Nvidia Gameworks controversy continues...

[johnnysasaki]

Source: http://wccftech.com/nvidia-responds-witcher-3-gameworks-controversy/

 

Nvidia’s GameWorks program has yet again found itself in the headlines owing to its highly polarizing and controversial nature.

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Nvidia’s HairWorks Implementation In The Witcher 3 Sparks Controversy, PC Gamers On The Offensive

This recent controversy started just a couple of days ago when Marcin Momot a spokesperson at CD Projekt Red, the developers behind The Witcher 3, stated that HairWorks, the previously mentioned hair and fur simulation effect from  Nvidia’s GameWorks library  “cannot be optimized for AMD products”.

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This in addition to the performance issues with Project Cars, which is another Nvidia sponsored GameWorks title, caused quite a bit of stir. And as a result, PC gamers went on the offensive. Criticizing Nvidia’s GameWorks and the company’s game developer partnership program in general. Embodied in this lengthy post on the pcmasterrace subreddit, which has been upvoted over 4400 times since yesterday and has a 95% positive rating.

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Brian Burke Nvidia’s head of marketing for the GameWorks program responded to the backlash today confirming what CD Projekt Red had stated earlier. Here’s what he had said in relation to optimization and access to game code.

 

GameWorks improves the visual quality of games running on GeForce for our customers.  It does not impair performance on competing hardware.Demanding source code access to all our cool technology is an attempt to deflect their performance issues. Giving away your IP, your source code, is uncommon for anyone in the industry, including middleware providers and game developers. Most of the time we optimize games based on binary builds, not source code.

Interestingly Nvidia’s stance that Brian Burke outlined here is actually quite contradictory to what was the norm at the company just a few years back and what continues to be the norm for the industry in general.

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It’s quite unfortunate that Nvidia has taken this recent turn with GameWorks towards locking code and limiting control. A future where the competitors’ only choice is to fill the game with even more proprietary code of their own to compete is not one that gamers or developers will want or appreciate.

Read more: http://wccftech.com/nvidia-responds-witcher-3-gameworks-controversy/#ixzz3aUcXvQ2v

The way I see it, proprietary technology and its use in games, is taking a dangerous turn. What has been a nuisance in the past, now is becoming an actual problem. Especially that previously any "day one" performance issues could be usually fixed with an after release patch. Like when AMD featured TressFX in Tomb Raider (2013), that was patched to be handled efficiently on Nvidia cards. Now tables have turned and as CDPR representative stated in the article, in the case of Witcher 3, the usage of basically Nvidia locked features, on both AMD and Nvidia cards with similar results is not possible. A shame really, that we are forced to choose one vendor over the other in order to get "the full experience". Edited May 18, 2015 by GoodBytes
Text now readable

[The_Strict_Nein]

I see no controversy. Nvidia spend millions developing cool new technologies, and AMD deserve to get them for free because why?

 

AMD also have the chance to optimize non-gameworks versions of the game for the developers. If Nvidia are willing to spend the money for an optimization team to work on a game, then they deserve the increase in performance. As Nvidia say, they don't prevent Game devs from working with AMD or other competitors.

 

I'm sure Opcode can tell me

[emistery]

Well, I coudn't use mantle on BF4 with my nvidia card so I didn't get "the full experience" with that game..
But I could see it's going to be a problem

 

Edit:

 

I see no controversy. Nvidia spend millions developing cool new technologies, and AMD deserve to get them for free because why?

 

I'm sure Opcode can tell me

 

This..

[Enflics]

I see no controversy. Nvidia spend millions developing cool new technologies, and AMD deserve to get them for free because why?

 

AMD also have the chance to optimize non-gameworks versions of the game for the developers. If Nvidia are willing to spend the money for an optimization team to work on a game, then they deserve the increase in performance. As Nvidia say, they don't prevent Game devs from working with AMD or other competitors.

 

I'm sure Opcode can tell me

So you say that a 960 should get more fps then a 780 and is perfectly fine? Okayyy

[xBlizzDevious]

Source: http://wccftech.com/nvidia-responds-witcher-3-gameworks-controversy/

 

The way I see it, proprietary technology and its use in games, is taking a dangerous turn. What has been a nuisance in the past, now is becoming an actual problem. Especially that previously any "day one" performance issues could be usually fixed with an after release patch. Like when AMD featured TressFX in Tomb Raider (2013), that was patched to be handled efficiently on Nvidia cards. Now tables have turned and as CDPR representative stated in the article, in the case of Witcher 3, the usage of basically Nvidia locked features, on both AMD and Nvidia cards with similar results is not possible. A shame really, that we are forced to choose one vendor over the other in order to get "the full experience".

 

 

I've not personally looked into it, and I'm taking this as a bit of a whole, but it seems that the only way to have a truly perfect PC experience is to have at least two PCs, one with an Nvidia GPU and a Gsync monitor and one with an AMD GPU and a Freesync monitor. As much as I love the whole customisation of PCs and so on, I can see why console gamers get turned away from PC gaming. Your favourite game series that you play a lot might not only work better, but look better - or even worse, ONLY work - on one manufacturer's hardware and then another game you want is the other way around. It's just stupid.

 

Personally, I think there should be standards that are enforced. By all means, Nvidia; innovate, ADD a feature here and there, make it easier for game devs to do such and such, BUT do not make something behave very differently on differing hardware because of it. Same to AMD.

[emistery]

So you say that a 960 should get more fps then a 780 and is perfectly fine? Okayyy

 

 

A 960 should get more features because it's newer

[The_Strict_Nein]

So you say that a 960 should get more fps then a 780 and is perfectly fine? Okayyy

 

 

What?

 

Unless you mean a 960 should get more performance than an R9 290? If Nvidia are willing to spend the money to help the devs integrate Nvidia techniques to the game (which can run alongside AMD techniques) and AMD aren't, then it's AMDs fault, not Nvidia. Nothing about what Nvidia is doing is trying to put down AMD. They're spending the money to make their experience better and I can commend them for that.

 

Can't remember the last time AMD came out and backed games the same way Nvidia does.

[CtW]

Repost https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/368397-nvidia-under-attack-again-for-gameworks-in-the-witcher-3-wild-hunt/

[The_Strict_Nein]

I've not personally looked into it, and I'm taking this as a bit of a whole, but it seems that the only way to have a truly perfect PC experience is to have at least two PCs, one with an Nvidia GPU and a Gsync monitor and one with an AMD GPU and a Freesync monitor. As much as I love the whole customisation of PCs and so on, I can see why console gamers get turned away from PC gaming. Your favourite game series that you play a lot might not only work better, but look better - or even worse, ONLY work - on one manufacturer's hardware and then another game you want is the other way around. It's just stupid.

 

Personally, I think there should be standards that are enforced. By all means, Nvidia; innovate, ADD a feature here and there, make it easier for game devs to do such and such, BUT do not make something behave very differently on differing hardware because of it. Same to AMD.

 

 

So we should halt all innovation to the lowest common denominator?

[Enflics]

A 960 should get more features because it's newer

Features yes but not flat out more average and higher maximum fps, this is just Nvidia forcing users to upgrade

[Enflics]

What?

 

Unless you mean a 960 should get more performance than an R9 290? If Nvidia are willing to spend the money to help the devs integrate Nvidia techniques to the game (which can run alongside AMD techniques) and AMD aren't, then it's AMDs fault, not Nvidia. Nothing about what Nvidia is doing is trying to put down AMD. They're spending the money to make their experience better and I can commend them for that.

 

Can't remember the last time AMD came out and backed games the same way Nvidia does.

No I mean 780. Nvidia GTX 780 Stock

[xBlizzDevious]

-snip-

Can't remember the last time AMD came out and backed games the same way Nvidia does.

 

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this. It does seem that AMD have faded into oblivion in recent years. I'd like to see a comeback and some better support for everything!

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

AMD fanboys inbound... brace for it!

[The_Strict_Nein]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this. It does seem that AMD have faded into oblivion in recent years. I'd like to see a comeback and some better support for everything!

 

Exactly. Nvidia come out like

 

"Boom, we've got super awesome hair, great fire, great physics, we're gonna have an awesome day one patch, and you can get this game we think is super awesome for free with a new card purchase!"

 

AMD are like

 

"Oh what? Oh, we may have some nice hair effects. Possibly. Probably just Mantle, if it all at release"

[emistery]

Features yes but not flat out more average and higher maximum fps, this is just Nvidia forcing users to upgrade

 

A 780 is faster, BUT a 960 can run at a higher fps in certain games because the game devs chose to adopt a certain feature

[johnnysasaki]

I see no controversy. Nvidia spend millions developing cool new technologies, and AMD deserve to get them for free because why?

 

AMD also have the chance to optimize non-gameworks versions of the game for the developers. If Nvidia are willing to spend the money for an optimization team to work on a game, then they deserve the increase in performance. As Nvidia say, they don't prevent Game devs from working with AMD or other competitors.

 

I'm sure Opcode can tell me

The article states, that CDPR devs were prohibited from working with Nvidia competing vendors. Also If consumers started voting with their wallets, than Nvidia would maybe start caring for a consumer as a whole.

[xBlizzDevious]

So we should halt all innovation to the lowest common denominator?

 

Not what I said.

 

I'll emphasise the point that I've not read deeply into this - so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

 

But it seems that Nvidia is making it impossible for a game to run at the same visual fidelity on differing hardware because it's only allowing the one side to use the hardware at all. As was mentioned in the OP, TressFX was an AMD technology, but Nvidia were able to release a patch that allowed their cards to run it smoothly.

 

Nvidia seem to have created their own system, but from what I'm reading, AMD can't optimise for it - at all.

[The_Strict_Nein]

The article states, that CDPR devs were prohibited from working with Nvidia competing vendors. Also If consumers started voting with their wallets, than Nvidia would maybe start caring for a consumer as a whole.

 

They prohibited them working with other vendors on Gameworks code. AMD is perfectly free to licence Gameworks and then work with CDPR on optimizing Gameworks for AMD cards.

 

As far as I know, AMD are completely free to work with CDPR on their own technologies if they want, provided they're willing to supply the support.

[The_Strict_Nein]

Not what I said.

 

I'll emphasise the point that I've not read deeply into this - so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

 

But it seems that Nvidia is making it impossible for a game to run at the same visual fidelity on differing hardware because it's only allowing the one side to use the hardware at all. As was mentioned in the OP, TressFX was an AMD technology, but Nvidia were able to release a patch that allowed their cards to run it smoothly.

 

Nvidia seem to have created their own system, but from what I'm reading, AMD can't optimise for it - at all.

 

Because either Nvidia have better engineers, or they licensed TressFX to get access to the source code. Which AMD are perfectly able to do with Gameworks but don't want to.

[Bouzoo]

So you say that a 960 should get more fps then a 780 and is perfectly fine? Okayyy

 

How the hell is that AMDs fault? Those are both Nvidia cards, if Nvidia wants users to buy their new line that is a different issue, doesn't have to do anything with Witcher 3 working worse on AMD cards. 

[xBlizzDevious]

Because either Nvidia have better engineers, or they licensed TressFX to get access to the source code. Which AMD are perfectly able to do with Gameworks but don't want to.

 

If that's true, then my argument is invalid, and I'll fall back on the following point I said:

 

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this. It does seem that AMD have faded into oblivion in recent years. I'd like to see a comeback and some better support for everything!

 

Particularly in their fancy new features such as Freesync and Mantle. Both of which had no support at all for Crossfire OR Eyefinity at first and barely works when the "support" is there.

[Trik'Stari]

[zappian]

What?

 

Unless you mean a 960 should get more performance than an R9 290? If Nvidia are willing to spend the money to help the devs integrate Nvidia techniques to the game (which can run alongside AMD techniques) and AMD aren't, then it's AMDs fault, not Nvidia. Nothing about what Nvidia is doing is trying to put down AMD. They're spending the money to make their experience better and I can commend them for that.

 

Can't remember the last time AMD came out and backed games the same way Nvidia does.

 

I agree with that 100% if we keep realistic perceptions about this.

A lot of people complain about AMD drivers for the issues with project cars , but thats not the case.

 

That game runs better on NVIDIA cards because they have worked alongside with the devs to implement such optimizations , NOT because the AMD driver team is comprised by a bunch of monkeys.

 

NVIDIA worked alongside the devs to implement nvidia specific features and optimizations and thats why gameworks games run better.

 

People are taking an opportunity to use this as a cheap shot to attack AMD drivers but I find that line of logic just retarded.

 

Thats like saying NVIDIA drivers suck because AMD gpus run battlefield 4 better with mantle or without mantle for that matter on that game.

[___]

Why is everybody mad? Do they think that Amd is going to just sit there and let Nvidia take over? This is just competition between businesses and unfortunately right now one is getting it's ass kicked. On the bright side, if the trend continues, it will force Amd to improve their graphics card software which will be a win for consumers with their cards in the future.

[bogus]

I see no controversy. Nvidia spend millions developing cool new technologies, and AMD deserve to get them for free because why?

 

AMD also have the chance to optimize non-gameworks versions of the game for the developers. If Nvidia are willing to spend the money for an optimization team to work on a game, then they deserve the increase in performance. As Nvidia say, they don't prevent Game devs from working with AMD or other competitors.

 

I'm sure Opcode can tell me

I'm sorry, but you are talking out of complete ignorance - you have no idea what contracts were signed, what exclusivity deals were crafted, or even if AMD approached Projekt Red or even if PR approached them. Zero idea.

 

And even if you had a mild idea, you would still have to know the WHY?.

 

NVIDIA themselfs said on a interview that the contracts they have with developers are under NDA so they cannot be disclosed. They didn't even comment on basic questions related to their Gameworks implementations - and no developer can comment on it either.

 

What NVIDIA says it's very different from what is under a NDA contract.