The FCC just KILLED Net Neutrality

[Theminecraftaddict555]

Here is a funny quote from fox news on net nuetrality:

Quote

"Market forces already protected consumers, because if an ISP started deliberately slowing down people’s favorite websites and streaming services, or putting an end to free speech, consumers would simply switch to a different ISP."

I wonder how late they are to this net neutrality argument

[asus killer]

11 hours ago, Hellion said:

You mean the same united nations that the US ignores on a regular basis?

 

Your example is a contradiction to what just took place. 

No. It's first not an example of nothing, it's a fact, in this case a decision of the UNHRC. Second it proves you are wrong, the UN represents almost all countries, so one or two that do not agree is irrelevant, including yourself

[asus killer]

7 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Not having electricity means no refrigeration and no electric based heat in the winter.

 

Not having internet means you can't apply for easy, cushy job across town, use your unnecessary ADT rippoff, and get porn on demand. With relative ease, one could get a job in construction, temporary labor, franchised restuarant like Taco Bell, Dominoes, Pizza Hut, McDonalds, Sonic, Freddy Steakburgers, Popeyes, KFC, and about a thousand mom and pop businesses that can't afford the paid eboards, and understand that not everyone has internet.

You'd be surprised about how many don't. I wasn't, but then again, I've never, and will never, view home internet access as anything more than a luxury, because that is exactly what it is.

 

That doesn't constitute a home internet connection as being even remotely necessary. Commercial internet access, yes.

you can as easily live without electricity as much as you can live without internet, in the history of mankind people have been doing both for almost all the time. 

In the US for as much of a contradiction as it turns out to be (being the country that invented it) internet is still not as widely used as in other countries. In my country the relationship between the citizen and the government is very much based on the internet. It amazes me that you guys still fill a paper to do the taxes for example.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, asus killer said:

you can as easily live without electricity as much as you can live without internet, in the history of mankind people have been doing both for almost all the time. 

In the US for as much of a contradiction as it turns out to be (being the country that invented it) internet is still not as widely used as in other countries. In my country the relationship between the citizen and the government is very much based on the internet. It amazes me that you guys still fill a paper to do the taxes for example.

I read that as the US being the country the invented electricity.  I was going to ask what they teach you over there in school.  Good thing I re-read it a couple of times.  That might have been a disastrous derailment.

[LAwLz]

7 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Not having electricity means no refrigeration and no electric based heat in the winter.

 

Not having internet means you can't apply for easy, cushy job across town, use your unnecessary ADT rippoff, and get porn on demand. With relative ease, one could get a job in construction, temporary labor, franchised restuarant like Taco Bell, Dominoes, Pizza Hut, McDonalds, Sonic, Freddy Steakburgers, Popeyes, KFC, and about a thousand mom and pop businesses that can't afford the paid eboards, and understand that not everyone has internet.

Having no Internet means not being able to get my apartment, not being able to do my job (so no money), not being able to do my taxes, and a wide variety of other things. In fact, several Swedish government agencies  as well as private companies have abandoned snail mail in favor of sending all mail online in a system called Kivra.

 

Having no electricity means I can't refrigerate the leftover pizza to save for tomorrow, I'd have to put on another shirt during winter, not having the luxury of taking a hot shower every day, having to go to bed when the sun goes down instead of wasting all night playing games.

 

Wow, it's almost as if electricity is a luxury too if you base your argument on "anything that's not one of the most basic needs for human survival is just a luxury, regardless of how it would affect you" and tries your hardest to make up a list of only stupid shit while disregarding all the major implications.

 

 

I can say for sure that without Internet, I would be almost as crippled as if I did not have electricity. One of the very few reasons why being without electricity is worse is because without electricity I'd be without Internet too. I could not even call in sick for work without Internet.

[leadeater]

14 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

In fact, several Swedish government agencies  as well as private companies have abandoned snail mail in favor of sending all mail online in a system called Kivra.

The lack of use of mail here has been such an issue that mail service delivery has been reduced to twice a week. There are a few things government agencies still send out via mail just to keep the mail service afloat, it's government/tax payers money anyway but if no one used it at all it would have to close.

 

There is a debate as to whether or not it should actually be closed and mail be handled by courier instead. If you remove all the things that go out by mail just to keep the service afloat the only things left would be things like once every 4 years voting enrollment packs get sent out and those can easily be handled by courier. Now days no business wants to send out mail and will give you discounts for asking not to be sent any or it's not sent by default and you have to ask for it, for a fee.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I can say for sure that without Internet, I would be almost as crippled as if I did not have electricity. One of the very few reasons why being without electricity is worse is because without electricity I'd be without Internet too. I could not even call in sick for work without Internet.

It's amusing, because I actually lived when there was no internet.  The world was obviously geared to work without it, but I have to say I much preferred it.  Everything was slower, you had time to digest information and mull it over, you weren't bombarded with 24/7 news and fakes news and scams (the worst was chain letters).  Encryption was not a debate and most importantly when you clocked off, you actually clocked off and work rarely followed you home.

 

But times change and if we don't change with them and adapt we will certainly find ourselves in a real mess.   My 3rd Job was selling internet. We sold dial up packages in blocks of Megabytes and by the megabyte.  That was back when half of LTT wasn't even born yet (1995-6).   I have watched the internet grow from dodgy low bit gifs to peered networks and through various cable and DSL technologies.  I have watched internet companies come and go first hand.  I have seen the difference the internet makes to everyday living, the difference it makes to banking, tax, job applications and education.  The difference it makes to social life, to self esteem, to having a place where even the weird are no longer the outcast.  The last thing we need are people with no understanding of the gravity of all this undermining it's importance and sending us backward.  It's absolutely  Ironic that the one thing the internet has given us all is the ability to fact check before making an ass of ourselves, butit's the one thing hardly anyone does.

 

And here endeth my pontification... 

 

 

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The lack of use of mail here has been such an issue that mail service delivery has been reduced to twice a week. There are a few things government agencies still send out via mail just to keep the mail service afloat, it's government/tax payers money anyway but if no one used it at all it would have to close.

 

There is a debate as to whether or not it should actually be closed and mail be handled by courier instead. If you remove all the things that go out by mail just to keep the service afloat the only things left would be things like once every 4 years voting enrollment packs get sent out and those can easily be handled by courier. Now days no business wants to send out mail and will give you discounts for asking not to be sent any or it's not sent by default and you have to ask for it, for a fee.

Voting enrollment can simply be distributed through the local council office.  When you turn 18 you get an email telling you were to go to get it,  or even sign up at the office itself and completely avoid the need for a courier. 

[leadeater]

Just now, mr moose said:

Voting enrollment can simply be distributed through the local council office.  When you turn 18 you get an email telling you were to go to get it,  or even sign up at the office itself and completely avoid the need for a courier. 

We're starting to trial online voting too, so that's realistically going to be another item off the mail list. Only few things left I can think of are jury service and car registration renewal notice, which you can already do online and get emailed but they still send physical mail notification. Really finding it hard to think of anything not junk mail I actually get.

[mr moose]

Just now, leadeater said:

We're starting to trial online voting too, so that's realistically going to be another item off the mail list. Only few things left I can think of are jury service and car registration renewal notice, which you can already do online and get emailed but they still send physical mail notification. Really finding it hard to think of anything not junk mail I actually get.

Online voting sounds like a really bad idea, in fact any electronic voting is a bad idea in my books.

[leadeater]

Just now, mr moose said:

Online voting sounds like a really bad idea, in fact any electronic voting is a bad idea in my books.

I'm mostly undecided on the matter, I know the problems that can happen and I know of solutions to most of them. So it's like yea I know it can be done properly and I know it can be a horrific mess too, but damn I'd like to not have to stand in line for ages to vote so... "fuck it what could possibly go wrong" lol.

 

It's only for local council elections so far, they aren't rushing in to it by any means.

[leadeater]

Oh and if things start turning out like The Circle it's time to nuke everything and start over, hell no that movie was messed up and the ending, argh the ending!!

[mr moose]

Just now, leadeater said:

Oh and if things start turning out like The Circle it's time to nuke everything and start over, hell no that movie was messed up and the ending, argh the ending!!

I don't know about the circle, but I did watch one of tom scott's videos on electronic voting.  Really well articulated. But I am sure there is more to it than that.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

It's amusing, because I actually lived when there was no internet. 

-snip-

It's pretty amazing how quickly society has adopted the Internet and made it such an integral part of our lives.

I grew up in the transition between no Internet and Internet.

It was only ~20 years ago my mom got mad* at my grandparents for buying "such an expensive and pointless thing as a computer" as a Christmas present, and ~15 years since we got broadband. It's only been about 15 years since it was seen as an expensive addition to a typewriter that could play some fun games, and now it's essential to almost everything I do on a regular basis.

 

*Not really mad, but she thought it was stupid.

[kokakolia]

14 hours ago, leadeater said:

 

 

There is a significant proportion that doesn't, manual labor jobs are prime candidates. However applying for some of them might require internet access.

 

I don't think you need internet access to hammer nails in or pour concrete but someone in the business does to organise it though.

Looks like you haven't worked a manual labor job ever! Every time you go to a new construction site, you have to complete an online safety orientation with a quizz. Otherwise, you can't set your foot on the site. 

 

I know that this doesn't apply to every manual labor job. Many smaller construction companies are despicable and pay their employees under the table, without any contract. Such companies wouldn't even bother with safety orientations. If you get hurt, it's not their fault. You're just an independent contractor who has nothing to do with them. 

 

Also, "hammering nails"!? That kinda makes me smile. That is only a small part of any construction project. There are so many different jobs in construction or "manual labor". 

[asus killer]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

We're starting to trial online voting too, so that's realistically going to be another item off the mail list. Only few things left I can think of are jury service and car registration renewal notice, which you can already do online and get emailed but they still send physical mail notification. Really finding it hard to think of anything not junk mail I actually get.

 

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

Online voting sounds like a really bad idea, in fact any electronic voting is a bad idea in my books.

 

one thing is electronic voting. That's already spread to a lot of countries and specific cases like my soccer club for example. Another completely different is online voting. The 1st can be manipulated but it all depends on the kind of control and audit they go trough. The 2nd is just asking for trouble, i don't know exactly the specifics in New Zealand but what prevents a abusive husband from voting for him and his wife? or someone voting for a elderly member of the family? etc... as there is no presence control.

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, kokakolia said:

Looks like you haven't worked a manual labor job ever! Every time you go to a new construction site, you have to complete an online safety orientation with a quizz. Otherwise, you can't set your foot on the site. 

The conversation was about home internet connections. And yes I have since I helped build my house but what ever it's not like that matters towards the actual conversation.

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, asus killer said:

one thing is electronic voting. That's already spread to a lot of countries and specific cases like my soccer club for example. Another completely different is online voting. The 1st can be manipulated but it all depends on the kind of control and audit they go trough. The 2nd is just asking for trouble, i don't know exactly the specifics in New Zealand but what prevents a abusive husband from voting for him and his wife? or someone voting for a elderly member of the family? etc... as there is no presence control.

No idea how the system works since I haven't used it yet. Currently nothing prevents voter coercion from an abusive husband either or manipulative family members towards the elderly, not something we generally think about so while online voting would make it easier it doesn't make it inherently possible than before.

 

Audit control of physical voting isn't as strong as most people would like to believe, what happens to the ballot boxes overnight in smaller towns before pickup? They go home with one of the officials unguarded, locked sure but can you be 100% sure it's tamper proof.

 

Every form of voting is going to have a down side and the risks are different for each. Online voting's risk can be low if done well but the impact is extremely high if there is an issue, electronic voting is a balance between risk and impact while paper voting is the highest risk but the lowest impact which is why it's still the preferred way to do it because in the event of an issue it's not likely to change the outcome of the election.

 

Also you wouldn't allow access to the online voting system from outside the country, business IP ranges or public cloud providers which isn't hard to do here in NZ since ISPs have to classify the type of connection and they use different IP ranges for home and business connections.

 

Still not saying I fully support online voting though but I can think of steps to make it safer, you would also still allow paper voting too.

[asus killer]

10 hours ago, leadeater said:

No idea how the system works since I haven't used it yet. Currently nothing prevents voter coercion from an abusive husband either or manipulative family members towards the elderly, not something we generally think about so while online voting would make it easier it doesn't make it inherently possible than before.

 

Audit control of physical voting isn't as strong as most people would like to believe, what happens to the ballot boxes overnight in smaller towns before pickup? They go home with one of the officials unguarded, locked sure but can you be 100% sure it's tamper proof.

 

Every form of voting is going to have a down side and the risks are different for each. Online voting's risk can be low if done well but the impact is extremely high if there is an issue, electronic voting is a balance between risk and impact while paper voting is the highest risk but the lowest impact which is why it's still the preferred way to do it because in the event of an issue it's not likely to change the outcome of the election.

 

Also you wouldn't allow access to the online voting system from outside the country, business IP ranges or public cloud providers which isn't hard to do here in NZ since ISPs have to classify the type of connection and they use different IP ranges for home and business connections.

 

Still not saying I fully support online voting though but I can think of steps to make it safer, you would also still allow paper voting too.

kind of offtopic, but the system controls itself. At least in my country no one can vote accompanied unless you specific can't do it yourself, so it's almost impossible to influence someone, when you vote you're alone. There's a member of local township that guards the ballot boxes sealed and hands it to the people that control the votes (no less than 3) in the morning, and they are local people assigned by the political parties so they have all the incentive not to cheat or let anyone cheat. In the end they all seal it. And members of the election campaign can watch the all process.

There is also a voter card and an ID card you must present while voting. By no means i think it's absolutely bullet proof but i think it's well designed. Transferring this process to a vote on the internet makes a well design process into a free for all, hacks, influences, lost passwords, etc...

And this is a paper exclusive process, no electronic votes, and we know the results in a few short hours.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, asus killer said:

kind of offtopic, but the system controls itself. At least in my country no one can vote accompanied unless you specific can't do it yourself, so it's almost impossible to influence someone, when you vote you're alone.

Yea it is off topic, but don't underestimate psychological trauma. You don't have to be with the person to coerce them in to voting the way you want, kind of a dark topic so I'll leave it there.

 

1 hour ago, asus killer said:

There's a member of local township that guards the ballot boxes sealed and hands it to the people that control the votes (no less than 3) in the morning, and they are local people assigned by the political parties so they have all the incentive not to cheat or let anyone cheat. In the end they all seal it. And members of the election campaign can watch the all process

Same here but that falls apart as towns get smaller and there are less officials to help out, the case I mentioned actually happened in our elections this year. You trust that those boxes are all handled correctly and not left alone or with a single person but that doesn't guarantee it is the case for every box every time which is why there are people advocating for at least electronic voting (not the only reason they want it).

 

Last I heard about a year ago NZ was actually considered the most open and transparent democracy so while it isn't a problem here even though it happened that doesn't negate that it is an issue with the system itself, and has been observed to be a problem in other countries like India.

 

1 hour ago, asus killer said:

Transferring this process to a vote on the internet makes a well design process into a free for all, hacks, influences, lost passwords, etc...

And this is a paper exclusive process, no electronic votes, and we know the results in a few short hours.

If this was such an issue and so easily done you wouldn't be doing internet banking either. You also wouldn't rely on passwords either for that matter.

 

Also a few short hours, nope actual confirmation of true final results can take weeks. Some of that is due to special votes from people outside the country but those actually have to be completed and mailed before the actual election date. The total cost of paper voting is very high and only gets worse as the population increases and gets less manageable.

 

There is no perfect voting system so without having direct experience with all of them and understanding how they work I can't say which is best, I won't write any off either just because of past issues with other systems too. The amount of technology that operates without issue is much greater than the ones that have had issues, you only hear about the bad stuff in the news so that will influence our thinking.

 

 

More on topic online voting won't be a thing for the US for a very long time, you have to be able to get online for one and I don't trust how the ISPs operate over there either. Nothing quite like 'technical issues' causing voter suppression.

[mr moose]

I'm sure most people have seen this, if not enjoy:

 

 

[leadeater]

12 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I'm sure most people have seen this, if not enjoy:

Also some of the machines in use or been used store votes on an SD card internally unencrypted clear text with no protections from alterations, think there was a video on it from defcon.

 

Edit:

https://www.defcon.org/images/defcon-25/DEF CON 25 voting village report.pdf

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hackers-break-into-voting-machines-defcon-las-vegas/

Quote

Synack, a San Francisco security platform, discovered serious flaws with the WinVote machine months ahead of this weekend's convention. The team simply plugged in a mouse and keyboard and bypassed the voting software by clicking "control-alt-delete."

 

[bomerr]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

I'm sure most people have seen this, if not enjoy:

 

 

FUD

[asus killer]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

If this was such an issue and so easily done you wouldn't be doing internet banking either. You also wouldn't rely on passwords either for that matter.

 

i'm probably gonna be pursued by an angry mob saying this on a tech forum, i use home banking but only when i absolutely can't avoid it. I use the ATM for almost everything, it works very well in my country and it does not have fees.

Now they added a lot of layers of security but in the beginning hb was really weak, and then there's phising and password security and virus and malware and keyloggers,... i guess i'm kind of paranoid with my money 

[mr moose]

8 hours ago, bomerr said:

FUD

That's his whloe point, there is no way to effectively implement it because of that.