Target Australia Removes GTA V from shelves.

[SeriouslyMikey]

This is a good call, Australia is a nation of former criminals so I wouldn't be giving them any ideas. 

 

That is either a joke, or you're just a moron. 

[Lewellyn]

They are taking a loss by not selling the game, they're choosing not to support the product by not putting it on their shelves. By refusing to put it on the shelves they're literally voting with their wallets. That's literally what it means. Again, I don't agree with their move but they're more than free to do it. Just as we're free to buy the game elsewhere. All I'm saying is that people should save their rage about censorship for when there's ACTUAL censorship and that attacking the petition creators is both immature and counter-productive.

 

That's your problem, you don't even understand that what they did is in fact censorship.

[HermanT]

Look, I don't know where you are from, what background you come from and what personal experiences you may have had, but there obviously seem to be some rather significant differences in the way we both view our surroundings. So with that in mind, here's a few things I disagree with you on:

 

 

I'm from Germany. If I am supposed to accept personal resposibility for the mistreatment of women several decades before I was born, I'd also have to accept responsibility for the Holocaust. Do you think it would be correct to blame me, a guy in his early 20s, for the Holocaust? The amount of men running around beating their wives in this country is about as high as the number of people who plaster swastikas all over themselves and their belongings, which is not really that high of a number at all. Nevertheless, according to your logic, I should be curling up in a corner crying about how I am/was (somehow) responsible for creating the circumstances of WW2 and the Holocaust, not to mention the horrible treatment of women over centuries. I'm sorry, but I respectfully decline to do so, if you don't mind 

 

 

"We"? Again, I don't remember ever doing such a thing, and I most certainly am not going to accept responsibility for something I have no control over, mostly because I wasn't born yet at the time.

 

 

Oooh, now we're getting in hot'n'heavy 

 

I wonder where you draw that... lets just say "dramatic" conclusion from. Even though I'm still a young fellow, I have spent multiple years living on different continents and I have met a decent amount of men from all over the world. I know the type of man who acts towards women in such ways does exist and yes, I have met people like that. Interestingly, I've also met astonishingly abusive and malicious women. In Argentina, a girl once slipped a pretty healthy dose of MDMA or something similar into my drink, lets just say it was an "interesting" experience. Yet you'll never hear me say "most women are abusive and malicious", as you say "most men" are, which is quite a hefty claim you're making there. I wonder, wonder.... is there any evidence to back that up...?

 

 

I make fun of them for my own personal amusement. Look at is as a hobby. I enjoy messing with them, asking them the slightly more difficult questions in a carefully polite and respectful way, and then watching them block me and call it "harrassment". I have fun making fun of stupidity, and I don't think I'm alone with that. Why do you think shows like The Daily Show are so popular? Everyone needs an occasional outlet, nothing stupid about that. And ignoring? Hell no, these people deserve medals! Why would anyone ignore such a marvellous piece of involuntary comedy? 

And "wasting my youth"? Please, I typed this in 5 minutes and the previous post was a collection of pictures from google, not exactly the most time consuming hobby.

I feel like nothings is gonna change on either my end or yours from this conversation, but to provide an answer at least...

 

I never said about accepting responsibility, though might have implied that. In a sense be mindful of what has happened. Accept responsibility in a sense that associate yourself with what happened and stop trolling them like you have no connections. Of course you cant be taken responsible for the holocaust and of course you cant be held responsible for the mistreatment of women of the past, neither can I, nor anybody. But to say that, I have no connection to the past, it was someone else, these people today are just crazies, I am gonna troll them because they are the ones doing the bad things, I feel like is just, wrong. My nationality has sins too, and there are people out there that are very pissed at my nationality and country. I am sure that there are people that still feel anger toward Germany and its people. If someone were to confront and blame me for that, oh well, all I have to do is politely apologize and explain, that it was the past, and I wasn't there to live it. If a person was to get violent, the ofc, I'd have to physically defend myself. That's the way I view it. That's the right thing to do, things have happened, we cant override history. Same for you and the holocaust. no? Just don't prolong what has happened. By trolling those women now, you are pretty much as involved, just stay passive, let it go.

 

That's why I say there's the same disregard, because there is. You know, when I was little, there was this fun thing of playing and squishing ants (I bet a lot of boys did that). Because I can you know, because I am bigger, and its fun. Then we grew up and were like: "Boy, was that a stupid thing to do." My brother used to come to younger boys and troll them with questions that were beyond their intelligence. Of course he was older, he had a smarter mind. I bet he can do that even now. IT is fun, it is fun to toy with something that is weaker than you, dumber than you. Are you not doing the same thing? Being polite or not, what you doing with asking them question to put them into a dead end for your own amusement is in fact disregard and harassment, although a very subtle one. And that's why I say don't waste your youth. I bet almost everyone does's that at a young age, but only a few when they are grown up. You are much more smarter than them, you are young and smart, but what do you choose to do with it. Use your smarts to point out how dumb others are (even if they are)? That's not a smart thing to do, I'm sorry it just isn't. That's what I meant by not wasting your youth. You could do so much more than that...

 

Yeah, if you compare % to % then men are more abusive, a lot more. If I were to give a psychological profile to men and women I would say men are more aggressive or direct (be it a good thing, like goal pursue or a bad thing) and dominant, women are more like passive and unstable ("crazy" if I may). If that girl with the drug had a gripe against you, she did what she did, a guy on the other hand would simply just injure you physically. If a woman has grown in bad conditions and with bad psychology, she will be very crazy and yes, abusive in words (I've met so many of these, I hate this kind). A man on the other hand with a bad psychology will, although probably not so verbal in his abuses, most likely damage someone if he doesn't like something. In a sense of choice men are more abusive, because they chose with a clear head what they do, and they don't feel the guilt of their actions, women otherwise get sensitive and crazy and then cry and oftentimes feel sorry for their behavior. It is though true that you are likely more to have an intelligent conversation with a crazy man, than a crazy woman. With the equal right, there are a ton of abusive women out there, I agree with you, and because they are more verbal, we do bump into them more often.

You have to admit that there are more (not just more, but mainly) conflicts with men. Be it murders, wars, corporate harassment. And it will always be like this because of psychology. Truth is, men run the world, women just follow in our footsteps. Although both have evils...

[Lewellyn]

^pseudo-intellectual masturbation.

[skywake]

That's your problem, you don't even understand that what they did is in fact censorship.

In the loose definition of the word then sure, but if I can still literally walk to the shop next to it and grab a copy? Not going to waste energy on raging about it. Especially when it wasn't that long ago when games in Australia have been outright refused classification (effectively banned) or been modified to avoid being banned. For lack of a better description I'd call that actually censorship and what we're talking about here more-or-less not.

 

Target can do whatever the hell they want, as long as the game is still on sale somewhere in this country the moral crusaders have not won.

[Lewellyn]

In the loose definition of the word then sure, but if I can still literally walk to the shop next to it and grab a copy? Not going to waste energy on raging about it. Especially when a lot of the raging about it is doing nothing but adding fuel to the fire. Also the fact that it wasn't that long ago that games in Australia have been outright refused classification (effectively banned) or been modified to avoid being banned. For lack of a better description I'd call that actually censorship and what we're talking about here more-or-less not.

 

Target can do whatever the hell they want, as long as the game is still on sale somewhere in this country the moral crusaders have not won.

 

cen·sor : to examine books, movies, letters, etc., in order to remove things that are considered to be offensive, immoral, harmful to society, etc.

 

What other definition are you toting around? You think that censorship has to be imposed by the authority of a government or that it has to be wide sweeping by all outlets? Wrong. The private institution that chooses not allow you to express your dissent to a war is still censoring speech. As I have already stated, you don't even understand that this is censorship. Even more problematic is that you don't understand what many others so clearly see - this sets a precedent that can easily be followed. They have bent to a baseless argument, one that is at its core incredibly fallacious.

[mr moose]

what more needs to be said?

 

 

 

lots more, but specifically this:

 

 They have bent to a baseless argument, one that is at its core incredibly fallacious.

 

but more so that it not only condones the mass brainwashing of society by small lobby groups but that it also encourages them to believe they are right.

 

The internet has become a very dangerous place loaded with false information masquerading as facts,  The scary thing is that the average public does not have the time nor resources to sift through what is fact and what is lobby group fiction. This is for everything not just this case.  This is why this case cannot be written off as merely "targets choice" but that the whole set of circumstances that lead to it happening need to be made aware and people need to be educated to prevent it happening again in the future. 

 

If we let this go what will be next?  any game with murder in it?  Now as I said, it won't effect us PC gamers because we for the most part don't even shop there, we have many other options.  But console gamers do not, especially in many country areas where target and Kmart can be the main supply of consoles and games.  

[skywake]

cen·sor : to examine books, movies, letters, etc., in order to remove things that are considered to be offensive, immoral, harmful to society, etc.

We're getting into a semantics argument here. I never said it wasn't censorship, I said that it's a weak form of it and that I don't think it's worth diluting the potency of the word by using it in this case. 

 

The internet has become a very dangerous place loaded with false information masquerading as facts,  The scary thing is that the average public does not have the time nor resources to sift through what is fact and what is lobby group fiction. This is for everything not just this case.  This is why this case cannot be written off as merely "targets choice" but that the whole set of circumstances that lead to it happening need to be made aware and people need to be educated to prevent it happening again in the future. 

 

If we let this go what will be next?  any game with murder in it?  Now as I said, it won't effect us PC gamers because we for the most part don't even shop there, we have many other options.  But console gamers do not, especially in many country areas where target and Kmart can be the main supply of consoles and games.  

If Kmart wants to become god-botherers-r-us then they should go ahead. I'll just stop buying stuff there. Also we live in a digital age where there are so many other options available to us. Even if you live in the country the range of games and markups are so bad at Country Target that you'd want to download it over your crappy country Australia internets anyways. I'll repeat again, I don't like what Target is doing here... I just don't understand why people are getting as worked up as they are over it. Save the rage for when stuff is actually taken out of the market.

 

Also if the worry is that Mr Joe Public is being influenced by a lobby group who is spreading misinformation? In this case making a huge song and dance over it and in particular the anti-feminism crap? Particularly the nasty stuff that's being pushed around? That's the front page of their next campaign peoples. I haven't seen it in this thread but elsewhere it's pretty full on. And if that's what this whole thing has come to I don't want to be on the pro-gamer side anymore.

[Mooshi]

6 pages is a lot of comments to say "Target succomed from pressure to radical feminists and social justice warriors"

[mr moose]

We're getting into a semantics argument here. I never said it wasn't censorship, I said that it's a weak form of it and that I don't think it's worth diluting the potency of the word by using it in this case. 

 

If Kmart wants to become god-botherers-r-us then they should go ahead. I'll just stop buying stuff there. Also we live in a digital age where there are so many other options available to us. Even if you live in the country the range of games and markups are so bad at Country Target that you'd want to download it over your crappy country Australia internets anyways. I'll repeat again, I don't like what Target is doing here... I just don't understand why people are getting as worked up as they are over it. Save the rage for when stuff is actually taken out of the market.

 

Also if the worry is that Mr Joe Public is being influenced by a lobby group who is spreading misinformation? In this case making a huge song and dance over it and in particular the anti-feminism crap? Particularly the nasty stuff that's being pushed around? That's the front page of their next campaign peoples. I haven't seen it in this thread but elsewhere it's pretty full on. And if that's what this whole thing has come to I don't want to be on the pro-gamer side anymore.

 

 

So you want to wait until something is totally banned before doing something about it?  If we do something about it now before it gets to that stage nothing will get banned in the first place.

[skywake]

So you want to wait until something is totally banned before doing something about it?  If we do something about it now before it gets to that stage nothing will get banned in the first place.

If I thought this was a slippery slope that would end in an outright ban? If I didn't think that a lot of the reaction to this is just another small bit in a long line of gamergate BS? If there weren't reports of the petition creators getting vile shit being sent to them? Then sure. I'd say that making some noise now would be worth the effort. As it is? That's not what's happening here and as much as I disagree with the move Target/Kmart are free to sell or not-sell what they want. I also don't see this going any further and ending in a larger ban and I don't really want to be legitimising the views of people who are actually misogynistic dicks. Not just the libertarian-ish "don't limit freedoms" crowd, who I love to identify with at times and is what I see here. Actual misogynistic dicks who should literally go and fuck themselves.

[mr moose]

If I thought this was a slippery slope that would end in an outright ban? If I didn't think that a lot of the reaction to this is just another small bit in a long line of gamergate BS? If there weren't reports of the petition creators getting vile shit being sent to them? Then sure. I'd say that making some noise now would be worth the effort. As it is? That's not what's happening here and as much as I disagree with the move Target/Kmart are free to sell or not-sell what they want. I also don't see this going any further and ending in a larger ban and I don't really want to be legitimising the views of people who are actually misogynistic dicks. Not just the libertarian-ish "don't limit freedoms" crowd, who I love to identify with at times and is what I see here. Actual misogynistic dicks who should literally go and fuck themselves.

 

Have you ever wondered why only men are portrayed as dumb arses in tv and radio ads? why it can never be insinuated that a woman is anything other than perfect or successful.  It all starts with little shit like this and until it's stepped on it grows and grows until you can't have an honest opinion about the prime minister because she is female.

[skywake]

#notaboutcensorship

[nj4ck]

snip

look, I don't want to get into writing a novel right now, so I'm going to make this short. I agree on some parts, on others I don't, let's just agree to disagree. The one thing I do want to say is that modern-day feminists have no more connections to what happened centuries ago than I do. Most of them were born in the 70s and 80s, and the worst sexism they have experienced is being catcalled. Some of them certainly have much more severe experiences than that and of course sexism does still exist in some ways, but for the most part they are just searching for something to be agry about.