Intel wants USB-C to replace the headphone jack

[LAwLz]

So let's be completely unbiased here.

 

Benefits:

• Takes up less space in the phone/laptop/whatever.
• Consistency. One pair of headphones will sound the same no matter which phone you plug them into.
• No interference. It's digital so it either works perfectly, or not at all.
• Might enable extra functionality in the future (the only thing I can think of would be stereo mics but who knows).

 

Drawbacks:

• Breaks compatibility. You will need an adapter (which will need to be an active adapter, which will reduce quality) if you want to use your current headphones.
• Cost will increase since you now need a DAC/amp in each pair of headphones, plus the one inside your phone, instead of just having one in your phone. So cheap headphones/earbuds might be more expensive AND sound worse than they currently do. This also means there are more things that might break.
• Driver issues. Each pair of headphones will now need a driver to be installed, and that driver might not exist for certain platforms (Apple headphones no longer works on Android phones and vice versa). Drivers can also be buggy/outdated. Imagine buying a pair of 1000 dollar headphones back in 2005 and they worked great in Windows XP, but the manufacturer didn't make any drivers for Vista (maybe they went bankrupt) and above so now they they are just a 1000 dollar paperweight.
• Harder to plug in and position (going from circular to square).
• Possibility of DRM being introduced (again, Apple headphones only working on Apple devices, Samsung headphones only working on Samsung devices etc, or even things like certain songs only working with certain headphones, like a new Dr Dre album only working with Beats headphones for example).
• If your cable breaks slightly then you will not get any sound at all. The cable for my K702 broke fairly recently but I was managed to continue using them by holding the cable in a certain position with some tape. That would most likely not work with a digital connector.
• It takes up more space inside the peripheral. It will not be any issue for headphones, but for things like earbuds it might become a (small) problem. There are really small DACs which weigh next to nothing so it is not a big issue, but it is a drawback.

 

Unknowns or other things to think about:

• Which one is more durable?
• Which one uses more power?
• Headphones might share the connector you use for charging and file transfers (so you might not be able to listen to music and charge/transfer files at the same time). This is not inherently an issue of USB type C, but it is something I can see lots of phone manufacturers doing. It is less of an issue on desktops and laptops though.
• Saw someone mention Thunderbolt. We are not talking about Thunderbolt here, because the Thunderbolt controllers are enormous (10.7 x 10.7mm, so bigger than the 3.5mm headphone jack by itself), expensive and require active cables. Replacing 3.5mm headphone jacks with Thunderbolt makes even less sense than replacing them with USB-C.

 

Did I miss anything? I don't think it makes sense going to USB-C for audio. The benefits are very, very small compared to the drawbacks.

[Shahnewaz]

On 2016-04-27 at 10:40 AM, GoodBytes said:

I think Intel should focus on fixing their graphics card drivers, before pushing things it has no business into.

This made my day. Thank you.

 

Back on topic, what is the biggest reason to replace the 3.5mm jack? If it's all for thinness, then sod off please.

39 minutes ago, Fooshi said:

NO

STOP 

LEARN

DO NOT REPEAT HISTORY

FUCKING RETARDS

I remember this. What a load of bull that was. Imagine the pain of hunting a pair of earphones that work with it. And now for every phone you own.

[79wjd]

19 minutes ago, Stuff_ said:

But why do I need to buy that when it works great as I am using it? 

Why did we need smartphones? Plain old dumb phones worked great when they were the standard too. 

19 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

So let's be completely unbiased here.

 

Benefits:

• Takes up less space in the phone/laptop/whatever.
• Consistency. One pair of headphones will sound the same no matter which phone you plug them into.
• No interference. It's digital so it either works perfectly, or not at all.
• Might enable extra functionality in the future (the only thing I can think of would be stereo mics but who knows).

 

Drawbacks:

• Breaks compatibility. You will need an adapter (which will need to be an active adapter, which will reduce quality) if you want to use your current headphones.
• Cost will increase since you now need a DAC/amp in each pair of headphones, plus the one inside your phone, instead of just having one in your phone. So cheap headphones/earbuds might be more expensive AND sound worse than they currently do. This also means there are more things that might break.
• Driver issues. Each pair of headphones will now need a driver to be installed, and that driver might not exist for certain platforms (Apple headphones no longer works on Android phones and vice versa). Drivers can also be buggy/outdated. Imagine buying a pair of 1000 dollar headphones back in 2005 and they worked great in Windows XP, but the manufacturer didn't make any drivers for Vista (maybe they went bankrupt) and above so now they they are just a 1000 dollar paperweight.
• Harder to plug in and position (going from circular to square).
• Possibility of DRM being introduced (again, Apple headphones only working on Apple devices, Samsung headphones only working on Samsung devices etc, or even things like certain songs only working with certain headphones, like a new Dr Dre album only working with Beats headphones for example).
• If your cable breaks slightly then you will not get any sound at all. The cable for my K702 broke fairly recently but I was managed to continue using them by holding the cable in a certain position with some tape. That would most likely not work with a digital connector.
• It takes up more space inside the peripheral. It will not be any issue for headphones, but for things like earbuds it might become a (small) problem. There are really small DACs which weigh next to nothing so it is not a big issue, but it is a drawback.

 

Unknowns or other things to think about:

• Which one is more durable?
• Which one uses more power?
• Headphones might share the connector you use for charging and file transfers (so you might not be able to listen to music and charge/transfer files at the same time). This is not inherently an issue of USB type C, but it is something I can see lots of phone manufacturers doing. It is less of an issue on desktops and laptops though.
• Saw someone mention Thunderbolt. We are not talking about Thunderbolt here, because the Thunderbolt controllers are enormous (10.7 x 10.7mm, so bigger than the 3.5mm headphone jack by itself), expensive and require active cables. Replacing 3.5mm headphone jacks with Thunderbolt makes even less sense than replacing them with USB-C.

 

Did I miss anything? I don't think it makes sense going to USB-C for audio. The benefits are very, very small compared to the drawbacks.

Cost: I don't think that's all that much of an issue tbh. Most people fall into one of two categories: those who use the headphones included with the device and/or buy the cheapest crap they can find (and don't care much about the quality), and those who are willing to pay for a good pair of headphones. The former won't really be affected as a cheap DAC isn't really expensive (although they will likely end up with a worse sounding headphone at the end of the day). And those who pay for a good pair of headphones will benefit since they won't be dependant on the quality of the DAC in the device and/or interference. 

 

Drivers: Wouldn't there likely be a standardized driver ensuring basic support (maybe not for additional features, but at least for audio). 

 

DRM: As it is, there are already iOS/Android specific headphone variants with certain models that allow for playback control (and that don't work on the other OS). 

 

 

I see less of a benefit for listening to music (for most people), but, it would be beneficial for those who have high end headphones. If it means only a single connector (and the intention is to use USB-C rather than Bluetooth), then I don't see it as all that great in the end, but if it means adding a second connector that can have other uses as well or encouraging the adoption and advancement of bluetooth, then I don't think it's necessarily bad. Sure, it will be painful at first since everyone will need new headphones/an adapter, but in the long term having multiple USB connectors could be handy, and the adoption of any new standard is always going to be painful (hell, USB-C is going to be a hard standard to adopt as it doesn't have backwards compatibility with any peripherals/USB-devices from the past 20 years). 

[LAwLz]

23 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Cost: I don't think that's all that much of an issue tbh. Most people fall into one of two categories: those who use the headphones included with the device and/or buy the cheapest crap they can find (and don't care much about the quality), and those who are willing to pay for a good pair of headphones. The former won't really be affected as a cheap DAC isn't really expensive (although they will likely end up with a worse sounding headphone at the end of the day). And those who pay for a good pair of headphones will benefit since they won't be dependant on the quality of the DAC in the device and/or interference. 

Well it will be an issue to some degree. Like you said, people who buy cheap things will end up with worse sounding devices that they currently got.

I can see manufacturers making multiple versions of the same headphones as well, but with different DACs in them. You might get the regular version and the "premium" version, where the only difference is that the regular version has a worse DAC. At the end of the day, it will be more expensive since you will need more components. How much of that will be passed down to the4 consumers remains to be seen (my guess is all of it and some more).

 

27 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Drivers: Wouldn't there likely be a standardized driver ensuring basic support (maybe not for additional features, but at least for audio). 

Maybe, but it's not certain.

Locking consumers into your "eco-system" has gotten incredibly popular in the last decade so I wouldn't be surprised if for example Apple and Samsung both went their own separate ways.

 

32 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

DRM: As it is, there are already iOS/Android specific headphone variants with certain models that allow for playback control (and that don't work on the other OS). 

That has nothing to do with DRM. It's just that we have two different standards for how to wire the 3.5mm connector (OMTP and CTIA), and Apple uses different signaling than everyone else to indicate buttons being pushed. Playback controls is a very minor issue compared to the kind of lock-down they can do with the USB DRM as well.

 

 

1 hour ago, djdwosk97 said:

I see less of a benefit for listening to music (for most people), but, it would be beneficial for those who have high end headphones. If it means only a single connector (and the intention is to use USB-C rather than Bluetooth), then I don't see it as all that great in the end, but if it means adding a second connector that can have other uses as well or encouraging the adoption and advancement of bluetooth, then I don't think it's necessarily bad. Sure, it will be painful at first since everyone will need new headphones/an adapter, but in the long term having multiple USB connectors could be handy, and the adoption of any new standard is always going to be painful (hell, USB-C is going to be a hard standard to adopt as it doesn't have backwards compatibility with any peripherals/USB-devices from the past 20 years). 

This won't have any impact on Bluetooth headphones though, unless USB type C turns out to be so bad for headphones that people start looking into Bluetooth devices. But then we are going backwards in progress, which is terrible.

[Godlygamer23]

On 4/27/2016 at 10:22 AM, djdwosk97 said:

Except that's not true at all. No high end home theater/stereo system uses analog audio for a reason.

Ultimately, everything is analog coming out of a speaker. Any speaker. We are analog-based creatures. Displays are also both analog and digital because of this very thing - they emit analog information to us which we perceive with our eyes which are analog sensors. To say that "no high end home theater/stereo system uses analog audio" is incorrect as it's ultimately analog. It simply converts it from digital to analog.

[potoooooooo]

If phones started coming with TWO USB C ports i'd be all for it

 

Otherwise it's a bit limiting

[WelshDdraig]

4 hours ago, Fooshi said:

 

NO

 

STOP 

 

LEARN

 

DO NOT REPEAT HISTORY

 

FUCKING RETARDS

I actually had one of them and I loved it... (at the time, looking back at it now, it was a terrible idea)

[Phoenix721]

Would just screw old users.

[JoeCoke]

Main reason: Selling lots of adapters.

[Trik'Stari]

Fine, if they put 2 USB-C ports on there so we can charge and play at the same time.

[mach]

Plain retarded idea.

You will need dac and amp in your phone for the speakers anyway, why fucking get another one on your earphone? Fucking morons. People who care about sound quality should not do their precise listening on fucking phones anyway. 

This is so bad to the environment, because of the manufacturing of extra dac, amp, adaptor and new pairs of headphone people forced to buy to fit their goddamn new phone. Think of all the silicon, copper, plastic and energy wasted because of these "tech genius" attempting to "make some change". 

Stupid motherfuckers.

Think of your headphones or phones getting old and worn, the good old 3.5 jack has good tolerance to wonky connection because it's fucking analog. But a digital one? one gentle shake and the connection is lost. You then need to unPlug and plug in again for the handshake. People who have used external dac on phones know what I mean. 

Oh wait, thats exactly their plan. They just want you to buy more new stuff. They sincerely hope your phone or headphone break every single fucking day so they can grab all of your money

[iamdarkyoshi]

I think we should have made a standard that impliments two different jacks into one, like the USB/ESATA connectors on laptops.

[AU_Gundam]

On 4/27/2016 at 10:22 PM, gFrenken97 said:

I can see how manufacturers want to get rid of it because the 3,5mm audio jack takes up a lot of space on the already tiny motherboard.

The 3.5mm jack has been around since 1964, I think it's time for a change.

 

 

Not all change is good and you'd already get pushback from the audio companies. Analog is not wrong by nature, especially for something like audio.

Furthermore, it's complete and utter BS to have everything attached to one single port. Unless they focus on improving battery life to such a drastic extent that we get our phones working off of one charge for 3+ days, denying us the ability to use peripherals while charging would be a setback, not a feature.

[Lays]

On 4/27/2016 at 7:22 AM, djdwosk97 said:

Except that's not true at all. No high end home theater/stereo system uses analog audio for a reason. On a mobile device it's generally not as big a deal due to the quality of the headphones generally being used and the fact that interference isn't as big of a concern (although it still needs to be accommodated for). 

 

Not to mention a USB-C replacement would be able to handle future functionality. Plus I really want the Bluetooth standard to be pushed forward as it still not where it should be.

 

ALL audio systems that play music use analog audio at some point, you do realize that right? We cannot hear digital audio signals.  The digital signal HAS to be changed into an analog signal somewhere down the chain, before it can be replayed as music through the speakers.

On 4/27/2016 at 7:39 AM, Technic77 said:

Except the fact that professional recording studios use analog TRS 1/4" and XLR for most of their connections. You won't find a studio without analog audio somewhere in the chain. There's a reason for that.

Exactly. Like I said above, all audio in any type of "musical reproduction" has to be converted into analog at some point for us to hear it.

 

Changing to having a digital USB-C connector be able to send audio, means we still have to have a DAC right after it to convert it so we can hear it. So in the end, it doesn't really solve anything at all lol. I see no use for it, sure we could free up space on the mobo to not have a DAC & amp system on the board, but then we still need a DAC & amp inside our headphones, or on our desk.

[unsubscribed]

16 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Agreed - in most cases, we simply lost the SD-Card slot, and got the same size of internal storage - mostly because Apple wants to sell you iCloud subscriptions.

You're increasing the cost of the headphones themselves, and the phone will not drop in cost in a comparable way. Remember, this will NOT get rid of the DAC already on the phone - unless we think phone makers will ditch the internal speakers? Yeah - not gonna happen - especially since phone makers have been making a push to make the internal speakers better and better on phones.

 

So all we're losing on the phone is a 3.5mm jack. Yet the headphones now has to have a DAC. I'm fairly sure a DAC costs more than a 3.5mm jack.

 

This will make headphones bigger, heavier, bulker, and cost more. This will also make the headphones consume more power, which will in turn affect the battery life of the phone (Remember, the phone still has it's internal DAC, so now there are 2 DAC's in the equation).

 

I for one will continue to buy phones with 3.5mm jacks on them for my foreseeable future purchases.

You are not wrong thinking logically. You might be wrong in long run though. Marketing and R&D works in mysterious ways. If they really want to push USB 3.1, if they will have manufacturer's support and if adoption in general will be positive it will happen. Granted first on high end and for enthusiast market just like VR but it will sooner or later trickle down the value chain.

Everyone wants fancy features on everything. There is only so much you can advertise on headphones for average user. Now you can add more oomph as USB provides more power, you can add RGB controls and other features, better integration between headphones and your device etc. Who doesn't want that (once again, think about general consumer, not targeted audience)?

I myself use 3.5mm jack and have no issues with that but just like everything - sooner or later it will need to be overhauled.

[Misanthrope]

If I'm spending extra on usb c headphones why not fucking Bluetooth instead? 

[xAcid9]

Can't wait to buy China made adapters/splitter that will zap yourself. Much improvement.

[dmegatool]

I get that Type C would have some drawbacks but you guys talk like 3.5mm is the best thing ever made. That connector suck ass.

• I always need to make sure it's all the way in.
• If I move, sound is distorted as the connector spin or get pulled a little bit.
• Controls are defined on the plug itself and can't be made to work with iPhone and Android. 

It's rare that I listen and charge at the same time. I guess they could make the charger cable with a female port to daisy chain. The only drawback that I see is the DAC and cost... which will be negligible once it's become so common... As if it's not already. 

 

But if we're saying Type C is not the way to go, how would you do things ? That 3.5mm jack needs to die. 

[Misanthrope]

15 minutes ago, dmegatool said:

I get that Type C would have some drawbacks but you guys talk like 3.5mm is the best thing ever made. That connector suck ass.

• I always need to make sure it's all the way in.
• If I move, sound is distorted as the connector spin or get pulled a little bit.
• Controls are defined on the plug itself and can't be made to work with iPhone and Android. 

It's rare that I listen and charge at the same time. I guess they could make the charger cable with a female port to daisy chain. The only drawback that I see is the DAC and cost... which will be negligible once it's become so common... As if it's not already. 

 

But if we're saying Type C is not the way to go, how would you do things ? That 3.5mm jack needs to die. 

Cost isn't an issue for the devices, but It is for the headsets. If anything just the fact it's not a widespread form factor. Also while usb might be cheap it's not dirt cheap as 3.5

[xAcid9]

15 minutes ago, dmegatool said:

I get that Type C would have some drawbacks but you guys talk like 3.5mm is the best thing ever made. That connector suck ass.

• I always need to make sure it's all the way in.
• If I move, sound is distorted as the connector spin or get pulled a little bit.

Does that mean you only need to push Type C connector half way for it to work?

[dmegatool]

36 minutes ago, xAcid9 said:

Does that mean you only need to push Type C connector half way for it to work?

No. But it either works or not. There's no ambiguity about it. When I plug my phone to charge it, I don't need to check if it works. With 3.5mm, I often need to push again on the plug if I ever move/touch it. 

[79wjd]

3 hours ago, Lays said:

 

ALL audio systems that play music use analog audio at some point, you do realize that right? We cannot hear digital audio signals.  The digital signal HAS to be changed into an analog signal somewhere down the chain, before it can be replayed as music through the speakers.

Exactly. Like I said above, all audio in any type of "musical reproduction" has to be converted into analog at some point for us to hear it.

 

Changing to having a digital USB-C connector be able to send audio, means we still have to have a DAC right after it to convert it so we can hear it. So in the end, it doesn't really solve anything at all lol. I see no use for it, sure we could free up space on the mobo to not have a DAC & amp system on the board, but then we still need a DAC & amp inside our headphones, or on our desk.

 

On April 28, 2016 at 9:21 PM, djdwosk97 said:

I should have been more clear. Audio, naturally, needs to be analog at some point, but in a theater/stereo that generally doesn't happen until the processor as it doesn't make sense for their to be professional grade audio circuitry in the average blu ray player, so it's more effective to just let the processor handle everything that way you can get as high or low quality unit as you want. By allowing digital out from a phone you now have more control and less time for interference to become an issue. 

 

Bluetooth th audio still doesn't quite sound the same, connectivity can occasionally be temperamental, and there is a lack of higher end headphones/IEMs.

 

[dalekphalm]

1 hour ago, dmegatool said:

No. But it either works or not. There's no ambiguity about it. When I plug my phone to charge it, I don't need to check if it works. With 3.5mm, I often need to push again on the plug if I ever move/touch it. 

I don't think I've ever experienced this with a 3.5mm jack in my entire life. Are you sure your connector or port wasn't broken? I've also never had issues with audio distortion when spinning the connector in the socket, while playing music at the same time.

 

Honestly sounds like faulty or cheap equipment?

 

I'm not dismissing your claims. I believe that these things happened to you. I just do not believe that they are common or normal occurrences. All my 3.5mm jacks have a very satisfying "snap" when they fit into place, that I can both audibly hear, and feel, and I know it's nice and secure.

[handymanshandle]

On 4/27/2016 at 9:22 AM, gFrenken97 said:

I can see how manufacturers want to get rid of it because the 3,5mm audio jack takes up a lot of space on the already tiny motherboard.

The 3.5mm jack has been around since 1964, I think it's time for a change.

 

Phones don't need to get thinner, they need to get stronger, last longer and perform better.

 

I disagree in part because you couldn't charge your phone and listen music unless you had two usb-c ports or an adapter to give you two of those both not ideal and would take up more space.

[handymanshandle]

3 hours ago, dmegatool said:

I get that Type C would have some drawbacks but you guys talk like 3.5mm is the best thing ever made. That connector suck ass.

• I always need to make sure it's all the way in.
• If I move, sound is distorted as the connector spin or get pulled a little bit.
• Controls are defined on the plug itself and can't be made to work with iPhone and Android. 

It's rare that I listen and charge at the same time. I guess they could make the charger cable with a female port to daisy chain. The only drawback that I see is the DAC and cost... which will be negligible once it's become so common... As if it's not already. 

 

But if we're saying Type C is not the way to go, how would you do things ? That 3.5mm jack needs to die. 

No, and no. 

In-line controls are usually no problem.

I've never had that problem with 3.5mm jacks (you've gotta give a decent little tug (at least with the jack on my phone.))