Converting win32 and .net into UWP

[nobelharvards]

https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2016/09/14/apps-built-using-the-desktop-bridge-now-available-in-the-windows-store/#iM57yQoJbxbezFYD.97

 

Quote

A few months ago, during Build 2016, we announced the Desktop Bridge, enabling developers to bring their existing desktop apps and games over to the Universal Windows Platform (UWP) by converting their app or game with the Desktop App Converter and then enhancing and extending it with UWP functionality.
Read more at https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2016/09/14/apps-built-using-the-desktop-bridge-now-available-in-the-windows-store/#KmQmv7OVo0HzzleZ.99

Microsoft released a program for converting win32 and .net applications to UWP.

 

Curious to see if converted applications will have as many artefacts as upgraded Windows 10 installations.

[dalekphalm]

Just now, nobelharvards said:

https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2016/09/14/apps-built-using-the-desktop-bridge-now-available-in-the-windows-store/#iM57yQoJbxbezFYD.97

 

Microsoft released a program for converting win32 and .net applications to UWP.

 

Curious to see if converted applications will have as many artefacts as upgraded Windows 10 installations.

The app isn't 100% automated. The dev is still responsible for bug fixing and going through the code making sure everything makes sense.

 

The comparison to Windows 10 upgrades doesn't make a lot of sense, since they're very different processes.

 

It's quite possible that the app leaves some bad code behind - in fact, I would almost guarantee that it does. But the effectiveness of it, is no doubt directly related to how good the code was to begin with.

[kiska3]

I think it'll have all the flaws of UWP, where an application will take up to 10 mins to start up before you can do anything.

[TetraSky]

5 minutes ago, kiska3 said:

I think it'll have all the flaws of UWP, where an application will take up to 10 mins to start up before you can do anything.

If it takes more than a minutes to do anything, it's probably your computer's fault.

[kiska3]

4 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

If it takes more than a minutes to do anything, it's probably your computer's fault.

I am just exaggerating. While a UWP app starts up you can't do anything, whilst a win32 app starts up you can do something whilst it is starting up. e.g while IE is starting up, you start typing into the address bar, but with Edge if you start typing it'll 'forget' what you typed whilst it is starting up, only when it has fully initialised does it do anything

[GoodBytes]

5 minutes ago, kiska3 said:

I am just exaggerating. While a UWP app starts up you can't do anything, whilst a win32 app starts up you can do something whilst it is starting up. e.g while IE is starting up, you start typing into the address bar, but with Edge if you start typing it'll 'forget' what you typed whilst it is starting up, only when it has fully initialised does it do anything

Yea you have something wrong with your system. UWP is fairly light. I mean Calculator open instantly on my side on all my systems.

Even if I open a large software: Edge, Office Mobile, Grove Music with a bunch of music, it opens under 1sec. And I don't have this problem with Edge... (assuming you are using the default home page, if you make it go to a website, then it needs to load it and yea, this could happen, but I recall happening under IE as well).

 

[SansVarnic]

8 minutes ago, kiska3 said:

I am just exaggerating. While a UWP app starts up you can't do anything, whilst a win32 app starts up you can do something whilst it is starting up. e.g while IE is starting up, you start typing into the address bar, but with Edge if you start typing it'll 'forget' what you typed whilst it is starting up, only when it has fully initialised does it do anything

I agree with @GoodBytes and @TetraSky it has to be your system. Personally I have not experienced what you are describing. 

Please give a detailed description of what is going on, maybe we can help diagnose the issue . . . 

[GoodBytes]

25 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

The app isn't 100% automated. The dev is still responsible for bug fixing and going through the code making sure everything makes sense.

 

The comparison to Windows 10 upgrades doesn't make a lot of sense, since they're very different processes.

 

It's quite possible that the app leaves some bad code behind - in fact, I would almost guarantee that it does. But the effectiveness of it, is no doubt directly related to how good the code was to begin with.

Depends. If you have a basic Win32 .NET app, yea, it should be virtually no work.

But if you have a custom GUI using a custom or non-Microsoft GUI framework (example: Steam), or are you doing special stuff, or depends on minimum window size, or lock the window size, it will be an issue, as UWP doesn't support this (as it is fully based on the fact that the GUI is GPU rendered, and expected to work with all screen resolutions and sizes (Phone, HoloLens, XBox One, desktop, tablet and convertibles)

[nobelharvards]

9 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Yea you have something wrong with your system. UWP is fairly light. I mean Calculator open instantly on my side on all my systems.

Even if I open a large software: Edge, Office Mobile, Grove Music with a bunch of music, it opens under 1sec. And I don't have this problem with Edge... (assuming you are using the default home page, if you make it go to a website, then it needs to load it and yea, this could happen, but I recall happening under IE as well).

 

One of the last things I normally do before bed is to check the weather.

 

With the UWP weather app, it takes ~4 seconds to load. I'm just staring at a static loading screen.

 

By then, I've moved onto another train of thought.

 

I don't want to sound like a millennial, but I have clear recollections of win32 applications loading faster, and more importantly, being able to do work BEFORE it has finished loading all the random background assets. The delayed startup isn't the problem, its the break in the train of thought/productivity and the regression from win32.

 

The user experience just feels like a step backwards compared to say... win32, or even ART on my phone.

[SansVarnic]

2 minutes ago, nobelharvards said:

One of the last things I normally do before bed is to check the weather.

 

With the UWP weather app, it takes ~4 seconds to load. I'm just staring at a static loading screen.

 

By then, I've moved onto another train of thought.

 

I don't want to sound like a millennial, but I have clear recollections of win32 applications loading faster, and more importantly, being able to do work BEFORE it has finished loading all the random background assets. The delayed startup isn't the problem, its the break in the train of thought/productivity and the regression from win32.

Could be your connection, wired, wireless or cellular. 9/10 times it is my connection for me.

[nobelharvards]

1 minute ago, SansVarnic said:

Could be your connection, wired, wireless or cellular. 9/10 times it is my connection for me.

Nope. For me, in ~2 seconds I can unlock my Nexus 5 (2013), swipe right and look at the Google Now weather card. It is faster for me to do that, than use the UWP app on my computer.

 

Clean install of Windows 10 1511, only background apps are PushBullet, Steam and F.lux.

[SansVarnic]

3 minutes ago, nobelharvards said:

Nope. For me, in ~2 seconds I can unlock my Nexus 5 (2013), swipe right and look at the Google Now weather card. It is faster for me to do that, than use the UWP app on my computer.

 

Clean install of Windows 10 1511, only background apps are PushBullet, Steam and F.lux.

I use my phone for whether mostly rather than my pc these days. Unlock my 950XL and look at the Weather Channel live tile in about 1-3 seconds.

[GoodBytes]

20 minutes ago, nobelharvards said:

One of the last things I normally do before bed is to check the weather.

With the UWP weather app, it takes ~4 seconds to load. I'm just staring at a static loading screen.

In 3 sec, it loads on my side, fetches the latest info from the server and finished the animation it does (but it opens in <1 sec). And my PC is old: Core i7 930 non-OC, 6GB of RAM, GeForce 680.

 

Do you happen to have an HDD? If so, maybe you need to defrag it.

[The Benjamins]

16 minutes ago, nobelharvards said:

One of the last things I normally do before bed is to check the weather.

 

With the UWP weather app, it takes ~4 seconds to load. I'm just staring at a static loading screen.

 

By then, I've moved onto another train of thought.

 

I don't want to sound like a millennial, but I have clear recollections of win32 applications loading faster, and more importantly, being able to do work BEFORE it has finished loading all the random background assets. The delayed startup isn't the problem, its the break in the train of thought/productivity and the regression from win32.

 

The user experience just feels like a step backwards compared to say... win32, or even ART on my phone.

weather opened in 1 sec for the first time ever for me. and after i git find my location the weather poped up in a sec too. after the first time it opens and loads in about 1-1.5 sec for me

[LoE Ferret]

If 4 seconds is too slow for some people I shudder to think how you survived before solid state drives when booting up a PC.

 

Do you guys have strokes waiting to cross a road? Do you get triggered by queues at a restaurant?

 

 

[kiska3]

34 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

In 3 sec, it loads on my side, fetches the latest info from the server and finished the animation it does (but it opens in <1 sec). And my PC is old: Core i7 930 non-OC, 6GB of RAM, GeForce 680.

 

Do you happen to have an HDD? If so, maybe you need to defrag it.

 

It would fine if it was running on an SSD, but most people have a 5400rpm hard drive or worse a tablet such as the hp 2 in 1 pavilion x2 that use a micro sd card as primary storage. It takes 4.63 seconds to load the weather app for me, imagine this, if Windows was an UWP app, where you have the wait for every single service to load in before you could do anything, wouldn't be frustrating, and don't say have an SSD. Now currently windows allows you to start programs as services load in but maybe slow and laggy, all associated with programs sharing IO.

 

This is on a fresh install of windows build 1607, with ZERO programs installed.

 

Hardware: i5-4210U, 8GB ram, 1TB 5400rpm, geforce 840m, etc, etc

[nobelharvards]

15 minutes ago, LoE Ferret said:

If 4 seconds is too slow for some people I shudder to think how you survived before solid state drives when booting up a PC.

 

Do you guys have strokes waiting to cross a road? Do you get triggered by queues at a restaurant?

 

 

Like I said, I do not want to sound like a millennial. The problem is, win32 and ART applications "feel" more responsive and I have a better UX on those than UWP.

 

UWP is supposedly the "new" platform, yet the UX and responsiveness just "feels" worse than win32 apps I've experienced before.

 

Newer things that are designed to directly succeed something older should be overwhelmingly better than the proposed older thing to be replaced. With UWP, it just feels like a step backwards in some ways, better in others. Overall a mixed package.

 

I'm not an edgy teen suffering from ADHD. I do not use my phone on the train. I do not have earbuds on whilst walking. I just do not like people going "Hey, this is new, its better!" when its not, and there are clearly some deficiencies compared with the older thing to be replaced.

[GoodBytes]

5400 RPM HDD is the user fault. There is no excuse. If the user has 7200 RPM then it probably needs what I like to call deep defrag.

That is where not only all data is defragmented, but it is one after another in order of usage, so that the disk head doesn't need to fly all over the place to get all the files, but rather they are 1 after another.. mostly.

 

To do this, you need a software. I recommend O&O defrag, It is not free, but trial version is all you need.. it is something you do once per install anyway.

Install, and start the software, then pick the down arrow under "Start" button, and pick "Complete/Access" option. And let it do its thing. It can take up to 8h depending on your drive speed, and how much data you have. So it might be best to do it over night. Just be sure you disable Sleep, and enable it back, once it is done. Once done, restart, you should notice a performance increase already. Uninstall the software, and you are ready to go. They are more options if you want gain every milliseconds on things, like a out of OS defrag to defrag (normal standard defrag. Pretty fast) every file possible.

[LoE Ferret]

7 minutes ago, nobelharvards said:

Like I said, I do not want to sound like a millennial. The problem is, win32 and ART applications "feel" more responsive and I have a better UX on those than UWP.

 

UWP is supposedly the "new" platform, yet the UX and responsiveness just "feels" worse than win32 apps I've experienced before.

 

Newer things that are designed to directly succeed something older should be overwhelmingly better than the proposed older thing to be replaced. With UWP, it just feels like a step backwards in some ways, better in others. Overall a mixed package.

 

I'm not an edgy teen suffering from ADHD. I do not use my phone on the train. I do not have earbuds on whilst walking. I just do not like people going "Hey, this is new, its better!" when its not, and there are clearly some deficiencies compared with the older thing to be replaced.

 

I get what you are saying "UWP is not appearing as responsive" which looks to be true and worth following up. Just delivery of information. Similar to when Linux people have a selling point of the boot time, I plan to boot up once per session so unless my normal boot is minutes in length (I had an old, old Pentium 100Mhz that I dragged into undeath for years that would do that on XP) so it is kinda a moot point.

 

In general I think UWP needs a lot of work before it can be really pushed. Look at the effect in gaming, Quantum Broken and GoW. UWP is not ready for mass appeal, I wonder if it will ever be but that is a topic for another day.

 

 

 

 

[GoodBytes]

6 minutes ago, nobelharvards said:

Like I said, I do not want to sound like a millennial. The problem is, win32 and ART applications "feel" more responsive and I have a better UX on those than UWP.

 

UWP is supposedly the "new" platform, yet the UX and responsiveness just "feels" worse than win32 apps I've experienced before.

UWP applications are 100% GPU rendered. Win32 are CPU rendered (unless they specifically use DirectX or OpenGL, like games, or 3D software like 3D Studio Max).

So your experience is based on your GPU performance as well.

 

6 minutes ago, nobelharvards said:

Newer things that are designed to directly succeed something older should be overwhelmingly better than the proposed older thing to be replaced. With UWP, it just feels like a step backwards in some ways, better in others. Overall a mixed package.

UWP is massively better over Win32.

• High-DPI aware by default (devs doesn't need to do anything, so guaranteed support... of course, I don't know what happens with these converted software).
• Fully GPU rendered, as mentioned, for the most fluid experience. Phones app platforms work like this. GPU are mention for 2D/3D graphics. CPU sucks at drawing, so why use them for such a task? (note: when I say CPU, I mean the actual CPU. Intel integrated graphics is a GPU inside a CPU).
• Touch and Multi-touch support (this is actually hard to implement. UWP ensures the users identical experience between software).
• Ink support (also hard to do if you want great results and pressure sensitivity).
• Sandboxed. While it limits a software ability (can't edit registry at will, can't run as Admin, etc.), it offers high security to the user.
• Clean install and uninstall of the app. no extra effort needed by developers (which most don't bother).
• Run on ARM (Windows 10 Mobile), x86, x86-64 CPUs directly.
• Easier to work with

Win32 is indeed actually faster, because UWP is more complete and higher level platform. It needs to be to offer all these benefits.

Win32 was introduced back with Windows NT 3.1.. so 1993. It is very light, and limited in providing out of the box features for the dev and users.

 

UWP is possible today thanks to faster computers. So yes, if your PC is old, or slow (~400-500$ laptop, for example), then yea, you are in for slow experience. But it should not be a problem for most.

[AlTech]

3 hours ago, nobelharvards said:

One of the last things I normally do before bed is to check the weather.

 

With the UWP weather app, it takes ~4 seconds to load. I'm just staring at a static loading screen.

 

By then, I've moved onto another train of thought.

 

I don't want to sound like a millennial, but I have clear recollections of win32 applications loading faster, and more importantly, being able to do work BEFORE it has finished loading all the random background assets. The delayed startup isn't the problem, its the break in the train of thought/productivity and the regression from win32.

 

The user experience just feels like a step backwards compared to say... win32, or even ART on my phone.

If you can't wait 10 seconds for some app or program to open, why are you using a PC? Use mobile devices only.

 

2 hours ago, LoE Ferret said:

If 4 seconds is too slow for some people I shudder to think how you survived before solid state drives when booting up a PC.

 

Do you guys have strokes waiting to cross a road? Do you get triggered by queues at a restaurant?

 

 

The younger generation have been raised to be impatient and annoying people.

 

2 hours ago, LoE Ferret said:

 

I get what you are saying "UWP is not appearing as responsive" which looks to be true and worth following up. Just delivery of information. Similar to when Linux people have a selling point of the boot time, I plan to boot up once per session so unless my normal boot is minutes in length (I had an old, old Pentium 100Mhz that I dragged into undeath for years that would do that on XP) so it is kinda a moot point.

 

In general I think UWP needs a lot of work before it can be really pushed. Look at the effect in gaming, Quantum Broken and GoW. UWP is not ready for mass appeal, I wonder if it will ever be but that is a topic for another day.

 

 

 

 

It is ready for Mass appeal, tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of apps in the store are UWP apps ad games.

 

There is nothing wrong with it. Some apps like Wunderlist take forever to load but most don't.

[Dabombinable]

19 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

If you can't wait 10 seconds for some app or program to open, why are you using a PC? Use mobile devices only.

 

The younger generation have been raised to be impatient and annoying people.

 

It is ready for Mass appeal, tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of apps in the store are UWP apps ad games.

 

There is nothing wrong with it. Some apps like Wunderlist take forever to load but most don't.

Now lets be fair, when a 2010 $999 AUD laptop with a 7200RPM 120MB/sec max sustained SATA2 HDD does everything faster than a 2013 notebook/ultraportable which cost the same and has a SATA3 SSD-you have a right to be impatient.

[laminutederire]

4 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Yea you have something wrong with your system. UWP is fairly light. I mean Calculator open instantly on my side on all my systems.

Even if I open a large software: Edge, Office Mobile, Grove Music with a bunch of music, it opens under 1sec. And I don't have this problem with Edge... (assuming you are using the default home page, if you make it go to a website, then it needs to load it and yea, this could happen, but I recall happening under IE as well).

 

Maybe it was UWP from the start which explains why it never worked

[nobelharvards]

This "hurr durr, what is wrong with a few seconds" talk is absolute bullshit and holds back society in general.

 

Look at the NBN project in Australia. Its a disaster. And the important part is, nobody is educated enough to care. People are happy with their 1mbps 30 gig per month plan.

 

This backwards thinking is extremely detrimental to progress in a lot of fields.

 

To take it to the extreme, would you prefer going back to 56 kbit/s modems or internet being interrupted every time someone answered a phone call?

 

If there is any reasonable improvement that can be made in ANY area, whether that be latency or loading times, without significantly compromising in other areas, then it SHOULD be made.

 

Right now the UX in even basic UWP applications like the calculator, Edge or the mail client just feels unfinished, much like Windows 10 in general.

In the end, UX is what matters most. The mass crowd won't listen to all the amazing technical details, if the end product is worse than the product it is supposed to be succeeding.

 

Those who grew up with parents who were contract carpenters or other similar work will know the feeling of constantly moving house, and more to the point, the feeling of living in a house that is constantly being worked on. Sawdust on all your clothes. Sawdust in your favourite bread spread because someone forgot to put the lid back on. Sawdust everywhere. Yuck.

[deviant88]

so Tim Sweeny was right, well we all know MS sucks and that they are trying to do, nothing good for the user thats for sure