more money on transportation and the time required to get access to services and information others can do for much less money and time.

 

It's a nice point you are trying to make but if it didn't actually have such big life impacts then I would say it's a good idea. The issue is it does have significant impact on peoples lives and that is due to how society works now and how businesses operate. This is essentially the same as asking someone to do without a car then you wonder why they cannot hold a job or why they can only sleep 4 hours a day due to the travel time required on public transport to turn up on time, do the job, leave work and get food then get home.

Why can't you demonstrate theoretical knowledge based tasks on a dummy system at the business that you are applying for work at? Are they not calling you to come in for a job interview anyway? I'm sure if they deem you a superior candidate they wouldn't mind doing so for a quality employee. 

 

The population that actually requires an internet connection for "health reasons" is a small sample size and a fraction of those that could go without internet. I'm not sure why this is being brought up when I never specifically singled out this demographic anyway. I cited laziness, not health conditions. Also, I'm pretty sure that there are protections in place that ensure this service isn't effected by lack of net neutrality. Moot point. 

 

Regarding education, change to in person classes and then use campus access. This has been mentioned several times.

 

How does internet relate to spending more for transportation? I'm not suggesting you not drive/call a cab/ wheel chair accessible vehicle or substitute public transport.

 

Again it boils down to priorities. If you choose to do nothing then that's exactly what's going to happen, nothing. 

[Guest]

Wow this thread shifted so fast

 

On a side note, I had forgotten about the analysis that I was going to do... Well I'll try to get it done some time soon(ish), but it will probably be kept short seeing as there are already a few good ones here and I would like to prioritize reviewing some material before the next semester begins. (That, and my interest in covering it has waned like an average person )

Edit: Ah, screw it. I'm too much of a lazy bum...

Edited December 29, 2017 by Guest
Laziness and disinterest have taken over

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, Hellion said:

Why can't you demonstrate theoretical knowledge based tasks on a dummy system at the business that you are applying for work at? Are they not calling you to come in for a job interview anyway? I'm sure if they deem you a superior candidate they wouldn't mind doing so for a quality employee. 

Because failure to do the task means you do not get an interview at all. You have any idea how many people apply for jobs now days? Literally thousands which is why there needs to be ways to identify good candidates beyond just looking at CVs.

 

11 minutes ago, Hellion said:

Regarding education, change to in person classes and then use campus access. This has been mentioned several times.

What if I you can't do this, without making a career choice change and to something you are less adept at. Simple to say, not actually simple. You can mention it all you like but it doesn't make it practical or possible. You are actually making people choose between either making a protest that might not work and will have a guaranteed impact on their life or to not do it and try and find an alternative. Not using internet is not the only choice, and the last I'd recommend.

 

11 minutes ago, Hellion said:

How does internet relate to spending more for transportation? I'm not suggesting you not drive/call a cab/ wheel chair accessible vehicle or substitute public transport

By having to travel to do something you could do at home, thought that was pretty obvious by your suggestion to go to a public library to get internet access. Also you know the saying, time is money. The more time you have to travel to get internet access to look for and apply for jobs or to complete your education the more disadvantaged you are to people that have internet access.

 

Then there is the other problem of business and government services that do not expect you to turn up in person for most things and don't have a kiosk for you to use. Most information and forms are online, even when you may have to hand them in or mail them access to the form might only be online. So then you have to leave and go to a public library and pay to print out the form.

 

You really need to fully think through all the consequences of giving up home internet access.

 

The population that requires internet access is FAR FAR greater than you think.

[Hellion]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Because failure to do the task means you do not get an interview at all. You have any idea how many people apply for jobs now days? Literally thousands which is why there needs to be ways to identify good candidates beyond just looking at CVs.

 

What if I you can't do this, without making a career choice change and to something you are less adept at. Simple to say, not actually simple. You can mention it all you like but it doesn't make it practical or possible. You are actually making people choose between either making a protest that might not work and will have a guaranteed impact on their life or to not do it and try and find an alternative. Not using internet is not the only choice, and the last I'd recommend.

 

By having to travel to do something you could do at home, thought that was pretty obvious by your suggestion to go to a public library to get internet access. Also you know the saying, time is money. The more time you have to travel to get internet access to look for and apply for jobs or to complete your education the more disadvantaged you are to people that have internet access.

 

Then there is the other problem of business and government services that do not expect you to turn up in person for most things and don't have a kiosk for you to use. Most information and forms are online, even when you may have to hand them in or mail them access to the form might only be online. So then you have to leave and go to a public library and pay to print out the form.

 

You really need to fully think through all the consequences of giving up home internet access.

 

The population that requires internet access is FAR FAR greater than you think.

I'm still seeing plenty of excuses to do nothing.

 

I'll quote what I've already stated:

Again it boils down to priorities. If you choose to do nothing then that's exactly what's going to happen, nothing. 

 

If you want something bad enough you can achieve it.

 

If you prioritize getting raped by ISP's then by all means continue to do nothing. It doesn't affect me.

 

Whining doesn't solve problems. 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Hellion said:

No it indicates that I'm willing to do what is necessary to stand up for what I believe is right and not get fucked in the ass by every corporation trying to pull a fast one.

 

For the record I have left a better paying job in the past for one that paid less because they didn't prioritize safety or government regulations which put me at risk in several ways. I have been in a legal battle that exhausted the majority of a years worth of my life but,  guess what? I made sacrifices along the way to achieve what I wanted rather then making excuses and whining on the internet expecting something to happen.

 

So I have plenty of experience fighting for what I believe in. Apparently amuricans think everything should be handed to them.

 

The bottom line is corporations don't care about consumers. They care about the bottom line. It's not that tough to put two and two together to figure out how to hurt them and force a change. 

Not a single line in that posts addresses the points raised.

 

1 hour ago, Hellion said:

I've refuted your argument plenty. You provided poor examples that I have countered many times. 

 

You've made your priorities clear because your not willing to give up convenience for principle. 

 

Again you are confusing what you think of as a convenience with what other people need as essential.   I'm not sure what world you live in where you can piss away your future by risking failing school or not applying for work in your prospective field, but where I and most people live these are not options.

 

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, Hellion said:

Whining doesn't solve problems. 

Neither does proposing impractical solutions that probably will not work. Personally I'm not whining, I do not live in the US but don't complain when people point out problems with an idea that won't work.

 

What I've pointed out are not excuses those are real life issues, an excuse means that what I have pointed are not actually issues and have little impact when they in fact do.

 

If you want to propose something then back it up by living it yourself, you don't even actually have to do it. For the next year of your life for everything you do stop and think how not having home internet access would effect you. Once you can figure out the full impact of such a suggestion then you can come back and say if you still think it is a good idea and address some of the issues raised rather than just call them excuses.

[Hellion]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Neither does proposing impractical solutions that probably will not work. Personally I'm not whining, I do not live in the US but don't complain when people point out problems with an idea that won't work.

 

What I've pointed out are not excuses those are real life issues, an excuse means that what I have pointed are not actually issues and have little impact when they in fact do.

 

If you want to propose something then back it up by living it yourself, you don't even actually have to do it. For the next year of your life for everything you do stop and think how not having home internet access would effect you. Once you can figure out the full impact of such a suggestion then you can come back and say if you still think it is a good idea and address some of the issues raised rather than just call them excuses.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sacrifice

 

a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else

 

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Hellion said:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sacrifice

And how is this a useful comment? Might want to explain it better because the issue is not sacrifice, it's the magnitude of it and the risk of it not working. What I'm saying is the sacrifice you are asking for is too great for the outcome and it is not the only choice.

 

Edit:

I'm also saying you do not understand the sacrifice you are asking for.

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 For the next year of your life for everything you do stop and think how not having home internet access would effect you.

 

Like:

-disconnecting your medical emergency call button.

-Not getting a job.

-failing school.

-not having access to an education due to being remote (which also highly increases your chances of not having a second ISP to choose)

-not having your security system monitored

-being unable to follow up a lost parcel because the courier only offers online services.

-having to buy overpriced consumer goods because online deals are no longer an option.

 

 

Just off the top of my head.

[Hellion]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

And how is this a useful comment? Might want to explain it better because the issue is not sacrifice, it's the magnitude of it and the risk of it not working. What I'm saying is the sacrifice you are asking for is too great for the outcome and it is not the only choice.

So why hasn't the approach of doing what equates to nothing solved the problem then? 

[Hellion]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Like:

-disconnecting your medical emergency call button.

-Not getting a job.

-failing school.

-not having access to an education due to being remote (which also highly increases your chances of not having a second ISP to choose)

-not having your security system monitored

-being unable to follow up a lost parcel because the courier only offers online services.

-having to buy overpriced consumer goods because online deals are no longer an option.

 

 

Just off the top of my head.

Already addressed all of this several times but continue to plug your ears and repeat until your face is red. 

 

That will work.