NVIDIA To Devs: Compute/Graphics Toggle Is A Heavyweight Switch

[Notional]

This, it requires writing essentially two executables.

 

Why would it need that?

 

We already officially know that Ashes of the Singularity uses vendor specific code paths for AMD and NVidia. Honestly I believe most PC games do this for optimal efficiency.

[MageTank]

and AMD tells the truth, because what? reasons .. right?!?!

no, I don't blindly trust MS' words and neither AMD's - that's the difference between us

 

and yet .. in MicroSoft own words, DX12 has nothing to do with MANTLE - at all !!!!! ; 

 

this is a lie - I would like you to source this from AMD's or MS' "mouths" directly and not from rumor mills

 

For a man who "does not trust MS or AMD's words" you sure ask for them as proof, and even use them in your arguments. 

 

Let's humor your "facts", shall we? This mysterious "Directx 11.x" you keep using in your crusade is simply DX 11.2, but was closer to bare metal, and had some features that would be made available in DX12. Key word is "some". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX#DirectX_11

 

 

 

DirectX 11.X is a superset of DirectX 11.2 running on the Xbox One.^[34] It actually includes some features, such as draw bundles, that were later announced as part of DirectX 12

 

 

 

DirectX 12 was announced by Microsoft on March 20, at GDC 2014 and was officially launched alongside Windows 10 on July 29, 2015. DirectX 12 APIs are also expected to feature on the Xbox One and Windows Phone.^[37] The previous version of DirectX (DirectX 11.X) that runs on the Xbox One already includes a subset of the features in DirectX 12,^[38] Microsoft has stated that the performance improvements of DirectX 12 on the Xbox One will not be as substantial as that on the PC

From this, we can conclude that MS managed to reduce overhead on the Xbox One without the help of Mantle, that much is clear. However, the context has been Async Compute, and that is where we shall continue to fight. 

 

When it comes to arguing, i am a huge fan of using peoples words against them. So, lets use your original source, the one that damned my fate, made me wrong, and made me admit i was wrong in this very thread. https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn899217%28v=vs.85%29.aspx?f=255&MSPPError=-2147217396#asynchronous_compute_and_graphics_example

 

Oh look, a documented Directx 12 feature (Remember, you called it that earlier). You said it was a part of DX12. Funny, this exact same feature was also available in Mantle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle_(API)#GPU-bound_scenarios

 

 

• Asynchronous compute queue for overlapping of compute and graphics workloads

OH NO, WHAT HAVE I DONE? I'VE DISTURBED THE NATURAL ORDER OF THINGS. Have I, the mortal known as Mage Tankington III, used the very sword he was stabbed with, against his attacker? Eh, i dunno. Probably. Don't want any blood on my own cool looking sword, blood is gross. 

 

So, we have a Mantle exclusive (at the time) feature, that somehow made its way into DirectX 12. Funny, that's probably just an odd circumstance, don't you think? OH WAIT. You said it yourself, MS reached out to AMD to build specific hardware for their consoles. This would mean MS had to know that GCN would take advantage of Async Compute in the future, right? Because Mantle was already well documented to work with GCN 1.0, and Async Compute was a listed feature even back then. That would mean they specifically requested GCN 1.1 (ACE capable) hardware back then on purpose! Now, they add the exact same "feature" (remember, you called it a feature, not me) to DirectX 12, which means that now, when Xbox One gets DX12 (it will, already said so by Phil Spencer) they will also benefit from it. 

 

Huh. Direct X dipped into Mantles bag of tricks. Exactly like i stated from the get go. Guess zMeul will have to do what i did earlier, and admit he was wrong like a good man should. I'll wait for your apology, and edits to your previous post like i did before. After all, we respect each other, right?

[MageTank]

On a scale of Kotaku Journalism to Fast Food Workers, how lazy are they

Well, they absolutely refuse to document their work, and when instructed to port something, they whine and drag their feet. So wherever that fits in, that is where they sit. 

 

Sorry for the double post BTW, you posted this during my long wall of text, and i did not notice, but i also did not want to just ignore you.

[Guest Kloaked]

Well, they absolutely refuse to document their work, and when instructed to port something, they whine and drag their feet. So wherever that fits in, that is where they sit.

 

Kek. I hope when I get of 'programmer' status that I'm not as lazy.

Sorry for the double post BTW, you posted this during my long wall of text, and i did not notice, but i also did not want to just ignore you.

I do that all the time m8, ha.

[zMeul]

Oh look, a documented Directx 12 feature (Remember, you called it that earlier). You said it was a part of DX12. Funny, this exact same feature was also available in Mantle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle_(API)#GPU-bound_scenarios

OH NO, WHAT HAVE I DONE? I'VE DISTURBED THE NATURAL ORDER OF THINGS. Have I, the mortal known as Mage Tankington III, used the very sword he was stabbed with, against his attacker? Eh, i dunno. Probably. Don't want any blood on my own cool looking sword, blood is gross.

MS and SONY needed specific HW and AMD built it for them

since XB1 and PS4 are on very similar hardware, AMD's, Async Compute is also available on PS4 - and yet, AMD hasn't said a peep in relation to SONY's low level API, GNM

updated my post with the relevant links; as for this "mysterious DX11.X", as you call it, here: https://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/DirectX-Developer-Blog/DirectX-Evolving-Microsoft-s-Graphics-Platform GDC 2014 DX12 presentation where AMD, Intel, nVidia and Qualcom show their involvement in DX12 development

cut the crap, mate!

[Notional]

I'm just gonna add a little correction. ACE means Asynchronous Compute Engine, which is part of the GCN architecture, similar to NVidia's CUDA cores. So only AMD has ACE's. Asynchronous Compute is a separate thing (that ACE units are designed to do very well).

[MageTank]

MS and SONY needed specific HW and AMD built it for them

since XB1 and PS4 are on very similar hardware, AMD's, Async Compute is also available on PS4 - and yet, AMD hasn't said a peep in relation to SONY's low level API, GNM

updated my post with the relevant links; as for this "mysterious DX11.X", as you call it, here: https://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/DirectX-Developer-Blog/DirectX-Evolving-Microsoft-s-Graphics-Platform

cut the crap, mate!

Notice how you no longer attacked the "DirectX 12 is using things from Mantle" segment of my post? I sure did. Your argument against me has nothing to do with Sony. You called me a liar when i said DirectX 12 dipped into Mantle's bag of tricks. I proved i was not lying. Now, where is my apology?

[zMeul]

Notice how you no longer attacked the "DirectX 12 is using things from Mantle" segment of my post? I sure did. Your argument against me has nothing to do with Sony. You called me a liar when i said DirectX 12 dipped into Mantle's bag of tricks. I proved i was not lying. Now, where is my apology?

what!? I called AMD a liar, not you - let's not make this personal, shall we

my argument against MANTLE has everything to do with SONY since GNM is the grandfather of MANTLE; and all share similarities because DX11.X, MANTLE and GNM run exclusively on AMD hardware

[MageTank]

what!? I called AMD a liar, not you - let's not make this personal, shall we

my argument against MANTLE has everything to do with SONY since GNM is the grandfather of MANTLE; and all share similarities because DX11.X, MANTLE and GNM run exclusively on AMD hardware

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/461881-nvidia-to-devs-computegraphics-toggle-is-a-heavyweight-switch/?p=6198884

 

Take a look at this. You bolded the following from my post: 

 

No, read that wall of text again. I said it was not a DX12 feature (in that it was not listed on the mandatory or optional feature lists) and that it was made possible by DX12, due to the bits that came from Mantle.

 

Then you said: 

 

this is a lie - I would like you to source this from AMD's or MS' "mouths" directly and not from rumor mills

 

That was posted directly under the bolded bits. I said that bolded sentence, not MS or AMD. You said it was a lie. Therefore, you called me a liar. I showed you that Mantle had Async Compute listed as a feature. You told me yourself that Async Compute is a listed feature of DX12. Therefore, MS took something from AMD's bag of tricks, and used it. Again, Sony has nothing to do with you calling me a liar. Now is the part where you redact your previous statements on me being a liar, and issue a formal apology like i gave you. We are adults here, are we not?

[zMeul]

...

I did not call you a liar, the information you were fed and chose to believe it is the lie

[MageTank]

I did not call you a liar, the information you were fed and chose to believe it is the lie

So you have proof of the contrary? I've given you sources to my information. You've given me nothing to prove MS did not see Async Compute being used in Mantle, and decided they would use it too. Prove to me that i am wrong. If you say Sony again, you automatically lose.

[zMeul]

You've given me nothing to prove MS did not see Async Compute being used in Mantle, and decided they would use it too. Prove to me that i am wrong. If you say Sony again, you automatically lose.

let's look at the timeline, shall we?

November 2013 - SONY launches PS4 with GNM low level API

November 2013 - MS launches XB1 with DX11.X low level API

February 2014 - AMD launches MANTLE

 

now, i shall put a huge dent in your missguided assumption: Maxwell2 does Async Compute, doesn't do it well because of the scheduler, but it is capable - how would you explain that? maybe AMD designed nVidia's products as well  :lol:

 

and with this, we're done here; it was never a competition ..

[MageTank]

let's look at the timeline, shall we?

November 2013 - SONY launches PS4 with GNM low level API

November 2013 - MS launches XB1 with DX11.X low level API

February 2014 - AMD launches MANTLE

and with this, we're done here; it was never a competition ..

Are those sources? I just see you posting numbers with no significance again. You have yet to prove that MS was aware of Async Compute before Mantle brought it to daylight in their feature list. Until you do that, this is not over. I know you want to be like @patrickjp93, but at least he has the wits to fortify his statements when he fails to provide sources.

[bcredeur97]

This is literally my first time seeing this term.

Vademecum, the Association Guide for Via Francigena, an ancient road between Rome and Canterbury

 

 

 

wait, wat..

 

on topic... me? I'm just waiting with my money in my pocket. If I like what I see, I buy. If not, I buy something else. Your move Nvidia...

[Notional]

@MageTank & @zMeul Why are you discussing this? Both consoles are made with AMD GCN cards, which are built for async compute/shaders. It's literally in the actual architecture via the ACE's. Of course the low level API's in those consoles supports async compute/shaders, because they have to, as the hardware is built for it. Of course AMD has something to do with that. Should not come as a surprise.

 

AMD just brought it to PC via Mantle, because Sony doesn't make PC graphics API's, and Microsoft couldn't be bothered. Especially as NVidia is useless at it.

 

Did you guys know that Watch Dogs might have asynchronous shaders? In the settingsfile, there is a setting called AllowAsynchShaderLoading="1". I wonder if it actually works, or is a relic from the console versions.

[MageTank]

@MageTank & @zMeul Why are you discussing this? Both consoles are made with AMD GCN cards, which are built for async compute/shaders. It's literally in the actual architecture via the ACE's. Of course the low level API's in those consoles supports async compute/shaders, because they have to, as the hardware is built for it. Of course AMD has something to do with that. Should not come as a surprise.

 

AMD just brought it to PC via Mantle, because Sony doesn't make PC graphics API's, and Microsoft couldn't be bothered. Especially as NVidia is useless at it.

 

Did you guys know that Watch Dogs might have asynchronous shaders? In the settingsfile, there is a setting called AllowAsynchShaderLoading="1". I wonder if it actually works, or is a relic from the console versions.

The argument is simplified as this: I think DX12 took inspiration for certain features from Mantle, He believes they did not. That is it.

[Notional]

The argument is simplified as this: I think DX12 took inspiration for certain features from Mantle, He believes they did not. That is it.

 

Considering Microsoft has worked with AMD for many years and has had to write a low level API specifically for GCN/ACE's, of course they get inspired by each other. But we have no way of confirming who did what and when, nor does it matter. Mantle was the best performing API on PC when it came out, and delivered high end features like extreme amounts of draw calls and async compute.

As for Vulkan, Microsoft is a member of Khronos too, so they where there to accept the implementation of Mantle into OpenGL Next too. It's safe to assume all these API's influence each other.

[MageTank]

Considering Microsoft has worked with AMD for many years and has had to write a low level API specifically for GCN/ACE's, of course they get inspired by each other. But we have no way of confirming who did what and when, nor does it matter. Mantle was the best performing API on PC when it came out, and delivered high end features like extreme amounts of draw calls and async compute.

As for Vulkan, Microsoft is a member of Khronos too, so they where there to accept the implementation of Mantle into OpenGL Next too. It's safe to assume all these API's influence each other.

Yeah, i brought that very same fact up too, but it was ignored. Either way, i think its settled. You already said it, nobody will be able to prove who did what, but it still does not matter. Mantle did what it was designed to do, and Directx 12 and Vulkan are its spiritual successors as i said earlier. @zMeul will just have to save his bitter hatred for AMD for another time. 

[Prysin]

Yeah, i brought that very same fact up too, but it was ignored. Either way, i think its settled. You already said it, nobody will be able to prove who did what, but it still does not matter. Mantle did what it was designed to do, and Directx 12 and Vulkan are its spiritual successors as i said earlier. @zMeul will just have to save his bitter hatred for AMD for another time.

This is why we need a dislike button!!!!

So we can downvote bullshit into oblivion and hide it from the eyes of the masses

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

This is why we need a dislike button!!!!

So we can downvote bullshit into oblivion and hide it from the eyes of the masses

 

Let me just remind everyone again, 

 

"I will always hate AMD with every fiber in my body... I will make them pay..." 

 

While seeking revenge, dig two graves - one for yourself.

[don_svetlio]

let's look at the timeline, shall we?

November 2013 - SONY launches PS4 with GNM low level API

November 2013 - MS launches XB1 with DX11.X low level API

February 2014 - AMD launches MANTLE

 

now, i shall put a huge dent in your missguided assumption: Maxwell2 does Async Compute, doesn't do it well because of the scheduler, but it is capable - how would you explain that? maybe AMD designed nVidia's products as well  :lol:

 

and with this, we're done here; it was never a competition ..

I am pretty sure mantle existed from 2013 onward

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle_%28API%29

As for GM20* - you do realise that Nvidia spent about a month lying, accusing devs of foul play, accusing anyone they could until finally admitting their hardware is lesser than AMD's 2013 cards, or have you been living under Nvidia's HQ for the past several months?

 

[Zah]

I am pretty sure mantle existed from 2013 onward

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle_%28API%29

As for GM20* - you do realise that Nvidia spent about a month lying, accusing devs of foul play, accusing anyone they could until finally admitting their hardware is lesser than AMD's 2013 cards, or have you been living under Nvidia's HQ for the past several months?

 

Lesser is completely dependent on what is performed, although yes, they tended to not want to admit something was wrong when it was pointed out.

[bogus]

I did not call you a liar, the information you were fed and chose to believe it is the lie

Where are the sources? You're dodging my posts pretty hard lol

 

You can't call people and companys liars and get a free pass. 

[zMeul]

I am pretty sure mantle existed from 2013 onward

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle_(API)

As for GM20* - you do realise that Nvidia spent about a month lying, accusing devs of foul play, accusing anyone they could until finally admitting their hardware is lesser than AMD's 2013 cards, or have you been living under Nvidia's HQ for the past several months?

"existed" yes, finished? never

 

as for nVidia - you confuse Maxwell2 ability for Async Compute with the scheduling; scheduling Maxwell2 has a problem with

 

from OP:

• Don’t toggle between compute and graphics on the same command queue more than absolutely necessary
• This is still a heavyweight switch to make

---

@MageTank

putting another dent in your erroneous assumption:

http://support.amd.com/en-us/search/faq/207

http://support.amd.com/en-us/search/faq/208

[Briggsy]

I saw someone wrongly post a few pages back that that AMDs current hardware wasn't fully dx12 compatible. Gcn1.1 and 1.2 are fully dx12_0 compatible, they couldn't be more compatible. They don't support 12_1 features however. Only gameworks titles on pc will ever support 12_1 features, that's almost a guarantee.

They only gpu company to fully support the main level of dx12 is AMD. Seems like people just can't get this fact through their skull.