"Brexit"

[rm -rf]

1 minute ago, Mug said:

I think that the thing is that many leave voters didn't know what they voted for. Like what did you vote for? Common market integration like Norway where they have to follow the laws? A painful trade deal which would take years like Switzerland?

My point is simple: Leave voters were voting on multiple (and completely different) models of internationalism. I hate to say this, but I support Jeremy Hunt's idea for a second referendum on what we should be negotiating for... And perhaps if we should be negotiating. I think that that is a valid argument for a second referendum.

 

It was an advisory referendum.

Why aren't they evoking article 50 immediately? It's the will of the people.

Not even the pro-Brexiters wanted to.

 

Also, it seems that Scotland and North Ireland will leave the UK.

Discussion is now occurring about London leaving the UK (yes that is possible and viable)

[Mug]

1 minute ago, rm -rf said:

Why aren't they evoking article 50 immediately? It's the will of the people.

Not even the pro-Brexiters wanted to.

 

Also, it seems that Scotland and North Ireland will leave the UK.

Discussion is now occurring about London leaving the UK (yes that is possible and viable)

Well, it depends who you ask. Jean Claude Juncker thinks that we should, as does (surprise) Nigel Farage.

The will of the people was just to leave the EU though, not to leave it right now. I think that David Cameron has a fair point that it shouldn't be him if he's stepping down. If he was to trigger it now, he would have to negotiate during the party elections and then the new leader has to come in as a novice where people of experience are needed the most.

 

As for Northern Ireland, I doubt that will leave. The only people I've seen publicise this border (which would be the main trigger) is Sinn Fein, the nationalist party. I think Northern Ireland should leave though if some stupid politician put up a border. Scotland might leave but it's not going to happen quickly. imo, a departure from the UK would be more catastrophic for Scotland than a departure from the EU. What we should do is to finish the negotiations then talk about all this independence nonsense when the dust has settled. I think Nicola Sturgeon is pulling the wool over our eyes about this and trying for Scottish independence by the back door. Let's be serious, the SNP wanted this result. Their campaign in Scotland was close to nil, all they wanted was to exit the UK and they're perfectly willing to destroy the rest of the UK to achieve this.

 

London independence isn't on the cards. It never will be.

Look at this page, it's a joke.

https://twitter.com/LdnIndependence

 

"Let's touch out of Britain"

"What currency should we use? - Actual Oysters"

"OK Scotland, do you want the Northern or Metropolitan up your way?"

"We'll be needing an anthem - Mind the gap club remix"

 

[Guest]

I'm late on this, but I'll just jump in and say that Brexit will fuck over the nations that rely on tourism as the main source of their capital, and I'm saying this because I'm scared since I live in Croatia.

[You_are_a_cunt]

It should be reminded that just because the referendum happened it isn't set in stone that the UK will leave the EU. A referendum is not legally binding and the final decision is far more complex than just asking people (that frankly have no clue what the brexit involves) what they think they want to do.

The GBP has fallen to its lowest in the last 20-30 years (somewhere in that general area), innumerable EU citizens working and living legally (with no citizenship) in the UK are basically scared shitless that they'll lose everything they've worked for and that they have to eventually leave the UK to go back to basically nothing, forcing them to start over.

Then there's the overall economical impact. The GDP will drop faster than a brick in water, some EU countries might decide to not have any trade agreements with the UK.

Let's not forget that the UK is pretty much an island with some resources. How long until dung hits the fan and they realize that they can't sustain themselves and that they actually rely on imports?

There's a bucketload of reasons that leaving the EU is a bad idea, and not only on a large scale.

Leave voters are pretty much uneducated tits or people that are far too easily influenced by people promising things they can't possibly give.

[ImBleu]

Brexit wankers stole my EU Citizenship from me. I'm not overly amused Mr. Farage...

[Rupe]

1 hour ago, ThatCoolBlueKidd said:

Brexit wankers stole my EU Citizenship from me. I'm not overly amused Mr. Farage...

Brexit wankers gave you back democracy, the EU is distinctly undemocratic, out of 71 proposals UK MEPs have tried to veto in parliament a total of 0 of them were successfully stopped from going through. The idea that we have any power in the EU or any other member has any power is just not true. The un-elected commission of the EU is where the power is and to have a political union among such different varying countries/cultures is a venture in futility because it is impossible to have each country's interest at heart with each decision that is made.

The EU could of been a great thing as a free trade agreement but it was ruined by power hungry bureaucrats who wanted to keep adding more treaty's to increase the power of the EU to the point where the very nature of what the EU was changed. So as a political union not so good. Brexit puts the power back in westminster back where every single decision will be on the bases on whether it benefits Britain.

Im not a UKIP supporter but im glad Farage stuck it to the EU parliament like he did, and the hate brought out against Mr Farage by the left is almost entirely unjustified. 

Another point I wish to raise is how young people blame older generations for the vote to leave. A couple important things to note here 

1. In areas where there is a high population of young people the voter turnout was lower so maybe more young people should of given a shit. ITV said among the 18-25 age there was only a 36 percent turnout.

2. These are the same old people that voted us into the EU in 1973. They voted out because they saw how it has changed and where it was going. Old people saved young people from there own idealistic views.

Deals to make movement easier for British citizens across the EU are not off the table. Norway is part of the Schengen area and yet is not a member of the EU so policies can be arranged to make movement easier, although it is in the EUs best interests to make things as awkward for us as possible as they don't want other members to get any funny ideas of having there own referendums cas fuck democracy we would rather create some authoritarian state. 

Angela Merkel has made her position clear on what she believes our negotiation power is leaving the EU saying that the UK 'Cant Cherry Pick', suggesting that free trade deals cannot come out the free movement of people. Angela Merkel doesn't have much power in the EU either so its kinda like whatever. But it does show a certain mentality from the EU one that is spiteful.

 

[Real_PhillBert]

I read this morning that three major credit rating agencies lowered the UK's credit rating in wake of the Brexit vote.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36644934

[Rupe]

3 minutes ago, Real_PhillBert said:

I read this morning that three major credit rating agencies lowered the UK's credit rating in wake of the Brexit vote.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36644934

It is a time of uncertainty for traders so this was inevitable but once we have trade agreements in place things will stabilize and I would bet on us getting that AAA credit rating back.

[Real_PhillBert]

2 minutes ago, Rupe said:

It is a time of uncertainty for traders so this was inevitable but once we have trade agreements in place things will stabilize and I would bet on us getting that AAA credit rating back.

I actually 100% agree. I just thought it was pertinent info to this thread so I shared.

[ImBleu]

22 hours ago, Rupe said:

Brexit wankers gave you back democracy, the EU is distinctly undemocratic, out of 71 proposals UK MEPs have tried to veto in parliament a total of 0 of them were successfully stopped from going through. The idea that we have any power in the EU or any other member has any power is just not true. The un-elected commission of the EU is where the power is and to have a political union among such different varying countries/cultures is a venture in futility because it is impossible to have each country's interest at heart with each decision that is made.

The EU could of been a great thing as a free trade agreement but it was ruined by power hungry bureaucrats who wanted to keep adding more treaty's to increase the power of the EU to the point where the very nature of what the EU was changed. So as a political union not so good. Brexit puts the power back in westminster back where every single decision will be on the bases on whether it benefits Britain.

Im not a UKIP supporter but im glad Farage stuck it to the EU parliament like he did, and the hate brought out against Mr Farage by the left is almost entirely unjustified. 

Another point I wish to raise is how young people blame older generations for the vote to leave. A couple important things to note here 

1. In areas where there is a high population of young people the voter turnout was lower so maybe more young people should of given a shit. ITV said among the 18-25 age there was only a 36 percent turnout.

2. These are the same old people that voted us into the EU in 1973. They voted out because they saw how it has changed and where it was going. Old people saved young people from there own idealistic views.

Deals to make movement easier for British citizens across the EU are not off the table. Norway is part of the Schengen area and yet is not a member of the EU so policies can be arranged to make movement easier, although it is in the EUs best interests to make things as awkward for us as possible as they don't want other members to get any funny ideas of having there own referendums cas fuck democracy we would rather create some authoritarian state. 

Angela Merkel has made her position clear on what she believes our negotiation power is leaving the EU saying that the UK 'Cant Cherry Pick', suggesting that free trade deals cannot come out the free movement of people. Angela Merkel doesn't have much power in the EU either so its kinda like whatever. But it does show a certain mentality from the EU one that is spiteful.

 

I don't really care, I feel european first and british second. I am more proud of my EU Citizenship than my British Citizenship because in I'm barely 1/4th British whereas the remainder of my nationality is Dutch/German/French and various other EU nations, I just happen to have a UK passport instead of those of other nations. I want the UK in the EU, and if not at least in the EEA so I can continue with my right of abode in the Netherlands. 

 

Yes, my generation fucked up by not voting. At least my homeland (Scotland) was sane enough to vote remain.

 

[Rupe]

1 hour ago, ThatCoolBlueKidd said:

I don't really care, I feel european first and british second. I am more proud of my EU Citizenship than my British Citizenship because in I'm barely 1/4th British whereas the remainder of my nationality is Dutch/German/French and various other EU nations, I just happen to have a UK passport instead of those of other nations. I want the UK in the EU, and if not at least in the EEA so I can continue with my right of abode in the Netherlands. 

 

Yes, my generation fucked up by not voting. At least my homeland (Scotland) was sane enough to vote remain.

 

Why don't you explain to me why your so proud of being a member of the EU, similar to how i explained my dislike of the EU then we can have a real conversation and weigh up are reasons. Maybe you should be proud to be British because I assume its where you live? Perhaps because you like the values of the place, and if you don't like the values of Britain then fine. But you fail to explain yourself. 

 

You say your homeland of Scotland was 'sane' enough to vote remain. If you would care to actually tell me why your implying it was not a sane decision to leave then we can actually have a conversation based on reason and not just vitriolic rhetoric about how bad Britain is. Rhetoric is fine if its based around reasons why you believe something, otherwise you just seem like naive fanatic. 

You will still be able to go to the Netherlands, its not hard to get visas, and each country in the EU will be able to decide how difficult they want to make UK citizens coming into their country be and I don't think there going to be particularly harsh on that front, at worst your going have to have apply for a visa.

 

The EU might not give us access to the EEA without the free movement of people, but to recognize why they might not give us access to the EEA is very important. The EEA would be better with the UK in it, not many would deny this but the EU doesn't want to give us this because they don't care about what is best, they care more about keeping the Union alive, the EU has demonstrated through more policies and treaties that what they are interested in is control, they don't want to lose that so they will make sure to keep people in by making the punishment for leaving harsh, and not consider what is actually best for everyone. This is not an organisation I want to be a part of, and to be pro EU as you are is to be against Democracy.

[Mug]

21 hours ago, Rupe said:

Why don't you explain to me why your so proud of being a member of the EU, similar to how i explained my dislike of the EU then we can have a real conversation and weigh up are reasons. Maybe you should be proud to be British because I assume its where you live? Perhaps because you like the values of the place, and if you don't like the values of Britain then fine. But you fail to explain yourself. 

 

You say your homeland of Scotland was 'sane' enough to vote remain. If you would care to actually tell me why your implying it was not a sane decision to leave then we can actually have a conversation based on reason and not just vitriolic rhetoric about how bad Britain is. Rhetoric is fine if its based around reasons why you believe something, otherwise you just seem like naive fanatic. 

You will still be able to go to the Netherlands, its not hard to get visas, and each country in the EU will be able to decide how difficult they want to make UK citizens coming into their country be and I don't think there going to be particularly harsh on that front, at worst your going have to have apply for a visa.

 

The EU might not give us access to the EEA without the free movement of people, but to recognize why they might not give us access to the EEA is very important. The EEA would be better with the UK in it, not many would deny this but the EU doesn't want to give us this because they don't care about what is best, they care more about keeping the Union alive, the EU has demonstrated through more policies and treaties that what they are interested in is control, they don't want to lose that so they will make sure to keep people in by making the punishment for leaving harsh, and not consider what is actually best for everyone. This is not an organisation I want to be a part of, and to be pro EU as you are is to be against Democracy.

I think the main reason people think it's insane is that people voted on the basis of immigration which wasn't necessarily valid, instead politicians played on people's xenophobia. You can't honestly say that leave would have won if not for xenophobia particularly against eastern eurpoeans.

[Rupe]

2 hours ago, Mug said:

I think the main reason people think it's insane is that people voted on the basis of immigration which wasn't necessarily valid, instead politicians played on people's xenophobia. You can't honestly say that leave would have won if not for xenophobia particularly against eastern eurpoeans.

Its impossible to quantify how many people voted one way or the other for bad reasons unless somehow you could poll that, maybe someone has. But its not xenophobic to say that there will be more strain on the well fair system if we allow in as many unskilled workers as we currently are each year. That number needs to be reduced and the EU has made it clear they have no intention on allowing such action to be taken, Its irrelevant where they are coming from the fact is that there is problem and us being in the EU is causing that problem. 

When David Cameron attempted to reform the EU long time before the vote we put down our largest bargaining chip and that was are membership, the EU had a choice in that moment, and that was to show us that it was an organisation capable of reform but instead the EU gave us some really crap watered down changes. Article on it here -  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/19/eu-deal-what-david-cameron-asked-for-and-what-he-actually-got/ Thus if one needed anymore proof that we had no power in the EU there we are.

When people say that we want our democracy back that's not just hollow rhetoric. The EU is very much un-democratic.

[Misanthrope]

Well it's been a Little while and the currency seems to be bouncing back up. Major trade partners already said "Yeah N/M remain rhethoric we want new UK trade deals" and such.

 

The British sky seems to be holding up and has not yet fallen after all.

[Mug]

1 hour ago, Rupe said:

Its impossible to quantify how many people voted one way or the other for bad reasons unless somehow you could poll that, maybe someone has. But its not xenophobic to say that there will be more strain on the well fair system if we allow in as many unskilled workers as we currently are each year. That number needs to be reduced and the EU has made it clear they have no intention on allowing such action to be taken, Its irrelevant where they are coming from the fact is that there is problem and us being in the EU is causing that problem. 

When David Cameron attempted to reform the EU long time before the vote we put down our largest bargaining chip and that was are membership, the EU had a choice in that moment, and that was to show us that it was an organisation capable of reform but instead the EU gave us some really crap watered down changes. Article on it here -  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/19/eu-deal-what-david-cameron-asked-for-and-what-he-actually-got/ Thus if one needed anymore proof that we had no power in the EU there we are.

When people say that we want our democracy back that's not just hollow rhetoric. The EU is very much un-democratic.

No but saying that migrants bring loads of problems justifies people's dislike of migrants.  This is the issue, blurring the line between pure xenophobia and concerns with migration. 

 

12 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Well it's been a Little while and the currency seems to be bouncing back up. Major trade partners already said "Yeah N/M remain rhethoric we want new UK trade deals" and such.

 

The British sky seems to be holding up and has not yet fallen after all.

-We haven't exited the EU yet, give it ~2.5 years

-The pound is majority down. I bought €140 the other day and paid £130 for it. Had I bought it all before the referendum, I would have had €30 more. The pound has shrunk more too, the governor or the bank of England just announced measures to inject money. 

 

[Misanthrope]

2 minutes ago, Mug said:

-The pound is majority down. I bought €140 the other day and paid £130 for it. Had I bought it all before the referendum, I would have had €30 more. The pound has shrunk more too, the governor or the bank of England just announced measures to inject money. 

 

But it hasn't turned into an instant downward spiral into a great depression as many (probably not you to be fair) remainers predicted, the reason? Well you said it best:

 

Quote

We haven't exited the EU yet, give it ~2.5 years

 

Given enough time a proper transition is likely not to affect much if anything at all. No reason to rush and get it done immediately it is a huge change and requires proper planning.

[Misanthrope]

On ‎30‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 7:01 AM, ThatCoolBlueKidd said:

I don't really care, I feel european first and british second. I am more proud of my EU Citizenship than my British Citizenship because in I'm barely 1/4th British whereas the remainder of my nationality is Dutch/German/French and various other EU nations, I just happen to have a UK passport instead of those of other nations. I want the UK in the EU, and if not at least in the EEA so I can continue with my right of abode in the Netherlands. 

 

Yes, my generation fucked up by not voting. At least my homeland (Scotland) was sane enough to vote remain.

 

Not feeling kinship to your nation should have nothing to do with supporting Democracy though.

[Mug]

33 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

But it hasn't turned into an instant downward spiral into a great depression as many (probably not you to be fair) remainers predicted, the reason? Well you said it best:

 

 

Given enough time a proper transition is likely not to affect much if anything at all. No reason to rush and get it done immediately it is a huge change and requires proper planning.

I suppose we'll wait for the quarterly economic results

[Rupe]

27 minutes ago, Mug said:

No but saying that migrants bring loads of problems justifies people's dislike of migrants.  This is the issue, blurring the line between pure xenophobia and concerns with migration. 

This is not the problem of people on my side of the debate. This is the problem for people on your side, you need to be able to distinguish between Xenophobia and actual criticism of the EU immigration policy. I mean this really is not even a hard thing to do.

Were not saying migrants as people are the problem im sure lots of them are nice people, and no one intends to kick any of them out when we leave the EU. Were saying that it is unsustainable to keep this inflow of unskilled workers into our country. We are not closing are borders to everyone, people can apply and we will still have a large amount of people coming to live and work in the UK every year. But we will control that so we can have effective maintenance of our own country which is what the EU has taken from us.

3 minutes ago, Mug said:

I suppose we'll wait for the quarterly economic results

This is short sighted to me. Yes this has caused some economic problems in the short term (not as major as predicted FTSE 100 is stronger than pre referendum and FTSE 250 has gained loads of ground)  but we will be fine, and ultimately better off. Even if it takes 10 years time (don't think it will) we will have control back of our own country, which for many reasons that i have explained is a great thing.

[Hackentosher]

Brexit? More like regretsit

 

 

 

 

 

I'll see myself out. 

[rm -rf]

On 02/07/2016 at 3:26 AM, Hackentosher said:

Brexit? More like regretsit

 

 

 

 

 

I'll see myself out. 

That is amazing

[dalekphalm]

How ya'll #Brexit #Leave voters feeling now? Pretty much all of the Brexit "leaders" have dropped out, and are bailing on running for PM.

 

This was the biggest problem with Brexit. No plan. No leadership. They honestly didn't expect to win. There was no actual plan on what to do next. Nigel and Boris basically went "Yeah! Let's leave the EU! Fuck immigration! #MakeUKGreatAgain! ... oh, we won? Goodluckbye!"

[xentropa]

4 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

How ya'll #Brexit #Leave voters feeling now? Pretty much all of the Brexit "leaders" have dropped out, and are bailing on running for PM.

 

This was the biggest problem with Brexit. No plan. No leadership. They honestly didn't expect to win. There was no actual plan on what to do next. Nigel and Boris basically went "Yeah! Let's leave the EU! Fuck immigration! #MakeUKGreatAgain! ... oh, we won? Goodluckbye!"

They wanted Cameron to initiate article 50 and take the heat for any immediate economic fallout effects.  Now that he's quit they don't want to be responsible for it.

[dalekphalm]

3 minutes ago, xentropa said:

They wanted Cameron to initiate article 50 and take the heat for any immediate economic fallout effects.  Now that he's quit they don't want to be responsible for it.

Why would Cameron do it though? That was a terrible plan if so. Cameron was staunch "Remain". If people voted to leave, then they essentially voted that they didn't want him anymore.

[xentropa]

I agree Cameron shouldnt have.

 

UKIP wanted him as a scapegoat.  They knew leaving EU would have immediate temporary negative effects that they wanted to happen on Cameron's watch.  Cameron wasnt going to have that so he quit.

 

Now that the scapegoat is gone UKIP has been hesitant to step up to the plate.