The 'Gender Gap' in programming

[LinusLoveMe]

I have recently come across yet another article talking about 'sexism and oppression towards women in technology' and it bothers me quite a bit. The topic is well blown out of proportion from what it really going on. Now obviously it is no lie that men dominate the technology field, however these media groups feel that it has nothing to do with individual choice/interest and is rather just blatant discrimination. One point that it talked about is the lack of women in this students computer science class in college. Now it is likely true that there is (the article said only 2), however this has nothing to do with discrimination at all. In modern days colleges and universities are prioritizing women for scholarships for those entering the tech field to try to merge the gap. I find it outrageous that society acts as if men just undermine someone for being a woman in the tech field for no reason. Any reputable business bases a job off of work ethic plain and simple. The article went on to say that "They felt they had to prove their worth daily just to avoid being thought of as the person who is there to bring the coffee.", which I am sorry but that is an incredulous fallacy. To say that someone needed to do their job to be respected should be a given to any employee male or female. Personally in my class there are about 15 men and 3 women. From what it seems only myself, 5 other guys, and 1 girl understand the topic and are also being instructed by a quite knowledgeable female professor. I guess my point is is that modern day media and the feminist agenda at its current state is simply just piling loads of crap on top of each other when the technology field comes into play. I would appreciate any opinions you guys have on this topic.

 

Source

[The Crazed Child]

 

Your post reminded me of this cringey video

[Fulgrim]

The whole gender wage gap bullshite fails to take into account the qualification level and type each person has. And the level of work they do in whichever profession.

 

I.e, there are more male neurosurgeons out there than females, yet there's more females in the line of nurses etc.

[LinusLoveMe]

 

Your post reminded me of this cringey video

Thank you for that.

[Fulgrim]

I mean after all, if you're a business owner and you can pay women less for the same work, would you not only hire women? It doesn't happen because just like the existance of god, it's imaginary and does not exist.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyFjPHwF6To

 

 

[KemoKa]

In order for women to get into the tech industry, there needs to be a change in behavior, and it can't just be everyone helping women up the step, they have to step up to the plate as well. Society has told them that they are unfit for the tech industry because they are women, with no other real explanation as to why that should be (there isn't one). But that's not the problem. The problem is that women are listening to what society says about that, and they care too much about standing out, and that is a tremendously large problem, I think. I would like nothing better than for women to be more involved in the tech industry. But I can't force girls to learn skills they have no interest in, I can only invite and encourage. Only thing that's left is for them to actually pursue the career.

So, I'd like to ask you girls out there, what is it really that's stopping you from fitting into the tech industry? Because I guarantee you that nothing it could be could possibly matter if you want a job in the tech industry enough. There is nothing stopping you. All you have to do is take it, and if it means changing the way you behave or the way you act or the way you dress, then that's just par for the course, I'm afraid. If your feminine identity is more important to you than your prospective job in computers and technology, then I'm afraid that you're going to have a very hard time with it. We will welcome you wholeheartedly, but you're going to have to adjust to fit into the group. That's all. slacken your shoulders, don't curl up into a ball whenever someone pats you on the shoulder and don't be defensive. be relaxed. Can't do that, and you're going to have problems, and those will lead to more problems and so on and so on.

[bob345]

Its because there are not many women who actually study to become programmers or engineers. I'm majoring in computer engineering and i have yet to have a girl in any of the core classes for my major.

[LogicalDrm]

Its because there are not many women who actually study to become programmers or engineers. I'm majoring in computer engineering and i have yet to have a girl in any of the core classes for my major.

 

May be also because of the way some countries are. Here it has been more towards 30-50% of female students in IT/Gamedev. Latter being more popular since it involves creative jobs like scriptwriting, composer and graphical artists. Even last major Finnish game release has female head of development (in Cities: Skylines).

[STRMfrmXMN]

Women partake in IT and comp science less than men. Do you often see men going into the fashion industry? Although it's got a few men in it, it's dominated by women. Same goes for this sort of thing. Who says that girls can't do it?

Normally I'm the feminist here but this just plain bothers me.

[TetraSky]

The work place gender gap is a myth. There isn't as many of a specific gender in a specific field because they aren't studying for it, not because they aren't getting hired. Like STRMfrmXMN, women are dominating the fashion industry, yes there are a few men in there as well, but the same can be said about the tech field, there are a few women. Why? Because that's what THEY are interested in, stop trying to get a 50/50 gender ratio on every jobs, that's impossible.

The wage gap is also a myth. Women in a similar position as men are paid the same amount, the thing you see on news and out of the breath hole of politicians all the time, that women are paid less than men on "average", is simply that, an average, it doesn't take in consideration that maybe there are just more women in lower paying jobs. But what are you gonna do? Increase the minimum wage? Fire every women in minimum wage jobs to raise your average? Get real here...
 
All of these "gap" myth are annoying to me and are just being done for the views.

[mr moose]

these discussions always remind of this:

 

[KemoKa]

 

The wage gap is also a myth. Women in a similar position as men are paid the same amount, the thing you see on news and out of the breath hole of politicians all the time, that women are paid less than men on "average", is simply that, an average

 

It reminds me of the claim that the life expectancy in the middle ages was like, 25 to 35. That's an average based on high infant mortality, death from childbirth, disease, famine, war, all sorts of things. Had absolutely nothing to do with the possible lifespan of human beings as it's always been toted as.

 

That's how these myths are.

[Techteen14]

I haven't done enough research on the matter to form a solid opinion yet.

 

It is also not possible for the matter to be as bad as the media (whose job is to blow things out of proportion for dem clicks) says it is.

 

I mean after all, if you're a business owner and you can pay women less for the same work, would you not only hire women? It doesn't happen because just like the existance of god, it's imaginary and does not exist.

 

 

 

 

 

Please don't make claims like that unless you have 100% proof (you don't). You might offend someone more easily offended than I (I'm a Christian), which would just create a flame war that no one wants. This is a tech forum, not r/Atheism.

 

Also, I thought that was Anderson Cooper at first.

[christianled59]

I haven't done enough research on the matter to form a solid opinion yet.

 

It is also not possible for the matter to be as bad as the media (whose job is to blow things out of proportion for dem clicks) says it is.

 

 

 

Please don't make claims like that unless you have 100% proof (you don't). You might offend someone more easily offended than I (I'm a Christian), which would just create a flame war that no one wants. This is a tech forum, not r/Atheism.

 

Also, I thought that was Anderson Cooper at first.

I agree. I much prefer the ideaology of agnostics to atheists as they're usually more open minded about what they do not know and/or have evidence to support their claims.

[Fulgrim]

-snip-

I do not care if you are offended or not.

 

Also, the wage gap is based upon the average earnings of men and women. This is without separating the results based upon the actual work being done.

 

If you take into account factors such as profession etc., a woman will get the same pay as a man for the same job. I.e, a female police officer will earn the same as a male police officer. The only time this would differentiate is if one works longer hours than the other, or one works for longer in that profession than the other. i.e, 10 years vs 20 years.

 

As for my quote about the existence of god, it still stands. The burden of proof is on the believers and the evidence to support the claim of a god is pretty much non-existent. 

 

[Paul567]

[Real_PhillBert]

My mechanical engineering class was 43 people, 2 females. 

 

The problem isn't discrimination, it's the general lack of interest women have for STEM careers.

 

We even had a Society of Women Engineers group in my university, no Society of Men Engineers though. I could argue that it is the men who are actually discriminated against.

[Admiral Naismith]

As is often the case, I think there is more of an issue in education, especially in the high-school and college level. Race, gender, background, etc. can make a difference despite universities and schools claiming that they make sure it doesn't.

 

 

If you heard some of the stories my sister has from going to university on the west-coast...

[marioo1182]

I don't see why it really matters? Neurologically women are most likely not interested in programming as much as men.

Take a look at Nursing classes and count how many guys are there. Or the fashion industry, mostly women.

Why does everything have to have equality. This just in, it doesn't need quality.

 

The world needs equality for rights...

-Freedom

-Race

-Religion

-e.t.c.

 

The world does not need equality for...

-programming

-fashion

-engineering

[Kamina]

The women writing these articles most likely don't have an engineering degree and instead majored in liberal arts. 

 

It's the lack of interest, and it's also the way our brain works. Men like complex and logical problems while women like things that require intuition and empathy. 

[Embattled]

In order for women to get into the tech industry, there needs to be a change in behavior, and it can't just be everyone helping women up the step, they have to step up to the plate as well. Society has told them that they are unfit for the tech industry because they are women, with no other real explanation as to why that should be (there isn't one). But that's not the problem. The problem is that women are listening to what society says about that, and they care too much about standing out, and that is a tremendously large problem, I think. I would like nothing better than for women to be more involved in the tech industry. But I can't force girls to learn skills they have no interest in, I can only invite and encourage. Only thing that's left is for them to actually pursue the career.

So, I'd like to ask you girls out there, what is it really that's stopping you from fitting into the tech industry? Because I guarantee you that nothing it could be could possibly matter if you want a job in the tech industry enough. There is nothing stopping you. All you have to do is take it, and if it means changing the way you behave or the way you act or the way you dress, then that's just par for the course, I'm afraid. If your feminine identity is more important to you than your prospective job in computers and technology, then I'm afraid that you're going to have a very hard time with it. We will welcome you wholeheartedly, but you're going to have to adjust to fit into the group. That's all. slacken your shoulders, don't curl up into a ball whenever someone pats you on the shoulder and don't be defensive. be relaxed. Can't do that, and you're going to have problems, and those will lead to more problems and so on and so on.

Then this problem isn't about the tech industry, it is about the gender role stereotyping of our entire society. The tech industry cannot do anything by itself to completely change the perception of women in greater society, so I feel it is a tad unfair to blast the tech sector as a whole for gender gaps. The problem isn't women aren't being hired because they are women, the problem is there simply aren't enough women in the tech sector. 

 

I'm wouldn't know as I am a guy so do any women feel that many of women only tech initiatives are patronizing? 

Adding on a little to that I find it ironic that I have always wanted to join a robotics club in my area but the only one is a female only one run with the purpose of getting more women in the industry. You can draw your own conclusions from that story.

 

Real shame that some even admit there is a problem. 

[Kermit]

The wage gap has been around for over two hundred years. It's just how society functions, so why is there so much fuss about it now.

[Embattled]

 

Crap, dbl post.

[KemoKa]

The wage gap has been around for over two hundred years. It's just how society functions, so why is there so much fuss about it now.

we've been over this. The wage gap isn't a thing. All it is is averages between different jobs. Women tend to gear towards lower-paying jobs, hence the gap. That's literally the only reason.

[othertomperson]

It's the lack of interest, and it's also the way our brain works. Men like complex and logical problems while women like things that require intuition and empathy. 

 

That's really bad science right there.

 

I find it hard to look at the number of men who go into STEM and the number of women and conclude that it's just that they all en masse just somehow agreed that it wasn't for them. To me that seems unlikely.

 

So instead of just assuming one colossal coincidence, as most of you are doing, I would look to the experiences of someone who is part of a marginalised group in society to see what effect, if any, being a part of this group had on their science career.

 

So I find this interesting video of Neil deGrasse Tyson speaking on exactly this topic.

 

http://www.upworthy.com/neil-degrasse-tyson-reveals-that-hes-been-black-his-whole-life-hilarity-and-wisdom-follow?c=gt1

 

I think what you guys are missing is that this isn't active misogyny or deliberate avoidance of women that is the problem, but you are assuming that the lack of uptake, which you have correctly identified as the issue, as completely random. Which I think is quite the logical leap to make. And some of you claiming that it's just because men are more logical, well you're not doing that argument any favours with this kind of oversight.