Steve Wozniak: Edward Snowden is 'a hero to me'

[AlwaysFSX]

Then would you think the US in this day and age would execute someone for espionage charges that low level?

 

In fact with ~a minute of research I found out the charges he faced didn't even carry the possibility of capital punishment. 

If you divulged some details of a secret pet project, you'd "disappear" too.

[mr moose]

No need to resort to sad attacks like that. :'D

Been here all my life.

 

I don't live in the states, but I am happy to tell you all your problems.

[Embattled]

If you divulged some details of a secret pet project, you'd "disappear" too.

Yes, cuz other whistle blowers all magically disappeared to some hidden American gulag somewhere. 

[AlwaysFSX]

I don't live in the states, but I am happy to tell you all your problems.

I don't think you have the time to list them all.

 

Yes, cuz other whistle blowers all magically disappeared to some hidden American gulag somewhere. 

You're very naive.

[Embattled]

I don't live in the states, but I am happy to tell you all your problems.

Shortlist plz, it's probably nothing those of us educated Americans haven't figured out already

 

No but seriously I am actually interested in other nations perceptions of America

[Embattled]

I don't think you have the time to list them all.

 

You're very naive.

How so sir, I don't have a problem being called naive at all, I have been called much worse things.

 

I do however have a problem with being called naive without first being told what led the person to believe such a thing. 

[mr moose]

I don't think you have the time to list them all.

 

You're very naive.

 

 

Shortlist plz, it's probably nothing those of us educated Americans haven't figured out already

 

No but seriously I am actually interested in other nations perceptions of America

 

There are only three things wrong:

 

Patriotism, self entitlement and greed.

 

Granted most countries have similar issues, but your patriotic expression of freedom promotes self entitlement which inhibits altruism which promotes greed and denies democracy it's true grace.

 

greed promotes control which stifles freedom, freedom enables growth which develops greed,  patriotism is the vehicle that prevents change in order to allow control without the stifling of freedom and growth without condoning greed.

[AlwaysFSX]

How so sir, I don't have a problem being called naive at all, I have been called much worse things.

 

I do however have a problem with being called naive without first being told what led the person to believe such a thing. 

I'm not going to waste my time to find the perfect sentence(s) and evidence to show it, it's not worth my time because your opinion isn't going to change. Human nature, fun stuff.

 

However, you've shown evidence that you place far to much trust in to the wrong groups of people that you don't know what their intentions are and the reasoning behind them. Will I go in to more detail? No. Does not mean I am wrong, or you either. But I'm not wasting time showing an explaining my opinion.

[AlwaysFSX]

There are only three things wrong:

 

Patriotism, self entitlement and greed.

 

Granted most countries have similar issues, but your patriotic expression of freedom promotes self entitlement which inhibits altruism which promotes greed and denies democracy it's true grace.

 

greed promotes control which stifles freedom, freedom enables growth which develops greed,  patriotism is the vehicle that prevents change in order to allow control without the stifling of freedom and growth without condoning greed.

I'm sure you're missing a few things (there's that much wrong with us) but you nailed the general bullet points spectacularly. *slow clap* Well done!

[EChondo]

Yeah if they caught Snowden before he left he would have been tried in a secret court and then executed. They would have had this on the down low so fast.

[AlwaysFSX]

Yeah if they caught Snowden before he left he would have been tried in a secret court and then executed. They would have had this on the down low so fast.

"Oops, he was in a car crash"

[Embattled]

There are only three things wrong:

 

Patriotism, self entitlement and greed.

 

Granted most countries have similar issues, but your patriotic expression of freedom promotes self entitlement which inhibits altruism which promotes greed and denies democracy it's true grace.

 

greed promotes control which stifles freedom, freedom enables growth which develops greed,  patriotism is the vehicle that prevents change in order to allow control without the stifling of freedom and growth without condoning greed.

I really hate many of my fellow American's ultra patriotism as well. It just drives me nuts when people pretend that the world owes us something and even quite insulting when we think that we are the only ones that can help other people "git der freedom". Like have these people never seen any other place in the world? The US pales in comparison to most of Europe on social issues, our K-12 education is laughable compared to some parts of the East, and many of us have a sense of entitlement that makes us neglect the less fortunate. 

 

I fucking wish I was born in Sweden sometimes, not that they are perfect, but they are ahead of us in many many ways. 

[AlwaysFSX]

I really hate many of my fellow American's ultra patriotism as well. It just drives me nuts when people pretend that the world owes us something and even quite insulting when we think that we are the only ones that can help other people "git der freedom". Like have these people never seen any other place in the world? The US pales in comparison to most of Europe on social issues, our K-12 education is laughable compared to some parts of the East, and many of us have a sense of entitlement that makes us neglect the less fortunate. 

 

I fucking wish I was born in Sweden sometimes, not that they are perfect, but they are ahead of us in many many ways. 

There's a strange thing about the States that makes it feel as separated from the rest of the world as North Korea is. You go to say Sweden for example, you're very well aware of the cultures, opinions, food, etc. in your neighboring countries along with the ones around the world. Here's it's just 'murica 'murica 'murica, fuck the rest of the world.

[Embattled]

"Oops, he was in a car crash"

You do realize that even in a government more broken than the US's you can't just kill off a widely observed public figure like that...

[AlwaysFSX]

You do realize that even in a government more broken than the US's you can't just kill off a widely observed public figure like that...

:blink: You wouldn't even know who he was if it wasn't for him leaking information because he was just a nobody that worked for some contractors.

[Embattled]

There's a strange thing about the States that makes it feel as separated from the rest of the world as North Korea is. You go to say Sweden for example, you're very well aware of the cultures, opinions, food, etc. in your neighboring countries along with the ones around the world. Here's it's just 'murica 'murica 'murica, fuck the rest of the world.

Yeah, I am amazed how we pretended that Cuba didn't exist for ~50 years when it is our 3rd geographical neighbor imho

[EChondo]

You do realize that even in a government more broken than the US's you can't just kill off a widely observed public figure like that...

Do you know the reporter Michael Hastings? Because I'd suggest you read up on that event.

[Embattled]

Do you know the reporter Michael Hastings? Because I'd suggest you read up on that event.

Not conclusive. The conspiracy theory doesn't even make sense either, he wouldn't be a high value target. 

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

No I respect Chelsea Manning but not Snowden cuz one actually faced the courts and didn't run the fuck to Russia like it was some spy free uptopia...

He didn't want to be in Russia, he had planned to go from Hongkong over Moscow and Cuba to Latin America and get asylum there. He just didn't make it past Moscow because the US State Department revoked his passport before he boarded the plane in Hongkong.

Snowden IMO made the right call in running, for a few reasons

1 ) If he had turned himself in, the DOJ could have put the lid on the whole thing and he would have been forgotten already.  We wouldn't even be talking about what he revealed anymore.  Now he's able to give interviews, helping to keep it in the news as much as possible.

2 ) Manning was nowhere near as informed as Snowden is. He didn't know just how badly whistleblowers are treated. If you know full well that you won't get a chance to defend yourself in court and are facing years of torture and solitary confinement, you wouldn't stay either.

3 ) Now that he has become a household name, he uses his name to "reveal" stuff that is in fact leaked by other whistleblowers (the last few minutes of Citizenfour are clearly indicating that). The NSA has no way of knowing who leaked what as Snowden himself made it look like he cast such a wide net that they thought "holy shit, he has everything" (his own words)

 

[Embattled]

He didn't want to be in Russia, he had planned to go from Hongkong over Moscow and Cuba to Latin America and get asylum there. He just didn't make it past Moscow because the US State Department revoked his passport before he boarded the plane in Hongkong.

Snowden IMO made the right call in running, for a few reasons

1 ) If he had turned himself in, the DOJ could have put the lid on the whole thing and he would have been forgotten already.  We wouldn't even be talking about what he revealed anymore.  Now he's able to give interviews, helping to keep it in the news as much as possible.

2 ) Manning was nowhere near as informed as Snowden is. He didn't know just how badly whistleblowers are treated. If you know full well that you won't get a chance to defend yourself in court and are facing years of torture and solitary confinement, you wouldn't stay either.

3 ) Now that he has become a household name, he uses his name to "reveal" stuff that is in fact leaked by other whistleblowers (the last few minutes of Citizenfour are clearly indicating that). The NSA has no way of knowing who leaked what as Snowden himself made it look like he cast such a wide net that they thought "holy shit, he has everything" (his own words)

 

I just end off this convo with this cuz I'm getting a little tired of it imho, the fact that Snowden's leaks weren't that groundbreaking can be seen in the fact that nearly nothing has changed post leaks. 

[RH00D]

I just end off this convo with this cuz I'm getting a little tired of it imho, the fact that Snowden's leaks weren't that groundbreaking can be seen in the fact that nearly nothing has changed post leaks. 

 

I... What... I can't even.

 

You're trolling. You can't be that stupid.

[Embattled]

I... What... I can't even.

 

You're trolling. You can't be that stupid.

I'm not, besides perceptions and strongly worded letters not much of substance has changed. 

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

- The director of national intelligence (James Clapper) had to admit he lied to congress.  Of course he got off with only a slap on the wrist (see the last point to know why)

- A federal judge declared the phone surveillance program unconstitutional.  It remains to be seen how that will play out, but it makes it harder for the government to defend that and similar programs.

- Tech companies finally started to use encryption on a large scale (Gmail's end-to-end encryption for example) and question demands for data or outright deny them (see Microsofts refusal to hand over data on its EU servers to the US)

- Germany investigated the wiretapping of Merkel's phone, seriously affecting the relationship with the US and making all of the EU governments realize that we need to focus more on protecting ourselves against these things.

- Many companies are exploring ways to avoid the US internet infrastructure to protect their data and avoid the NSA's use of harvested data for industrial espionage (Brazilian oil company Petrobras being the most clear example of said espionage, the justification for surveillance stated on the leaked NSA document even says : "economic").

- People are also more aware, judging by the massive increase of use of alternative privacy-minded search engines.  (DuckDuckGo, Startpage, Ixquick, etc)

 

Am I forgetting something?

 

Unfortunately not a lot has changed in terms of legislature.  You are of course dealing with the largest and probably most corrupt system and government worldwide, which is now trying to protect itself and justify its actions by all means necessary.
Straightening that out takes time and may actually require a revolution.

[Embattled]

- The director of national intelligence (James Clapper) had to admit he lied to congress.  Of course he got off with only a slap on the wrist (see the last post to know why)

- A federal judge declared the phone surveillance program unconstitutional.  It remains to be seen how that will play out, but it makes it harder for the government to defend that and similar programs.

- Tech companies finally started to use encryption on a large scale (Gmail's end-to-end encryption for example) and question demands for data or outright deny them (see Microsofts refusal to hand over data on its EU servers to the US)

- Germany investigated the wiretapping of Merkel's phone, seriously affecting the relationship with the US and making all of the EU governments realize that we need to focus more on protecting ourselves against these things.

- Many companies are exploring ways to avoid the US internet infrastructure to protect their data and avoid the NSA's use of harvested data for industrial espionage (Brazilian oil company Petrobras being the most clear example of said espionage, the justification for surveillance stated on the leaked NSA document even says : "economic").

- People are also more aware, judging by the massive increase of use of alternative privacy-minded search engines.  (DuckDuckGo, Startpage, Ixquick, etc)

 

Am I forgetting something?

 

Unfortunately not a lot has changed in terms of legislature.  You are of course dealing with the largest and probably most corrupt system and government worldwide, which is now trying to protect itself and justify its actions by all means necessary.

Straightening that out takes time and may actually require a revolution.

1. Again more proof nothing changed

2. Going to continue anyways under wraps or in another form

3. Lets see how long it takes until the NSA cracks it/Mass default encryption was on its way to happening regardless

4. Just the standard nation to nation spy game going on here

5. Lets see how far they are going to succeed in getting away from the largest internet infrastructure

6. Like a couple thousand ideologues, the huge masses of people have just continued to use what they have been using

 

Yes we in the U.S. are a fair bit corrupt, but don't go crossing the line there, we still are better than most nations in the world and while I am by no means a flag tumping patriot, I still have some pride for my country. 

 

Revolutions don't work, reforms work.

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

1 : because of how corrupt the system is. 

2 : they'll try, but privacy advocates will have an easier time informing the people of what actually changes.  They're not considered tin-foil-hatters anymore.

3 : Sure, they can crack it.  But the harder you make it, the less likely they are to do it unless it's really necessary

4 : spying on close allies is not standard, it's something rogue nations do and the blowback really hurt the US on a diplomatic level. 

5 : Not that hard really, intranet and verifying that you only use EU-based servers and companies to store your data.

 

6 :

Startpage and Ixquick went from under a million to 2.5 million queries per day when Google changed their privacy policy, and that number went to 4 million almost overnight when PRISM was leaked.  They're currently hovering just above the 5 million mark.

DuckDuckGo steadily went from 300k to 1.5 million after the privacy policy change and when the Snowden leaks hit the numbers went up fast and kept climbing.  Currently at 6.8 million queries per day. 

https://www.startpage.com/traffic/

https://duckduckgo.com/traffic.html

Between those 2 that's roughly 12 million queries a day.  That's more than a few thousand users. 

Of course it's nothing compared to the 5 billion searches that Google gets, but it's a start.

 

Come to think of it, say that a billion people use Google, that's 5 searches per person per day.  That means 1.6 million people switched search engine post-Snowden

 

 

When politicians are funded by companies and act against the people's interest on those companies' behalf or even have their letters written by said companies (warner/comcast merger ring a bell?), the system is more than just "a fair bit" corrupt. 

 

It's kinda hard to reform a system that doesn't want to be reformed, has all the power, has all your personal info and is willing to use said power and info to threaten and silence anyone who questions or protests against the system.