Random thoughts on human euthanasia

[spartaman64]

I've been thinking a lot about consensual (not forced) human euthanasia basically asking the doctor to take your life. And I think at a base most people here and in the world would agree that if someone is in great pain and its incurable he should be allowed to ask the doctor to end his suffering. But I'm going to take it further and say that people who isn't in physical pain but emotional pain or even if there is no particular reason should be allowed to ask for their life to end. On a human rights level i believe that the right to life should also extend to the right to end your life. And if you want to end your life it isn't that hard without the help of a doctor by doing things like jumping into traffic or jumping off a building but a doctor could do it in ways less painful and not endangering other people. One argument that people have against this is that it causes family and friends emotional distress but if that is grounds for outlawing this then if you as a 30 year old get a tattoo and your family is super against tattoos should you be fined for getting a tattoo and causing your family distress. So my view is your life belongs to you and if you want to end it as sole owner of your life you should be able to do it legally.

 

Edit: A thought on the Hippocratic oath doctors take vowing now to harm their patients limitation. If a doctor refuses to do the procedure arguable they might be hurting their patients more if they are in physical or emotional pain. Also every time a doctor performs a surgery etc they must hurt their patient to make them better and this case probably also counts as "better" because the patient considers being dead better than being alive.

 

This is a very dark topic and i felt squeamish writing this post but i think its a good topic to think about and says something important about what rights people should have over themselves.

[ThinkWithPortals]

5 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

 

I agree with you pretty much. If someone wants their life over, they should be obliged.

Unless it's for a super-stupid reason, of course.

 

Can we make the Futurama Suicide Booths a thing, please?

 

[Volbet]

I would agree that the family argument is void, but I still think there is more to human euthanasia than what you put forth.

 

When a person is in emotional pain (depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc) then the debate should be more focused on whether or not the person can give consent to be euthanized.

A person that is chronically depressed might not be suited to make a decision that will end their life.

 

There is also the issue of how little we know of mental illness. 

As far as I can tell, no one currently can determin whether or not a mental illness is cureable. 

Treatable maybe, but not cureable. 

[spartaman64]

5 minutes ago, Volbet said:

I would agree that the family argument is void, but I still think there is more to human euthanasia than what you put forth.

 

When a person is in emotional pain (depression, anxiety, PTSD, etc) then the debate should be more focused on whether or not the person can give consent to be euthanized.

A person that is chronically depressed might not be suited to make a decision that will end their life.

 

There is also the issue of how little we know of mental illness. 

As far as I can tell, no one currently can determin whether or not a mental illness is cureable. 

Treatable maybe, but not cureable. 

ok as a thought experiment lets say a person is in excruciating pain but it wears off in 4 days but the person says they cant take it and wants to end their life. should the person be allowed to?

[Volbet]

2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

ok as a thought experiment lets say a person is in excruciating pain but it wears off in 4 days but the person says they cant take it and wants to end their life. should the person be allowed to?

Absolutly, I think any rational person has the right to end their own life.

But I doubt any doctor is going to assist in the suicide, since the pain will go away. 

 

The problem with using a purelty somatic illness, is that most people retain their wits even when they are in pain.

People with mental problems don't always retain their rationality, so it would make sense to question their decisions. 

 

This is why I find it fallacious to equate mental and physical illnesses. 

[spartaman64]

4 minutes ago, Volbet said:

Absolutly, I think any rational person has the right to end their own life.

But I doubt any doctor is going to assist in the suicide, since the pain will go away. 

 

The problem with using a purelty somatic illness, is that most people retain their wits even when they are in pain.

People with mental problems don't always retain their rationality, so it would make sense to question their decisions. 

 

This is why I find it fallacious to equate mental and physical illnesses. 

well if its depression we are talking about the person is in a lot of emotional pain and imo that can be just as bad or worse than excruciating physical pain so if they say they cant handle it should they be allowed to end their life or even is that a justifiable course of action

[AresKrieger]

If people want to die, I see no problem with granting their wish, however it would be preferable if they offed themselves since it's less of a legal problem to sort out. So maybe they should just leave a large syringe full of morphine lying around leaving the action up to the person themselves.

[spartaman64]

4 minutes ago, AresKrieger said:

If people want to die, I see no problem with granting their wish, however it would be preferable if they offed themselves since it less of a legal problem to sort out. So maybe they should just leave a large syringe full of morphine lying around leaving the action up to the person themselves.

from what i know a morphine overdose can kill you by stopping your breathing a fairly uncomfortable way to die. and why i think a doctor should assist in doing it is people have ways of doing it themselves sure but their methods are painful while a doctor can do it with a mixture of chemicals fairly painlessly

[Volbet]

2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

well if its depression we are talking about the person is in a lot of emotional pain and imo that can be just as bad or worse than excruciating physical pain so if they say they cant handle it should they be allowed to end their life or even is that a justifiable course of action

You keep returning to the same point. I'm beginning to think you don't even consider my point. 

Or maybe I'm just not conveying my thoughts properly. 

 

The thing is that if a person is depressed, then they might not be in a position to make a rational decision, since the depression can hinder their ability to rationally assess the consequences of their decision. 

Therefor, we should ask ourselves whether or not this depressed person should be allowed to end their life, seeing how it isn't likely that this decision is based on anything but a madman's thoughts.

 

And I'll bring up the cure example again.

If a person is diagnosed with, say, bone cancer that is pretty much a sentence to an excruciating life. 

However, we can treat and even cure bone cancer. We know this illness can go away and that the patient doesn't have to live in pain. 

 

We don't really know the same thing about mental illness. 

It is not known whether or not a mental illness can ever be cured or if the patient just learns to live with it. 

And the ways of treating patients are pretty much infinite, since treatment often relies on the individual patient. 

There will therefor always be another posibility of treatment. 

 

3 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

from what i know a morphine overdose can kill you by stopping your breathing a fairly uncomfortable way to die. and why i think a doctor should assist in doing it is people have ways of doing it themselves sure but their methods are painful while a doctor can do it with a mixture of chemicals fairly painlessly

While I haven't OD'ed on Morphine, I have OD'ed on Heroin more than once and that lead to clinical death at one occasion.

And I didn't feel a thing. Dying and being dead feels like absolute nothing. Waking up, however, is painful as all hell.  

[AresKrieger]

2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

from what i know a morphine overdose can kill you by stopping your breathing a fairly uncomfortable way to die. and why i think a doctor should assist in doing it is people have ways of doing it themselves sure but their methods are painful while a doctor can do it with a mixture of chemicals fairly painlessly

I was just a cliche movie example, though I did think the morphine's effects would counteract any potential pain, but I was being metaphorical mostly.

[Dredgy]

Very much in favour of it, though haven't understood it that well until recently, and I'm not sure you can until you've known someone who needs euthanasia.

My grandfather died last week of brain cancer. He wasn't remotely afraid of dying, but he was terrified of losing his mental state (apart from the cancer he was in fantastic physical and mental shape). It's a hard thing to do, to lie to a loved one and tell them you won't let them go mad when of course there's nothing you can do about it. We were able to induce a sort of coma with morphine so he was not in pain, even though it seemed like it.

 

But that's not helpful to myself, my mother or least of all my grandmother who had to sit and watch her partner of 55 years, and someone who was the embodiment of of strength, struggling to breath or open his eyes and essentially be a vegetable. Its incredibly hard to be a family member in that situation and not be able to alleviate it.

 

Thankfully that vegetable state only lasted a day or two, I have no idea how people could do it for longer and if it was me in that situation, I would have liked to be put out of my misery around the time I couldn't brush my own teeth.

 

 

As mentioned above, mental illness is a different ballgame and I'm not an ethicist but arguments can be made both ways and if you're mental suffering is so great to you that you want to die, and the desire is persistent, then you should be able to consent to it. I know if I am ever in the position that I can't give consent to die, then I would probably want to die.

[iamdarkyoshi]

I had to watch my grandmother die. I was with her for every last breath she had. I think the best thing to do is just comfort them and let nature do its work.

[spartaman64]

9 minutes ago, Volbet said:

You keep returning to the same point. I'm beginning to think you don't even consider my point. 

Or maybe I'm just not conveying my thoughts properly. 

 

The thing is that if a person is depressed, then they might not be in a position to make a rational decision, since the depression can hinder their ability to rationally assess the consequences of their decision. 

Therefor, we should ask ourselves whether or not this depressed person should be allowed to end their life, seeing how it isn't likely that this decision is based on anything but a madman's thoughts.

 

And I'll bring up the cure example again.

If a person is diagnosed with, say, bone cancer that is pretty much a sentence to an excruciating life. 

However, we can treat and even cure bone cancer. We know this illness can go away and that the patient doesn't have to live in pain. 

 

We don't really know the same thing about mental illness. 

It is not known whether or not a mental illness can ever be cured or if the patient just learns to live with it. 

And the ways of treating patients are pretty much infinite, since treatment often relies on the individual patient. 

There will therefor always be another posibility of treatment. 

 

While I haven't OD'ed on Morphine, I have OD'ed on Heroin more than once and that lead to clinical death at one occasion.

And I didn't feel a thing. Dying and being dead feels like absolute nothing. Waking up, however, is painful as all hell.  

i think a depressed person is still capable of rational thought they are just in a lot of emotional pain and if we consider emotional pain with the same seriousness as physical pain then there shouldnt be a difference between my example of someone being in physical pain for 4 days but decide he cant stand suffering through that time to get better and even if we say the guy in excruciating physical pain has a mental disorder would it change your verdict for that scenario? and idk for sure what a morphine OD does but i found on google that it kills you by stopping your breathing and having pain blocked or no i feel like that would still be a uncomfortable death but i might be wrong. and also you need a doctor to get morphine anyways and i dont think a doctor will give you enough morphine to kill yourself.

[Volbet]

1 hour ago, spartaman64 said:

i think a depressed person is still capable of rational thought they are just in a lot of emotional pain and if we consider emotional pain with the same seriousness as physical pain then there shouldnt be a difference between my example of someone being in physical pain for 4 days but decide he cant stand suffering through that time to get better. and idk for sure what a morphine OD does but i found on google that it kills you by stopping your breathing and having pain blocked or no i feel like that would still be a uncomfortable death but i might be wrong. and also you need a doctor to get morphine anyways and i dont think a doctor will give you enough morphine to kill yourself.

I would consider emotional pain to be as serious as physical pain, but I don't consider then equal, seeing how emotional pain can affect your mental faculties while physical pain doesn't do that to the same extend. 

 

I can't say if no depressed person can or can't make a rational decision, snice depression affect everyone differently. 

But by the very nature of the illness I would be sceptical of the persons decisions. 

 

Morphiats do slow down your breathing, but it mainly slows down your heartbeat. 

You basically suffer from a heartattack if you OD on Heroin.   

[spartaman64]

4 minutes ago, Volbet said:

I would consider emotional pain to be as serious as physical pain, but I don't consider then equal, seeing how emotional pain can affect your mental faculties while physical pain doesn't do that to the same extend. 

 

I can't say if no depressed person can or can't make a rational decision, sice depression affect everyone differently. 

But by the very nature of the illness I would be sceptical of the persons decisions. 

 

Morphiats do slow down your breathing, but it mainly slows down your heartbeat. 

You basically suffer from a heartattack if you OD on Heroin.   

ok so lets say the guy in excruciating pain for 4 days but asks for his life to end because he cant stand the pain has an mental disorder would you say that changes his rights to ending his life?

[Volbet]

1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

ok so lets say the guy in excruciating pain for 4 days but asks for his life to end because he cant stand the pain has an mental disorder would you say that changes his rights to ending his life?

Well, here we end up talking about two different things (which I guess we have done all along). 

 

Every person has the right to end their life, but the doctors that should assist in the suicide doesn't have to respect a persons wish. 

A depressed person still have the right to hang themselves if they so desire. 

 

But if we return to the more pragmatical. 

Yes, the person in your example still should still have his death wish granted, since the basic premis hasn't changed. 

The decision the person makes to end his life is still based around the physical ailment and not on the mental troubles the person suffers from.

[spartaman64]

3 minutes ago, Volbet said:

Well, here we end up talking about two different things (which I guess we have done all along). 

 

Every person has the right to end their life, but the doctors that should assist in the suicide doesn't have to respect a persons wish. 

A depressed person still have the right to hang themselves if they so desire. 

 

But if we return to the more pragmatical. 

Yes, the person in your example still should still have his death wish granted, since the basic premis hasn't changed. 

The decision the person makes to end his life is still based around the physical ailment and not on the mental troubles the person suffers from.

but that person also arguably cant make a rational decision because of his mental disorder and is almost in an identical situation to the person suffering emotional pain through depression and of course a doctor shouldnt be forced to assist but if the doctor agrees with the patient and wants to do the euthanasia procedure should he/she be legally allowed to

[Volbet]

1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

but that person also arguably cant make a rational decision because of his mental disorder and is almost in an identical situation to the person suffering emotional pain through depression and of course a doctor shouldnt be forced to assist but if the doctor agrees with the patient and wants to do the euthanasia procedure should he/she be legally allowed to

Again, the assessment in your example relies soley on the physical side. The mental side playes no role, since the assessement is made by both parties. 

 

I would also argue, again, that the doctor wouldn't go through with it seeing how there is a time limit to the pain. 

In such a case the objectiv view of the doctor trumps the subjective view of the patient. 

[minibois]

We had a thread about this last week and my views on this subject have not changed. You have the right to live, so you also should have the right to end it. I would much rather have it be government controlled, than people just doing suicide by jumping in front of a train or whatever.

[spartaman64]

6 minutes ago, Volbet said:

Again, the assessment in your example relies soley on the physical side. The mental side playes no role, since the assessement is made by both parties. 

 

I would also argue, again, that the doctor wouldn't go through with it seeing how there is a time limit to the pain. 

In such a case the objectiv view of the doctor trumps the subjective view of the patient. 

ok what am i missing in both cases the patient is in pain and arguably isnt in a mental state to make rational decisions

also if a doctor was willing to go through with it should the doctor be allowed to in the first place

[Volbet]

23 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

ok what am i missing in both cases the patient is in pain and arguably isnt in a mental state to make rational decisions

also if a doctor was willing to go through with it should the doctor be allowed to in the first place

The thing about physical pain, is that it most likely doesn't affect your reasoning, so it would be somewhat safe to assume that a patient in physical pain is capable of making a rational decision. 

 

And in cases where there is doubt, then I wouldn't say the decision to end the patients life should be left to just one doctor and the patient. 

Several people from different medical fields would have to look at the case. 

[spartaman64]

3 minutes ago, Volbet said:

The thing about physical pain, is that it most likely doesn't affect your reasoning, so it would be somewhat safe to assume that a patient in physical pain is capable of making a rational decision. 

 

And in cases where there is doubt, then I wouldn't say the decision to end the patients life should be left to just one doctor and the patient. 

Several people from different medical fields would have to look at the case. 

that why i added in the detail that the person in physical pain also has an mental disorder. also one thing im think about is should there be centers set up just for euthanasia and if a person shows up and says he isnt in physical or emotional pain but just wants to end his life should he be allowed to do so 

[Volbet]

8 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

that why i added in the detail that the person in physical pain also has an mental disorder. also one thing im think about is should there be centers set up just for euthanasia and if a person shows up and says he isnt in physical or emotional pain but just wants to end his life should he be allowed to do so 

As said, a person always has the right to end their own life. 

But I highly doubt that you could find any professional doctor that would just end a persons life just for the hell of it. 

A person that want to end their life has every possibility of shooting or hanging themself. 

That is their choice. There is no reason why a doctor or a governmental system should respect that choice just by the nature of it being a choice. 

 

One could also argue that thoughts of suicide would be a symptom of a serious mental issue or physical ailment. 

 

And your example that added the mental issue is still not worth considering, since the decision about ending the persons life doesn't rely on the mental side of the issue. 

[Misanthrope]

2 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

I've been thinking a lot about consensual (not forced) human euthanasia basically asking the doctor to take your life. And I think at a base most people here and in the world would agree that if someone is in great pain and its incurable he should be allowed to ask the doctor to end his suffering. But I'm going to take it further and say that people who isn't in physical pain but emotional pain or even if there is no particular reason should be allowed to ask for their life to end. On a human rights level i believe that the right to life should also extend to the right to end your life. And if you want to end your life it isn't that hard without the help of a doctor by doing things like jumping into traffic or jumping off a building but a doctor could do it in ways less painful and not endangering other people. One argument that people have against this is that it causes family and friends emotional distress but if that is grounds for outlawing this then if you as a 30 year old get a tattoo and your family is super against tattoos should you be fined for getting a tattoo and causing your family distress. So my view is your life belongs to you and if you want to end it as sole owner of your life you should be able to do it legally.

 

Edit: A thought on the Hippocratic oath doctors take vowing now to harm their patients limitation. If a doctor refuses to do the procedure arguable they might be hurting their patients more if they are in physical or emotional pain. Also every time a doctor performs a surgery etc they must hurt their patient to make them better and this case probably also counts as "better" because the patient considers being dead better than being alive.

 

This is a very dark topic and i felt squeamish writing this post but i think its a good topic to think about and says something important about what rights people should have over themselves.

Why? Do you realize that emotional pain can be even worst for your quality of life and magnify any physical pain to boot?

 

Forcing someone with extreme depression to keep on living is basically torture. Counceling and therapy are actually not sure fire ways to cure it and even then not fast enough for many.

[spartaman64]

46 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Why? Do you realize that emotional pain can be even worst for your quality of life and magnify any physical pain to boot?

 

Forcing someone with extreme depression to keep on living is basically torture. Counceling and therapy are actually not sure fire ways to cure it and even then not fast enough for many.

you must have misread because i said that they should be allowed to end their life