Do you think that Nvidia should recall 970's? (and Nvidia's response)

[Alan150003]

But I paid for 64ROPS, 2048KB of cache and 4GB of VRAM. Nvidia sold me that. Yes, good performance indeed, but I paid for "specific specifications".

This isn't lollipop, or a dirty pancake, this is a $300+ card.

 

I can agree that they advertised something that they weren't following through on. However, did you notice? When you first got your card did you launch up whatever task needs the 64ROPs, or 2048KB of L2, or 4GB of VRAM and immediately say "What the fuck? This isn't doing what it's supposed to!" because as far as I know you weren't grabbing your pitchfork and torch before this huge scandal came to light.

 

It's just a bunch of drama. Is it shitty that NVIDIA falsely advertised? Yes, but in all honesty most people bought the card because of reviews, or performance numbers, or endorsements from reliable sources, and they got what they wanted. This is only an issue because of how angry people get when they feel like they were scammed, and in most cases they weren't. I just bought a 970 today despite this issue because I looked at the performance numbers, and I thought "$350? That's a damn good deal."

[Creepz]

They didn't lie - they weren't aware of the issue.

 

Honestly they have two choices - do nothing or spent a boatload of money recalling them and shipping with new firmware. Hopefully they do the latter.

 

Maybe they could just release a new firmware and have users to flash their VBIOS with NVflash and solve the issue that way.

Isn't it hardware limited? What would releasing new firmware do? If nvidia wants to do anything with the 970s, they could fix the sli voltage issue. 

[Templar848]

I will start this off by simply stating that most would consider me an Nvidia fanboy.   Years ago I used to be team red all the way, but after three straight cards had problems I switched and haven't regretted it for a moment.   

With that being said, I purchased 2 GTX 970s and sold 2 GTX 780s specifically for better 4k and future proofing.    I, admittedly had some concerns in going to fewer cuda cores, and lower memory bus speeds, but I felt the higher clock speeds, the updated architecture, and the 4 gb of vram more than made up for those, and the benchmarks in every review I saw online backed this up.   

Once I got the cards installed, I actually wondered if something was wrong as I did not get any of the gains I expected.   My performance was actually WORSE at 4k than with the two 780s.   I debated returning them, but felt that this was most likely due to driver immaturity, as the 780 performance had improved over the last year as new drivers were released.   So, after much debate I sold the 780s and I am now regretting it.  New drivers have not improved the 970 performance significantly, and with all this new information coming out, I do feel like I was misled, whether intentionally or not.   I DID buy these cards because of the 4gb memory buffer.   I was already questioning the memory bus design before I learned that one of the controllers was disabled.  I have seen massive stutters (I might even call a couple of them screen freezes) when going over 3.5 gb vram usage.   It is infrequent, but it does happen.  Honestly, I thought something else was wrong until all this came out and I started monitoring the vram usage .  One of the posters has said that people did not buy specs, but he is incorrect.   Had I seen the actual specs of the 970 before purchasing, I would not have purchased them, and stayed with my 780s a while longer.   

 

With all the above being said, my regret over not returning the 970s while I still could, my feeling that Nvidia was not honest regarding the specifications of the 970, I still would not purchase another AMD gpu, as my track record with their cards is still worse.   

I do feel that Nvidia should offer purchasers of 970s some sort of recompense for misleading us with the specifications of the cards (again, whether it was intentional or  not).    

in response to some of the car analogies that have been floating around, I would like to put out a little factual information rather than vague analogies.   When Mazda introduced the RX8 a few years ago, it was claimed to have a certain amount of horsepower and torque.   Magazines tested it and it did 0-60 and the quarter mile in certain times.   However, when magazines and owners started putting the cars on dynamometers,  they quickly realized that the RX8 engine was not producing it's manufacturer claimed horsepower.   It still accelerated as fast as tested, but was making less power than the manufacturer claimed.  Mazda offered to buy back every RX8 from any owner who was dissatisfied. 

 

[STRMfrmXMN]

Isn't it hardware limited? What would releasing new firmware do? If nvidia wants to do anything with the 970s, they could fix the sli voltage issue. 

Firmware is a bit like a BIOS... sorta. It's kinda like software proprietary to the one piece of hardware. SSDs can have firmware updates through software and flash-based services through flash drives but I do not have any sort of clue how it works on GPUs. But a firmware recall where new firmware is dished out at the factory seems like Nvidia's safest PR bet.

[-rascal-]

As mentioned on the WANshow, even if NVidia rolls out a firmware / vBIOS update, they will still have to recall the GTX 970 graphics cards.

There will be that chance where flashing the vBIOS can brick the card -- even if you follow the steps by the letter.

Most of all, the "general consumer" who just buys a GTX 970 has probably never flashed the vBIOS on a graphics card before. Look at all the "very first time building a gaming rig help" posts on this very LTT forum!

 

• 3.5GB + 512MB
• 64 56 ROPs
• 2048 1972 KB

Can't be fixed with a simple firmware update. That is at a hardware level. The componentry / circuitry is physically not there.

 

Regardless, the GTX 970's performance hasn't changed since launch, but the specifications have been have been lied.

How in the HELL does the Engineers + Marketing + Corporate big-shots not KNOW about this?!?! They must have known; they BUILT the damn thing.

[KamiKatze]

TL;DR

 

@OP: NO!!! The 970 is still a beast card and when it acesses it's last 0.5 GB of memory it just loads slower. I couldn't care less! Skyrim takes 20% longer to load with all my mods installed, oh no, what a tragedy!

 

Do a recall on this card? are you high? there are thousands and thousands of 970s sold already, it is impossible for them to recall them all and replace them by improved versions. It would take ages and a seperate set of employees who would only deal with the recalling.

 

Forget it! The 970 is still a beast card and i haven't encoutered any game breaking FPS drops yet, allthough i have of course tested and filled my 4 GB vram.

[SLOWION]

Nvidia needs to setup counseling sessions for all these whiney 970 owners

[Creepz]

They wouldn't be able to get the ROPs back, but maybe fix the memory issue. BIOS updats can do loads of things, but I'm not an expert on the subject so take that with a grain of salt.

The memory issue is relative to them binning the 980s, and the 970s have slower memory on the .5gb portion, so they segmented it off, to have better performance on the other 3.5 gbs. I don't think any amount of code will fix that. I honestly don't think the memory is an issue, you still get 4 gbs of vram, but 1/8 of it is slightly slower than the rest. Performance shouldn't take much of a hit.

 

Firmware is a bit like a BIOS... sorta. It's kinda like software proprietary to the one piece of hardware. SSDs can have firmware updates through software and flash-based services through flash drives but I do not have any sort of clue how it works on GPUs. But a firmware recall where new firmware is dished out at the factory seems like Nvidia's safest PR bet.

Whatever you're trying to say doesn't seem relevant or add any support to why updating firmware would do anything for the 970.

[chopdok]

Firmware is a bit like a BIOS... sorta. It's kinda like software proprietary to the one piece of hardware. SSDs can have firmware updates through software and flash-based services through flash drives but I do not have any sort of clue how it works on GPUs. But a firmware recall where new firmware is dished out at the factory seems like Nvidia's safest PR bet.

It is actually called BIOS as far as GPU are concerned as well.

[chopdok]

TL;DR

 

@OP: NO!!! The 970 is still a beast card and when it acesses it's last 0.5 GB of memory it just loads slower. I couldn't care less! Skyrim takes 20% longer to load with all my mods installed, oh no, what a tragedy!

 

Do a recall on this card? are you high? there are thousands and thousands of 970s sold already, it is impossible for them to recall them all and replace them by improved versions. It would take ages and a seperate set of employees who would only deal with the recalling.

 

Forget it! The 970 is still a beast card and i haven't encoutered any game breaking FPS drops yet, allthough i have of course tested and filled my 4 GB vram.

 

Alright, so you are happy with your purchase. On what grounds you say that I should be happy too? You think that your way of gaming, and your demnads are the only ones that valid, and that if you are happy, then everyone must be happy, because you decided that the card is good for everyone?

[-rascal-]

TL;DR

 

@OP: NO!!! The 970 is still a beast card and when it acesses it's last 0.5 GB of memory it just loads slower. I couldn't care less! Skyrim takes 20% longer to load with all my mods installed, oh no, what a tragedy!

 

Do a recall on this card? are you high? there are thousands and thousands of 970s sold already, it is impossible for them to recall them all and replace them by improved versions. It would take ages and a seperate set of employees who would only deal with the recalling.

 

Forget it! The 970 is still a beast card and i haven't encoutered any game breaking FPS drops yet, allthough i have of course tested and filled my 4 GB vram.

 

Not only is the data stored on the VRAM when the game is loaded up, but the data is also re-written & re-read as you progress through the game.

 

They can certainly recall them all (if need be).

Remember Intel's motherboard problem back in 2011 / 2012?  All P67 / H67 (and some Z68) motherboards needed to be recalled -- revision B3.

[KamiKatze]

Alright, so you are happy with your purchase. On what grounds you say that I should be happy too? You think that your way of gaming, and your demnads are the only ones that valid, and that if you are happy, then everyone must be happy, because you decided that the card is good for everyone?

 

I smell butthurt.

 

This is called an "opinion". A opinion is used usually by single persons to express how they feel about a certain topic. Other people who don't share this opinion don't have to force it upon theirselves as a god given solution, because it's an opinion!

 

And by the way, yes i did plenty of testing yesterday in several games and what usually happened was that the game took longer to load. that's it. I viewed the used VRAM through MSI Afterburner and Kombustor and i crossed the 3.5 GB mark several times in games aswell as on loading screens.

 

-> no problems what so ever, at least for me.

[KamiKatze]

Not only is the data stored on the VRAM when the game is loaded up, but the data is also re-written & re-read as you progress through the game.

 

They can certainly recall them all (if need be).

Remember Intel's motherboard problem back in 2011 / 2012?  All P67 / H67 (and some Z68) motherboards needed to be recalled -- revision B3.

 

Who knows to what parts of the vram the data is re-written to? I hope nvidia updates their drivers or provides a BIOS that allows a better management of those 0.5 GB VRAM.

 

But the 970s was sold so massiveley. I just can't imagine thay could pull that off. Unless of course, 80% of the customers don't give a fuck or don't realize their card is faulted and just don't participate in the recall.

[chopdok]

I smell butthurt.

 

This is called an "opinion". A opinion is used usually by single persons to express how they feel about a certain topic. Other people who don't share this opinion don't have to force it upon theirselves as a god given solution, because it's an opinion!

 

And by the way, yes i did plenty of testing yesterday in several games and what usually happened was that the game took longer to load. that's it. I viewed the used VRAM through MSI Afterburner and Kombustor and i crossed the 3.5 GB mark several times in games aswell as on loading screens.

 

-> no problems what so ever, at least for me.

Absolutely. I dont mind someone saying they are happy with GTX 970. What I do mind is when someone goes in and just declares GTX 970 "beast of a card" and that I should "forget" about consumer rights and enjoy my purchase. Different people have different definitions of beast, and I do not consider any GPU that has less than 4 GB of GDDR5 working at full speed a "beast". Not in 2015. And I especially dont like to be rediculed for suggesting a recall of a product that was falsely advertised. Bigger recalls were made. Cars, gadgets, everything. But for some reason, people treat nVidia as some special fragile snowflake, that must be forgiven and not put under any financial difficulty because....why exactly? But alright, he expressed opinion, I expressed mine, and lets call it.

 

Also, whenever I see someone trying so hard to convince everyone that GTX 970 is awesome, and that is ok and we shouldn't demand anything from nVidia for such awesome card, and then I see GTX 970 SLI in signature, I smell denial. But I dont go around preaching that everyone who has GTX 970 should demand a refund and/or sue nVidia. Unlike you lot, who go around preaching how everyone (but yourself) acts like spoiled children.

[VirtuaLaughing]

If i document anything as 300 and the truth is 299 then I'm fired......
They should recall and refound EVERYONE. I think they expect from their employees the same..... to take responsibility.
Ohh i forgot to tight a screew in your watercooling loop.....
If you can catch my drift....

[LeoMiami]

I think that is very clear, if and only if the SPEC of the GTX 970 changed now after the memory gate as of before the "design memory configuration problem", they just lie to the customer, and need to offer a recall for everyone interested, like we give you a coupon off base MSRP of GTX 970 at launch and you can buy a new Nvidia card with the coupon adding some of your cash for example to get a full GM204 GTX 980, and a pretty beefy incentive so people don't go for the coupon and stay with the GTX 970 card like  2 top ten games of your choice for example. Anyway Nvidia got a problem because when you sell stuff you simply can't make mistakes on SPEC data sheet, is lying. Im glad i didn't buy it, now i will stay team red.

[TomatoLV]

How bout free GTA V.?

[lani100]

Nah I don't really see the problem, mine work fine.

[dmvdberg]

Nah I don't really see the problem, mine work fine.

 

Ofcourse it works. But that isn't really the issue here.

If it will still work like it should when games get more demanding: most likely not. 

And apart from all that. Nvidia should not have called this a 4Gb Card. Someone somewhere made the choice knowing all to well how this might end. In a lot of hurt. Perhaps they hoped it would have been an extra year or so before this would turn up? Who knows.

 

That fact remains. You have a card that does not function as advertised. Sadly.

[MoDtEc]

They didn't lie - they weren't aware of the issue.

 

Honestly they have two choices - do nothing or spent a boatload of money recalling them and shipping with new firmware. Hopefully they do the latter.

u know that firmware cant change the physical layout, don't ya?

[FloRolf]

To everyone saying we should stop whining about nvidia lying to us:

Do you think this one guy bought red bull to grow wings?

No, but what did he get? Shittons of money.

#murica

[stconquest]

If a recall was an option for Nvidia, I would have expected a halt on 970 sales.

[ExcitezR]

i want a refund because i paid for something that im not getting full advantage of and i need all 4GB of ram 

[ZerockzZz]

Is this only on the reference card or every 970 from all vendors?

[Fyirra]

The Gtx 970, oh man what a let down.

 

Lets start this off with a question, when you buy a graphics card what are you looking at/for? Are you looking for all the CUDA's or memory clock speeds or maybe even the base and boost clock speeds what about the memory bandwidth. 

 

No.

 

When i go out and buy a graphics card the clock speeds do not matter to me much because you can always overclock them, do i look at CUDA's to see how many i have and compare it to other cards  CUDA's, lets be honest here not much of it even matters. When i make my final decision it comes down to the benchmarks GPU benchmark sites, fps in games, fps at different resolutions. 

 

Some people might think that looking at all those numbers mean anything, to them i will like a video made by linus himself 

In this video he and i quote "No you can not compare performance by looking at specifications".

 

In all what im getting at is, your card still runs just as good as it did before reading about this mistake right? Then why cry about it, you do not need a refund, you do not need compensation, and mostly don't need to be complaining about some performance problems when you go about 3.5 gigs because i bet most of your games will never pull that much v-ram.