120hz tv's?

[Lays]

I have a curiosity question, if films/movies/ tv shows are filmed at ~24 FPS, what does 120HZ benefit? Wouldn't the film/movie/tv show have to be filmed+displayed at 120fps to benefit from the 120hz?

[coen113]

I have a curiosity question, if films/movies/ tv shows are filmed at ~24 FPS, what does 120HZ benefit? Wouldn't the film/movie/tv show have to be filmed+displayed at 120fps to benefit from the 120hz?

it benefits selling. marketing terms.

[Bluejay0]

Not anything. The refresh rate won't make the difference if the frames aren't high enough :l

[simtransporter]

It won't be of any use whilst watching TV and movies, but I guess it's nice to have the potential just in case you want to plug it into a PC.

[RatedBlam]

I believe they use voodoo magic to make it more "fluent" like the new 240 eizo

[Cacao]

It's so console gamers can play 30fps 560p on their 240hz 4k TVs.

[coen113]

It's so console gamers can play 30fps 560p on their 240hz 4k TVs.

OMG PL0X Y U NO UNDERSTAND CONSOLE GAMING

[Glenwing]

It won't be of any use whilst watching TV and movies, but I guess it's nice to have the potential just in case you want to plug it into a PC.

A 120Z TV is just a standard 60FPS display with some image processing tricks to smooth things a little bit; they are not true 120Hz displays like gaming monitors. They are really bad for gaming because the image processing that goes on in the TVs causes massive input lag.

[Bluejay0]

A 120Z TV is just a standard 60FPS display with some image processing tricks to smooth things a little bit; they are not true 120Hz displays like gaming monitors. They are really bad for gaming because the image processing that goes on in the TVs causes massive input lag.

 

AND HE SHUTS THE SITUATION DOWN (not literally if not the thread would be gone)

[simtransporter]

A 120Z TV is just a standard 60FPS display with some image processing tricks to smooth things a little bit; they are not true 120Hz displays like gaming monitors. They are really bad for gaming because the image processing that goes on in the TVs causes massive input lag.

Yes, that is true with most LCD TVs. I was thinking of plasmas when I commented. I remember reading about some TVs that do accept a 120Hz signal.

[RatedBlam]

A 120Z TV is just a standard 60FPS display with some image processing tricks to smooth things a little bit; they are not true 120Hz displays like gaming monitors. They are really bad for gaming because the image processing that goes on in the TVs causes massive input lag.

This pretty OT and pretty late but I wonder what kind of voodoo magic do the "400hz and 900hz" require. The added amount of hertz is just so large it baffles me

[Glenwing]

This pretty OT and pretty late but I wonder what kind of voodoo magic do the "400hz and 900hz" require. The added amount of hertz is just so large it baffles me

 

The frequency ratings for LCDs and Plasma displays are measuring different processes that aren't related.

 

An LCD uses liquid crystals that bend light, and rotating the crystals can control how much light from the backlight passes through each pixel on the panel, and how much is blocked, and this creates variable brightness.  The grid of different colored pixels with variable brightness can be used to form images.  The position of the liquid crystals is controlled by a transistor.  A single pulse of voltage is sent to the transistor, causing it to conduct current, which moves the crystal.  The duration of the voltage controls the duration of the current, which controls how far the crystal moves.  For each frame the displays outputs, the crystals are aligned into position for that image, and then aligned to another position for the next frame, etc.  For each frame, 1 voltage cycle is used to move the crystal into its position.  So, at 60 frames per second, there would be 60 accompanying voltage cycles per second, and so we get 60Hz, which is the unit for cycles per second.

 

A Plasma TV does not use liquid crystals, it uses an array of chambers containing noble gases.  Hitting the chambers with voltage excites the gases, causing them to glow, and so controlling voltage pulses to different gas chambers can be used to create a picture.  However, the gas is either ignited or not.  It only has one brightness level, which is a problem.  So what we do to create variable brightness, is for each frame, we use many voltage pulses at high frequency, 600 pulses per second.  Each group of 10 cycles is used for 1 frame.  If a pixel needs to be at half brightness for that frame, then it is turned on for half of the cycles and turned off for the other half, which, overall, outputs only 50% the amount of light compared to if it were on for all 10 cycles during the frame.  At this high of a frequency, the individual on-off cycles of pixels are not visible to us, and it just appears as a dimmer constant light output from that pixel.  So, you can create variable brightness in each pixel by using several voltage pulses at high frequency, modern plasma TVs use 10 cycles for each frame.  So, a 60 FPS plasma TV would use 600Hz to achieve that framerate.

 

A seemingly high frequency like 600Hz is child's play for electronics; the reason LCDs don't cycle at those frequencies is because the liquid crystals take time to shift positions (several milliseconds; this is "response time"), and at high frequencies, they would not even be able to finish switching to each position before the next frame was supposed to be displayed.  The fastest switching designs are limited to around 120-144Hz at the most, the liquid crystals don't move fast enough to display more than that many images in a second.  Plasma TVs do not have this problem with response times and can be switched on and off at high frequency like 600Hz.  However, a plasma display cannot create a full image with only a single cycle, it uses several to do so.

[RatedBlam]

The frequency ratings for LCDs and Plasma displays are measuring different processes that aren't related.

 

An LCD uses liquid crystals that bend light, and rotating the crystals can control how much light from the backlight passes through each pixel on the panel, and how much is blocked, and this creates variable brightness.  The grid of different colored pixels with variable brightness can be used to form images.  The position of the liquid crystals is controlled by a transistor.  A single pulse of voltage is sent to the transistor, causing it to conduct current, which moves the crystal.  The duration of the voltage controls the duration of the current, which controls how far the crystal moves.  For each frame the displays outputs, the crystals are aligned into position for that image, and then aligned to another position for the next frame, etc.  For each frame, 1 voltage cycle is used to move the crystal into its position.  So, at 60 frames per second, there would be 60 accompanying voltage cycles per second, and so we get 60Hz, which is the unit for cycles per second.

 

A Plasma TV does not use liquid crystals, it uses an array of chambers containing noble gases.  Hitting the chambers with voltage excites the gases, causing them to glow, and so controlling voltage pulses to different gas chambers can be used to create a picture.  However, the gas is either ignited or not.  It only has one brightness level, which is a problem.  So what we do to create variable brightness, is for each frame, we use many voltage pulses at high frequency, 600 pulses per second.  Each group of 10 cycles is used for 1 frame.  If a pixel needs to be at half brightness for that frame, then it is turned on for half of the cycles and turned off for the other half, which, overall, outputs only 50% the amount of light compared to if it were on for all 10 cycles during the frame.  At this high of a frequency, the individual on-off cycles of pixels are not visible to us, and it just appears as a dimmer constant light output from that pixel.  So, you can create variable brightness in each pixel by using several voltage pulses at high frequency, modern plasma TVs use 10 cycles for each frame.  So, a 60 FPS plasma TV would use 600Hz to achieve that framerate.

 

A seemingly high frequency like 600Hz is child's play for electronics; the reason LCDs don't cycle at those frequencies is because the liquid crystals take time to shift positions (several milliseconds; this is "response time"), and at high frequencies, they would not even be able to finish switching to each position before the next frame was supposed to be displayed.  The fastest switching designs are limited to around 120-144Hz at the most, the liquid crystals don't move fast enough to display more than that many images in a second.  Plasma TVs do not have this problem with response times and can be switched on and off at high frequency like 600Hz.  However, a plasma display cannot create a full image with only a single cycle, it uses several to do so.

That does explain quite a lot. But I think I have seen some 900hz LED-TVs which I believe are not Plasma. Or are they? And looking at the TVs it seems to be the manufacturers weird way of sayng refresh rate on their own terms But thanks for the awesome reply

[Glenwing]

That does explain quite a lot. But I think I have seen some 900hz LED-TVs which I believe are not Plasma. Or are they? And looking at the TVs it seems to be the manufacturers weird way of sayng refresh rate on their own terms But thanks for the awesome reply

 

Pretty much all LCD TVs operate at an actual framerate of 60 FPS maximum received from the source, and use visual tricks like interpolation to try to calculate and approximate what an "inbetween" frame of two real frames from the source might look like, and smooth out fast motion a bit in this way, and claim it is now a 120Hz TV.  Of course, it looks nothing like a true 120Hz LCD monitor.  I do not know what a 900Hz LCD TV might be measuring, perhaps some kind of light-boost like backlight strobe or something... they are always coming up with more of these things.  I do know though that it is physically impossible for any current LCD technology to refresh at 900Hz.

[RatedBlam]

Pretty much all LCD TVs operate at an actual framerate of 60 FPS maximum received from the source, and use visual tricks like interpolation to try to calculate and approximate what an "inbetween" frame of two real frames from the source might look like, and smooth out fast motion a bit in this way, and claim it is now a 120Hz TV.  Of course, it looks nothing like a true 120Hz LCD monitor.  I do not know what a 900Hz LCD TV might be measuring, perhaps some kind of light-boost like backlight strobe or something... they are always coming up with more of these things.  I do know though that it is physically impossible for any current LCD technology to refresh at 900Hz.

Yeah, looking at the different manufacturers websites they say that it their way of defining refresh rate and it includes all these tricks.

And btw isn't PAL 50Hz ?

[Glenwing]

Yeah, looking at the different manufacturers websites they say that it their way of defining refresh rate and it includes all these tricks.

And btw isn't PAL 50Hz ?

 

I think so, but I'm not very familiar with PAL.

[RatedBlam]

I think so, but I'm not very familiar with PAL.

I remember it being since it's relevant here but thanks for the extremely informative replys

[Glenwing]

I remember it being since it's relevant here but thanks for the extremely informative replys

 

My pleasure ^.^

[dalekphalm]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu**

 

I had a huge detailed post typed up about 120 Hz and the benefits of 24p playback on it, but I accidentally hit the back button and lost it all... Btw, it says "auto-saved" when typing. Anyone know how to recover an auto-save?

 

Anyway. Long story short, lookup 3:2 pulldown.

 

True 120 Hz panels can play back 24p content without having to use 3:2 pulldown (Which basically adds in an extra frame of info that has been "extrapolated" from existing frames). It's just better.

 

24 is divisible by 120 with a result being a whole number (24 / 120 = 5, whereas 24 / 60 = 0.4). This means you can simply double, (or in this case, quintuple) frames of content to achieve a higher frame rate.

[The Syndicate]

I think Linus made a video once and said that TV's wont always have that exact refresh rate.

Or maybe it was someoen else.

[eshbop]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu**

 

I had a huge detailed post typed up about 120 Hz and the benefits of 24p playback on it, but I accidentally hit the back button and lost it all... Btw, it says "auto-saved" when typing. Anyone know how to recover an auto-save?

 

Anyway. Long story short, lookup 3:2 pulldown.

 

True 120 Hz panels can play back 24p content without having to use 3:2 pulldown (Which basically adds in an extra frame of info that has been "extrapolated" from existing frames). It's just better.

 

24 is divisible by 120 with a result being a whole number (24 / 120 = 5, whereas 24 / 60 = 0.4). This means you can simply double, (or in this case, quintuple) frames of content to achieve a higher frame rate.

So 24FPS on a 60Hz displays means a frame remains on the screen for an odd/inconsistent number of refresh cycles, resulting in stutter?

[TheProfosist]

You benefit because they no longer have to put in refresh rate changing into the monitor to support switching to 24hrz because 24 is a multiple of 120. It os also a multiple of 30 and 60 so pertaining you like in a NTSC based country youll never have to change your refresh rate for you to not have visual issues like shuttering.

[TheProfosist]

A 120Z TV is just a standard 60FPS display with some image processing tricks to smooth things a little bit; they are not true 120Hz displays like gaming monitors. They are really bad for gaming because the image processing that goes on in the TVs causes massive input lag.

There are true 120hz tvs but they are usually marketed at 240hz smooth motion or something like that.

[dalekphalm]

So 24FPS on a 60Hz displays means a frame remains on the screen for an odd/inconsistent number of refresh cycles, resulting in stutter?

Yes, essentially. The 3:2 pulldown method that 60Hz displays use re-uses a frame twice or creates a "fake" frame in between real ones. It can result in stuttery or jittery motion playback. It can also reduce the visual quality in some cases/with some people.

[TheProfosist]

So 24FPS on a 60Hz displays means a frame remains on the screen for an odd/inconsistent number of refresh cycles, resulting in stutter?

Yep