Converting win32 and .net into UWP

[AlTech]

17 minutes ago, deviant88 said:

so Tim Sweeny was right, well we all know MS sucks and that they are trying to do, nothing good for the user thats for sure

No. There is nothing here which suggests that.

 

They are allowing people to migrate .NET apps to UWP if they want them in the Windows Store.

[TetraSky]

And here I am, with Edge loading up within a second and can start typing immediately without issues...

Open the weather app within 3 seconds, I also include the time it takes for me to click on the start menu and then click on the weather app, it open/load nearly instantly for me.

Would be a lot faster if we could just get Widget back or something, but instead we have Tiles on the start menu, which do also refresh instantly the moment you click on Start, so I don't even need to open the app itself to see the temperature outside at the moment, just click Start and there, less than a second.

The netflix app opens within 2 seconds, which is certainly a lot faster than if I were to open my browser and then manually go to netflix.

 

Quite frankly, the extra second I may need to wait for an app to load up is worth it considering what UWP brings over Win32. And over time, with optimization and better hardware that second may very well be phased out entirely.

[FakezZ]

7 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

The younger generation have been raised to be impatient and annoying people.

Well then it seems like the older generation was raised to generalize like there's no tomorrow? Besides, why would anyone want to use something that is slower when they don't have to? Yeah UWP offers some things Win32 does not out of the box, but I don't think they are too hard to implement if the developer gives 2 shits about it. And anything that gives even more control to Microsoft is a bad thing.

[AlTech]

Just now, FakezZ said:

Well then it seems like the older generation was raised to generalize like there's no tomorrow? Besides, why would anyone want to use something that is slower when they don't have to? Yeah UWP offers some things Win32 does not out of the box, but I don't think they are too hard to implement if the developer gives 2 shits about it. And anything that gives even more control to Microsoft is a bad thing.

If, in a hypothetical world, an app load time was 5 seconds instead 3............... It still wouldn't be that important. 3 Seconds instead of 5 is just whining and bitching.

[patrickjp93]

10 hours ago, LoE Ferret said:

If 4 seconds is too slow for some people I shudder to think how you survived before solid state drives when booting up a PC.

 

Do you guys have strokes waiting to cross a road? Do you get triggered by queues at a restaurant?

 

 

Actually the optimal loading time for an app to respond to a user should be no more than 4/10 of a second. From the time you click/tap an icon to when you've moved your finger/cursor to the area you know will pop up and react, no more than 4/10 of a second will have passed for conditioned users.

[FakezZ]

5 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

If, in a hypothetical world, an app load time was 5 seconds instead 3............... It still wouldn't be that important. 3 Seconds instead of 5 is just whining and bitching.

Really? So 66% more time to load is bitching? I think you need a reality check.

[nobelharvards]

43 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

If, in a hypothetical world, an app load time was 5 seconds instead 3............... It still wouldn't be that important. 3 Seconds instead of 5 is just whining and bitching.

 

34 minutes ago, FakezZ said:

Really? So 66% more time to load is bitching? I think you need a reality check.

 

Quote

The basic advice regarding response times has been about the same for thirty years [Miller 1968; Card et al. 1991]:

• 0.1 second is about the limit for having the user feel that the system is reacting instantaneously, meaning that no special feedback is necessary except to display the result.
• 1.0 second is about the limit for the user's flow of thought to stay uninterrupted, even though the user will notice the delay. Normally, no special feedback is necessary during delays of more than 0.1 but less than 1.0 second, but the user does lose the feeling of operating directly on the data.
• 10 seconds is about the limit for keeping the user's attention focused on the dialogue. For longer delays, users will want to perform other tasks while waiting for the computer to finish, so they should be given feedback indicating when the computer expects to be done. Feedback during the delay is especially important if the response time is likely to be highly variable, since users will then not know what to expect.

 

Source: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/response-times-3-important-limits/

 

More importantly, in the first sentence in the paragraph after that...

 

Quote

... response times should be as fast as possible ...

 

I.e. just like I said in my earlier post, if there is an improvement to be made that can be reasonably made without significant compromises in other aspects, then it SHOULD be done.

 

People who disagree are the same idiots who think they cannot feel the input latency difference (or think it is insignificant) between Overwatch and CS:GO, or the difference between LAN, 30 and 80 ping.

 

Spoiler

For those who do not know, there was a video awhile ago (can't find it) comparing input latency. Overwatch was around 41-45ms. CS:GO was around 32. The difference is very noticeable in-game.

 

It is much easier to dodge in accordance with how the enemy player character is behaving with lower ping. Reading and predicting opponent track aiming (e.g. lightning gun in Quake) becomes a LOT easier the closer you get to instantaneous response. There is a noticeable difference in success rate between reading and dodging lightning gun fire even on 30 ping, compared to LAN.

 

With non LAN pings, there is a larger element of "guessing" where your opponent will try to aim as well as trying to "read" them. With LAN pings, that "guessing" aspect of dodging becomes much smaller, and it is possible to "read" opponent aiming in a lot more depth than is possible outside of LAN.

 

I am not expecting most people to understand this because most people's idea of "dodging" is frantically mashing A and D, and hoping nothing hits you whilst paying zero attention to where the opponent is firing or will be firing.

 

Nobody cares how "developer friendly" something is if the end product ends up "feeling" worse than the previous version to the end user.

Without end users, there are no developers.

 

I am not completely shitting on UWP, I just think there is a long way to go before it can be truly considered the successor to win32.

[Shakaza]

2 minutes ago, nobelharvards said:

Source: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/response-times-3-important-limits/

 

More importantly, in the first sentence in the paragraph after that...

 

 

I.e. just like I said in my earlier post, if there is an improvement to be made that can be reasonably made without significant compromises in other aspects, then it SHOULD be done.

Oh, good, someone who actually understands user experience.

[jagdtigger]

UWP has too many restrictions compared to win32. It will fail just like in case of WP...

[AlTech]

51 minutes ago, nobelharvards said:

 

 

 

Source: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/response-times-3-important-limits/

 

More importantly, in the first sentence in the paragraph after that...

 

 

I.e. just like I said in my earlier post, if there is an improvement to be made that can be reasonably made without significant compromises in other aspects, then it SHOULD be done.

 

People who disagree are the same idiots who think they cannot feel the input latency difference (or think it is insignificant) between Overwatch and CS:GO, or the difference between LAN, 30 and 80 ping.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

For those who do not know, there was a video awhile ago (can't find it) comparing input latency. Overwatch was around 41-45ms. CS:GO was around 32. The difference is very noticeable in-game.

 

It is much easier to dodge in accordance with how the enemy player character is behaving with lower ping. Reading and predicting opponent track aiming (e.g. lightning gun in Quake) becomes a LOT easier the closer you get to instantaneous response. There is a noticeable difference in success rate between reading and dodging lightning gun fire even on 30 ping, compared to LAN.

 

With non LAN pings, there is a larger element of "guessing" where your opponent will try to aim as well as trying to "read" them. With LAN pings, that "guessing" aspect of dodging becomes much smaller, and it is possible to "read" opponent aiming in a lot more depth than is possible outside of LAN.

 

I am not expecting most people to understand this because most people's idea of "dodging" is frantically mashing A and D, and hoping nothing hits you whilst paying zero attention to where the opponent is firing or will be firing.

 

Nobody cares how "developer friendly" something is if the end product ends up "feeling" worse than the previous version to the end user.

Without end users, there are no developers.

 

I am not completely shitting on UWP, I just think there is a long way to go before it can be truly considered the successor to win32.

It's a mixed bag. Some implementations are quick and snappy (these tend to be apps which have local content) and some are a bit slower (these tend to be apps which retrieve online content).

 

Does that mean that UWP is bad? No. it just means people need to be less reliant on using online parts of applications and instead try using local content if possible.

 

I have a UWP app in the store and the only thing causing it to not load instantly is the loading of media content from online services.

[GoodBytes]

22 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

UWP has too many restrictions compared to win32. It will fail just like in case of WP...

You do know that UWP has no aim to replace Win32. It is just a more appropriate app over Win32.

And UWP apps are growing, as the user base of Windows 10 checks out the Store more and more, and now that the XBox One can run UWP app as well, only boost the market.

[AlTech]

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

You do know that UWP has no aim to replace Win32. It is just a more appropriate app over Win32.

And UWP apps are growing, as the user base of Windows 10 checks out the Store more and more, and now that the XBox One can run UWP app as well, only boost the market.

Win32 will still exist for the most high performance programs like CAD software or whatever but for almost everything else it should replace it.

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

The name itself gives me headaches

[AlTech]

1 minute ago, Pohernori said:

The name itself gives me headaches

It's an acronym because they figured most people would be too lazy to say "Universal Windows Platform" every single time.

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

8 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

It's an acronym because they figured most people would be too lazy to say "Universal Windows Platform" every single time.

 

Naw i'm just pissed to be developing an uwp app for IOT core

[jagdtigger]

9 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

You do know that UWP has no aim to replace Win32. It is just a more appropriate app over Win32.

And UWP apps are growing, as the user base of Windows 10 checks out the Store more and more, and now that the XBox One can run UWP app as well, only boost the market.

If you want to think that i wont stop you... But its just adds an unneeded extra layer between the program and the HW... The whole idea of this universal BS is just plain dumbness(MS was warned when they started this whole farce with 8, but they conveniently ignored it). You cant write an OS/Program that can fit on any device because each device has its special needs. UWP was designed for phones so its useless on PC's(see the spectacular fail with UWP games for instance).

[dalekphalm]

10 hours ago, nobelharvards said:

This "hurr durr, what is wrong with a few seconds" talk is absolute bullshit and holds back society in general.

 

Look at the NBN project in Australia. Its a disaster. And the important part is, nobody is educated enough to care. People are happy with their 1mbps 30 gig per month plan.

 

This backwards thinking is extremely detrimental to progress in a lot of fields.

 

To take it to the extreme, would you prefer going back to 56 kbit/s modems or internet being interrupted every time someone answered a phone call?

 

If there is any reasonable improvement that can be made in ANY area, whether that be latency or loading times, without significantly compromising in other areas, then it SHOULD be made.

 

Right now the UX in even basic UWP applications like the calculator, Edge or the mail client just feels unfinished, much like Windows 10 in general.

In the end, UX is what matters most. The mass crowd won't listen to all the amazing technical details, if the end product is worse than the product it is supposed to be succeeding.

 

Those who grew up with parents who were contract carpenters or other similar work will know the feeling of constantly moving house, and more to the point, the feeling of living in a house that is constantly being worked on. Sawdust on all your clothes. Sawdust in your favourite bread spread because someone forgot to put the lid back on. Sawdust everywhere. Yuck.

I take it your carpenter parents didn't practice safe and healthy workplace techniques:

http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-dust-safety/

 

Sawdust is REALLY REALLY bad for you. And not even the stuff you can see - the stuff that's invisible and gets into the air. Like seriously, getting it on your clothes and in your bread spread? Yikes. If you actually grew up like that, I'd suggest you go to a doctor and get your lungs examined - you could have suffered irreversible lung damage that you don't even know about.

[LoE Ferret]

I think some of the comments here made my head hurt.

 

Lets begin...

 

The NBN is a disaster, absolutely. Why? It was not due to uneducated people, it was due to a number of things.

 

-Politicians on both sides of the fence always opposing what the other side is pushing

-A rollout plan that was beyond stupid where the most people to benefit were put last on the list and instead places with sparse population got it first.
To provide an example, my parents live in a rural town surrounded by a number of small villages. 90% of the businesses are in the town, 95% of people live in the town. Guess who got NBN first? The villages. Guess is barely on the 3 year plan? The town. Morons.

-Despite rolling out to a sparse area the performance was patchy at best and took media attention to improve

-The rollout plan was built around supplying the fibre line to freestanding homes. NBN Co. had no strategy on how to deploy the system to apartments like what you see in our major cities. The NBN had to play this by ear. The result was a disaster again. Have a split level apartment? Good luck trying to get a cable through.

- Most of the tradies assigned to the rollout are not trained to deal with the cabling and as a result, the work is shoddy. Typical Australian quality.

For my apartment, it took 5 consultations with 4 different teams to finally get the cable laid. That was time off work to wait around for them to come take pictures, scratch their head and walk off. The guys who finally did do the work were great, but even they say the teams assigned are mostly garbage. 

They ended having to make notes on how they did my place so they could use it as a guide for other residences. 

- The fibre rollout and subsequent darkening of the copper network was poorly handled for devices that worked on the old copper network. Alarm systems, monitoring equipment etc all were left in the dark. NBN Co response "We had not thought of that" followed by " We will work it out later" public service speak for "not my problem" (I know I worked in federal and state level government).

- From the start there was the internet filter hanging over the head of this project. Conroy destroyed practically any goodwill and belief in the project from the onset with this. How quickly people forget comments like

The regulation of telecommunications powers in Australia is exclusively federal. That means I am in charge of spectrum auctions, and if I say to everyone in this room 'if you want to bid in our spectrum auction you'd better wear red underpants on your head', I've got some news for you. You'll be wearing them on your head ... I have unfettered legal power

 

- The people in charge are idiots, take the ABS Census as example and scale up and you have a near perfect overlay of what level of dumb we are dealing with. The deal with Telstra was beyond stupid, The wholesale charge rates were basically a way to give everything over to Telstra. Look at how much they tried to take control of the PPC-1 from TPG.

- Your major ISP are selling you the same old garbage with a new layer of paint. Look at the deals you are being offered. The US are up in arms about their plans, they would die of heart attacks in they saw ours.

 

So backwards thinking was not the problem, an overly expensive, white elephant project that had basically not proper planning, governance or control is the reason why the NBN is garbage. If it was properly planned out and smartly rolled out, it would have been great. Phased rollout, possibly FFTB for rural and FTTN for urban with a return to rural to complete the loop would of been great. Labor rushed it to try and show off, end result is a mess.

 

Now NBN is off my chest, lets move on to UWP and it apparent timing issues (I use apparent as I have not tried on my PC so... yeah)

 

Yeah @patrickjp93 I would agree with that being optimal and since UWP is not meeting that for applications, it should be looked into. The issue I have with this conversation is it seems that people are losing their minds over the fact that UWP has some issues and need fixing. If your response is "OMG it tooks 4 seconds to load, this is garbage". Be realistic and explain why. When someone looses a train of thought after 4 seconds, you have either you have ADHD or did not actually care about the subject and in which case you are just raging because it is the trendy thing to do. Using an extreme example of the 56kbps modem reference is a lovely strawman. Have fun feeling victory over yourself.

You could say the same about my reference to queues, I can take that one happily on the chin. But I do note that I know many people who rage at having to wait for ANYTHING. My ex was one of them. Train was 1 minute late "OMG why day is ruined". Line for a ticket "OMG we are going to be late", the list goes on. You should measure on what is "reasonable". If you only answer is "as fast as possible" then you have no concept of reasonable. 

 

Response time should be as fast possible, absolutely. But what is the reason for the response issue; connection, specs of device used, poor programming, crappy underlying API. That is what is important. Personally I think UWP has some major flaws, trying to shoehorn a mobile focused device on any device is just asking for trouble. At my workplace we are having a similar issue where a public facing presentation is now being talked about used internally for others things that far exceed what it can do. My previous work did this as well (remember government jobs, I have seen some of the worst decisions of this nature).

 

Considering I walked past people who camped overnight and wasted a day of their lives for a stupid phone, people being upset about 4 seconds does not wash with me. 

 

/Rant

 

 

 

 

[AlTech]

11 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

If you want to think that i wont stop you... But its just adds an unneeded extra layer between the program and the HW... The whole idea of this universal BS is just plain dumbness(MS was warned when they started this whole farce with 8, but they conveniently ignored it). You cant write an OS/Program that can fit on any device because each device has its special needs. UWP was designed for phones so its useless on PC's(see the spectacular fail with UWP games for instance).

You don't know what you're talking about and thus I cannot help you.

UWP was designed to have a common platform between PCs, Tablets, Phones, Xbox One , IoT Core, Surface Hub and HoloLens.

 

UWP also has exclusive functions/features for each platform. PCs have some UWP APIs that Mobile doesn't and vice versa.

[AlTech]

6 minutes ago, LoE Ferret said:

I think some of the comments here made my head hurt.

 

Lets begin...

 

The NBN is a disaster, absolutely. Why? It was not due to uneducated people, it was due to a number of things.

 

-Politicians on both sides of the fence always opposing what the other side is pushing

-A rollout plan that was beyond stupid where the most people to benefit were put last on the list and instead places with sparse population got it first.
To provide an example, my parents live in a rural town surrounded by a number of small villages. 90% of the businesses are in the town, 95% of people live in the town. Guess who got NBN first? The villages. Guess is barely on the 3 year plan? The town. Morons.

-Despite rolling out to a sparse area the performance was patchy at best and took media attention to improve

-The rollout plan was built around supplying the fibre line to freestanding homes. NBN Co. had no strategy on how to deploy the system to apartments like what you see in our major cities. The NBN had to play this by ear. The result was a disaster again. Have a split level apartment? Good luck trying to get a cable through.

- Most of the tradies assigned to the rollout are not trained to deal with the cabling and as a result, the work is shoddy. Typical Australian quality.

For my apartment, it took 5 consultations with 4 different teams to finally get the cable laid. That was time off work to wait around for them to come take pictures, scratch their head and walk off. The guys who finally did do the work were great, but even they say the teams assigned are mostly garbage. 

They ended having to make notes on how they did my place so they could use it as a guide for other residences. 

- The fibre rollout and subsequent darkening of the copper network was poorly handled for devices that worked on the old copper network. Alarm systems, monitoring equipment etc all were left in the dark. NBN Co response "We had not thought of that" followed by " We will work it out later" public service speak for "not my problem" (I know I worked in federal and state level government).

- From the start there was the internet filter hanging over the head of this project. Conroy destroyed practically any goodwill and belief in the project from the onset with this. How quickly people forget comments like

The regulation of telecommunications powers in Australia is exclusively federal. That means I am in charge of spectrum auctions, and if I say to everyone in this room 'if you want to bid in our spectrum auction you'd better wear red underpants on your head', I've got some news for you. You'll be wearing them on your head ... I have unfettered legal power

 

- The people in charge are idiots, take the ABS Census as example and scale up and you have a near perfect overlay of what level of dumb we are dealing with. The deal with Telstra was beyond stupid, The wholesale charge rates were basically a way to give everything over to Telstra. Look at how much they tried to take control of the PPC-1 from TPG.

- Your major ISP are selling you the same old garbage with a new layer of paint. Look at the deals you are being offered. The US are up in arms about their plans, they would die of heart attacks in they saw ours.

 

So backwards thinking was not the problem, an overly expensive, white elephant project that had basically not proper planning, governance or control is the reason why the NBN is garbage. If it was properly planned out and smartly rolled out, it would have been great. Phased rollout, possibly FFTB for rural and FTTN for urban with a return to rural to complete the loop would of been great. Labor rushed it to try and show off, end result is a mess.

 

Now NBN is off my chest, lets move on to UWP and it apparent timing issues (I use apparent as I have not tried on my PC so... yeah)

 

Yeah @patrickjp93 I would agree with that being optimal and since UWP is not meeting that for applications, it should be looked into. The issue I have with this conversation is it seems that people are losing their minds over the fact that UWP has some issues and need fixing. If your response is "OMG it tooks 4 seconds to load, this is garbage". Be realistic and explain why. When someone looses a train of thought after 4 seconds, you have either you have ADHD or did not actually care about the subject and in which case you are just raging because it is the trendy thing to do. Using an extreme example of the 56kbps modem reference is a lovely strawman. Have fun feeling victory over yourself.

You could say the same about my reference to queues, I can take that one happily on the chin. But I do note that I know many people who rage at having to wait for ANYTHING. My ex was one of them. Train was 1 minute late "OMG why day is ruined". Line for a ticket "OMG we are going to be late", the list goes on. You should measure on what is "reasonable". If you only answer is "as fast as possible" then you have no concept of reasonable. 

 

Response time should be as fast possible, absolutely. But what is the reason for the response issue; connection, specs of device used, poor programming, crappy underlying API. That is what is important. Personally I think UWP has some major flaws, trying to shoehorn a mobile focused device on any device is just asking for trouble. At my workplace we are having a similar issue where a public facing presentation is now being talked about used internally for others things that far exceed what it can do. My previous work did this as well (remember government jobs, I have seen some of the worst decisions of this nature).

 

Considering I walked past people who camped overnight and wasted a day of their lives for a stupid phone, people being upset about 4 seconds does not wash with me. 

 

/Rant

 

 

 

 

Why does everybody think UWP has a Mobile focus? It doesn't!

 

Having a consistent layout for an application on different platforms doesn't mean it has a mobile focused.

 

This is some of the most stupid things I've ever heard.

[AlTech]

This is what I'm talking about.

 

[vorticalbox]

19 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

This is what I'm talking about.

 

shh people might learn.

 

the UWP seems like a good idea. You make one app and it runs across all your devices. What it actually is is a way for Microsoft to lock in their ecosystem into a single store. Their store. I can see them phasing out win32 all together at some point.

 

and its then ill switch back to Linux. Windows is convenient for things like multiple users accessing a second drive. On ubuntu at least of a drive is mounted to a logged in user another cannot access it without the first unmounting before locking.

 

super annoying but ill take the issues to get away from Microsoft if needed.

[nobelharvards]

1 hour ago, LoE Ferret said:

You could say the same about my reference to queues, I can take that one happily on the chin. But I do note that I know many people who rage at having to wait for ANYTHING. My ex was one of them. Train was 1 minute late "OMG why day is ruined". Line for a ticket "OMG we are going to be late", the list goes on. You should measure on what is "reasonable". If you only answer is "as fast as possible" then you have no concept of reasonable. 

More like your standards are absolute shit.

 

In Japan, any train delay over 5 minutes incurs an apology from the conductor and a "delay certificate" for passengers on their way to work. When trains are delayed for an hour or more, it may even make the news.

 

THAT is the meaning of punctuality.

 

Drivers face extremely heavy penalties if their train is late. They are forced into harsh and humiliating retraining programs (weeding and grass-cutting duties). It is bad to the point where some get stressed out, end up exceeding the maximum safe speed going around a bend, and something like the Amagasaki rail crash happens.

 

It is not without downsides, but any improvement to infrastructure, and maintaining those high standards, is overall a good thing.

 

Meanwhile in Sydney, I recall once being 90 minutes late to an exam because some old woman decided to try and commit suicide on the tracks at Granville. Poor woman, but there was zero compensation for the other people impacted by the delay. Absolutely pathetic.

[LoE Ferret]

50 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

This is what I'm talking about.

 

Consider me corrected. Thanks for the chart

[GoodBytes]

28 minutes ago, vorticalbox said:

the UWP seems like a good idea. You make one app and it runs across all your devices. What it actually is is a way for Microsoft to lock in their ecosystem into a single store. Their store. I can see them phasing out win32 all together at some point.

You can make your own store if you want. UWP apps can be downloaded and installed outside of the Store.

 

No, UWP will not replace Win32. They work differently with each their own specialization.