#StopGamerGate2014

[Heisenbleurgh]

Let's take a common complaint in the pc gaming community:

"I hate it when game makers focus on their highest paying demographic, consoles. I wish they wouldn't force us pc gamers to bad graphics."

 

now let's replace some words and we have:

"I hate it when game makers focus on their highest paying demographic, males. I wish they wouldn't force us non-white-heretosexual-male gamers to repetitive story lines with repetitive stereotypes where an average middle aged white heterosexual male is the only hero and women are either in need of rescue or oversexualized.."

 

No, feminists don't want to ruin the gaming industry. They just want choice. Everybody wants choice. Nothing wrong with that.

[Guest]

Her actions were sexually promiscuous and immoral, even by her own admittance. While not something I would personally choose to address her as, one could make the case that calling her a slut or a whore was accurate, albeit rude. This is not sexism. It is rude, no doubt. Trying to redirect the accusations made of journalists by stating #GamerGate is sexist is ad hominem. Calling them cowardly is just digging your hole deeper.

 

 

 

Bashing anyone for their sexual choices is harassment in my opinion. I don't think anyone should stick their nose in anyone else's business. I find it downright creepy that people spent their time digging into Quinn's sexual past. 

 

I do agree it was unethical in terms of journalistic integrity, but it is up to the journalists to maintain that. People can have sexual relations with anyone they want, however many times they want, it does not devalue them as human beings. 

 

Gamergate started with the harassment of a woman and continues to do so continuously, calling the supporters' actions sexist is very justified. Not every person is sexist if they agree with some aspects of Gamergate, but the overall series of events that has unfolded is very sexist. 

[BigMic]

 

Let's take a common complaint in the pc gaming community:

"I hate it when game makers focus on their highest paying demographic, consoles. I wish they wouldn't force us pc gamers to bad graphics."

 

now let's replace some words and we have:

"I hate it when game makers focus on their highest paying demographic, males. I wish they wouldn't force us non-white-heretosexual-male gamers to repetitive story lines with repetitive stereotypes where an average middle aged white heterosexual male is the only hero and women are either in need of rescue or oversexualized.."

 

No, feminists don't want to ruin the gaming industry. They just want choice. Everybody wants choice. Nothing wrong with that.

And there is choice. 

 

I will say this again:

I disagree whole heartily with Sarkeesian and her followers. I am not sure what they are trying to achieve. They say they want more variety in game (which there already is). However their actions seem like they want to censor ideas and certain aspects to games by saying that its detrimental to society when there is no evidence to back it up.

 

Also the cult like behavior of "Listen and Believe"  scares me.

What they say and what they do is completely different.

Saying something or some idea in gaming is detrimental to society and is BAD, where there is no evidence, is where a lot of criticism against her is.

 

Yes, we want choice also. Which there is currently plenty as there is tens (if not hundreds) or thousands of games out there and more games that you or I can play in one lifetime.

More playable/leading women in video games will be better and give us a different story/perspective in the game. We are not saying that this is bad.

 

However the way she is making it out to be is there is sexism where none exists. She says its detrimintal to society, which it isnt, and implies that games should not have these ideas/tropes due to the negative effects it apparently causes.

This is censorship.

[Psykomantis00]

Feminism is stupid. 

[cae]

Gamergate started with the harassment of a woman and continues to do so continuously, calling the supporters' actions sexist is very justified. Not every person is sexist if they agree with some aspects of Gamergate, but the overall series of events that has unfolded is very sexist. 

 

I'm still not seeing how it's sexist. She wasn't harassed because of her sex. She was harassed for a number of other reasons (infidelity, the scope of that infidelity, hypocrisy in the past especially dealing with wizardchan, her games, etc.) but not because she is a female. Regardless, it's still ad hominem and not addressing the main issue of the journalistic ethics or lack thereof.

 

People can have sexual relations with anyone they want, however many times they want, it does not devalue them as human beings.

 

I disagree, but mostly because I'm a pedant.

[typographie]

1. IDK why everyone hates Kotaku, plz explain

 

I can't speak for others, but to me Kotaku seems equally likely to post articles about the "Latest Trends in Anime Boobs" as they are to post responsible video game review.

 

That said, the accusations that started #GamerGate were unfounded rumor, posted by a woman's ex-boyfriend of all people. There's definitely a legitimate, adult conversation to be had about objectivity in the gaming media, but I don't think this was ever that discussion.

[Heisenbleurgh]

And there is choice. 

 

I will say this again:

What they say and what they do is completely different.

Saying something or some idea in gaming is detrimental to society and is BAD, where there is no evidence, is where a lot of criticism against her is.

 

Yes, we want choice also. Which there is currently plenty as there is tens (if not hundreds) or thousands of games out there and more games that you or I can play in one lifetime.

More playable/leading women in video games will be better and give us a different story/perspective in the game. We are not saying that this is bad.

 

However the way she is making it out to be is there is sexism where none exists. She says its detrimintal to society, which it isnt, and implies that games should not have these ideas/tropes due to the negative effects it apparently causes.

This is censorship.

Yes there is choice, more than before which is an improvement. Still, it's not perfect and we all know it. We all make fun of how stupid female armor is on video games and yet when women seem to complain about it everyone gets mad? Having the games currently out there and having what feminists want is not mutually exclusive. There's no reason why AAA games can't have as many options for people who are bored of the same protagonist in literally everything. Oh wait, "female bodies take longer to render" right? I guess it was silly to ask.

 

I'll be honest, I think calling game developers sexist is probably not the best term. More like "sexism insensitive" if such a term exists. Most of the time it's not horrible, probably not even intentional. I don't think developers or gamers hate women, but it's as if though developers simply have not been able to really expand and offer female gamers or feminists that alternative. Limiting women's roles in any medium, including games, is bad for society though. If you kept seeing yourself or someone like you as a secondary character or as someone to just be rescued you'd start thinking less of yourself. Representation is important as it opens up people's ideas (specially children's) of what they can be or achieve growing up.

 

 

Feminism is stupid. 

thank you for your valuable input.

[BigMic]

I'll be honest, I think calling game developers sexist is probably not the best term. More like "sexism insensitive" if such a term exists. Most of the time it's not horrible, probably not even intentional. I don't think developers or gamers hate women, but it's as if though developers simply have not been able to really expand and offer female gamers or feminists that alternative. Limiting women's roles in any medium, including games, is bad for society though. If you kept seeing yourself or someone like you as a secondary character or as someone to just be rescued you'd start thinking less of yourself. Representation is important as it opens up people's ideas (specially children's) of what they can be or achieve growing up.

Point one. "sexism insensitive". I dont like this term as you can apply this to everyone and anyone who makes a joke. Saying that portraying women negatively is sexism insensitive is a bit silly when men are also shown to be dickheads, buffoons and scaredycats also. Women have also been showed to be strong in games as well as men.

 

There is a reason why games are more catered to men and show muscular men being the main character.... because men buy more games than women. They play more games than women. This is a hobby for more men than for women, this is why more males are represented and why more games feature a male character to play.

 

Yes, Representation can matter, but not in this case. Why? Because these characters don't represent ALL woman. These characters don't represent you as an individual. They don't represent reality. Women have been in games where they are strong powerful compared to men.

 

Why should game makers be sensitive to all people? Anyone can be offended by anything! Just play the games you like and don't cry about games that misrepresent your gender or don't hold to your ideals.

 

TLDR: Misrepresentation of people in fantasy stay in fantasy, people can see the difference between fantasy and reality and saying that it effects people socially in real life holds no grounds.

 

My two cents

[IdortMasterRace]

Two games with female protagonists. Bam! Equality for all. /s

 

Then go make a game with a female protagonist? If a man is making a game, and wants his protagonist to be male, that's his decision because it's his work.

 

If women are whining about lack of female protagonists, they should get off their arses and make games with female protagonists. Otherwise, shut up, and play other people's creations (where others may want to have their protagonist as male/a dog/an alien/a blob/etc).

 

And yes, there IS equality. There is 100% equality between men and women being able to create male or female protagonists.

[IdortMasterRace]

I am disappointed in the entire internet at this point. 

 

Using stupid, arbitrary arguments to bash women, feminism and each other. 

 

Gamergate is filled with a bunch of obsessive gamers who will do anything to defend their games, even if it means verbally harassing people in the process. 

 

I don't agree entirely with Sarkeesian and her branch of feminism, but I disagree so much more with the actions of Gamergate supporters. 

 

If the start of this argument really was about ethics, then let's continue that discussion. Gamergate is unethical. Harassment is unethical. 

 

Everyone needs to shut their mouths and go back to playing their games unless they have any real, constructive criticisms to make. 

 

Oh look, someone who has been brainwashed into the whole "Anita is being harassed!" and "women are being harassed!" bullshit.

 

Go away.

 

Chrono trigger's protagonist was a male. But it really doens't matter. For every one game that has a female lead, there is a hundred that star a male. 

 

Again, go make a game with a female lead then. You have equality to do that - everyone has equality to make their own protagonist.

 

The debate is that this whole gamergate movement is sexist. How this "movement", if you can even call it that, quickly transformed into verbal harassment against girls and feminism.

 

No it isn't.

[Psykomantis00]

 

 

 

thank you for your valuable input.

 

That's what I'm here for. 

[Poohy14]

Point one. "sexism insensitive". I dont like this term as you can apply this to everyone and anyone who makes a joke. Saying that portraying women negatively is sexism insensitive is a bit silly when men are also shown to be dickheads, buffoons and scaredycats also. Women have also been showed to be strong in games as well as men.

 

There is a reason why games are more catered to men and show muscular men being the main character.... because men buy more games than women. They play more games than women. This is a hobby for more men than for women, this is why more males are represented and why more games feature a male character to play.

 

Yes, Representation can matter, but not in this case. Why? Because these characters don't represent ALL woman. These characters don't represent you as an individual. They don't represent reality. Women have been in games where they are strong powerful compared to men.

 

Why should game makers be sensitive to all people? Anyone can be offended by anything! Just play the games you like and don't cry about games that misrepresent your gender or don't hold to your ideals.

 

TLDR: Misrepresentation of people in fantasy stay in fantasy, people can see the difference between fantasy and reality and saying that it effects people socially in real life holds no grounds.

 

My two cents

 

I totally agree with you on this. One game that has a good female role was Tomb Raider. People are not forced to play video games, they have a choice and if they don't like something about it then they don't have to play it. It's that simple. Plus, its all about how much money a game developer can make, so they tend to use males compared to females more often because it will attract more people instead of a smaller group. Don't know a whole lot of this gamer gate thing nor know what is going on fully besides sexism and something that deals with bad presentation of female characters in video games. Everyone has an opinion but it is neither right nor wrong, "opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance."

[Psykomantis00]

See, and this is why you need to stop talking about it. People are linking this misandy to feminism, potentially causing harm to any future feminism which IS a worthy cause. There are plenty of women's rights being violated across the globe on a daily basis, the fact that so much attention is going to this non-debate and it's being associated with feminism is a tragedy.

 

Honestly, just stop perpetuating this non-debate because the problem it's trying to create does not exist. 

 

The twitter account listed in the OP is literally called Feminist Frequency 

[kamiyo]

I am disappointed in the entire internet at this point. 

 

Using stupid, arbitrary arguments to bash women, feminism and each other. 

 

Gamergate is filled with a bunch of obsessive gamers who will do anything to defend their games, even if it means verbally harassing people in the process. 

 

I don't agree entirely with Sarkeesian and her branch of feminism, but I disagree so much more with the actions of Gamergate supporters. 

 

If the start of this argument really was about ethics, then let's continue that discussion. Gamergate is unethical. Harassment is unethical. 

 

Everyone needs to shut their mouths and go back to playing their games unless they have any real, constructive criticisms to make. 

 

So suddenly I'm an obsessive gamer who will do anything to defend my games, I'm unethical, and I love to harass people. Thanks.

 

The reason why I support GamerGate is the reason why many people support it: I want more transparency in journalism with regards to gaming.

If you want to pin the actions of a few onto me, then you are just as ignorant as Sarkeesian's followers.

I don't support harassment of others, and I'm all for feminism. However, Sarkeesian's definition of feminism, in my opinion, is not feminism.

Now stop speaking for others, because I'm tired of being spoken for.

I am not a misogynist, I am not sexist, I am not dead, I am not a terrorist, and I'm sick and tired of being told what I am. I'm a guy who enjoys video games. That is all.

[Psykomantis00]

 

 I'm sick and tired of being told what I am.

 

So much this. 

[Mattk50]

If anyone wants the entire history of gamergate so far, here you go. http://www.historyof...es-history.html

 

Do your research before constructing an opinion on any subject.

[LinusTech]

I still don't understand why we're giving any of this any attention...

 

But then again, I also fail to understand why anyone visits gaming review sites or why anyone needs a journalist to cover video games... With PC hardware, cars, cooking, frankly 1000 other things, I totally get it. There's a skill set involved, production values are important, etc.. But when it comes to games, the evaluation of which is almost purely subjective, why does anyone look at anything but user scores on metacritic and Amazon reviews?

 

Haven't we already known for YEARS that video game reviews are worthless?

 

Is that the point of all this? Are we hoping that making enough noise about this on the Internet will educate the slack-jawed CoD kiddies about something that should have already been common knowledge? If so, I guess I applaud the effort, but I wonder if anything can penetrate that particular sub-culture of folks...

[Mattk50]

I still don't understand why we're giving any of this any attention...

 

But then again, I also fail to understand why anyone visits gaming review sites or why anyone needs a journalist to cover video games... With PC hardware, cars, cooking, frankly 1000 other things, I totally get it. There's a skill set involved, production values are important, etc.. But when it comes to games, the evaluation of which is almost purely subjective, why does anyone look at anything but user scores on metacritic and Amazon reviews?

 

Haven't we already known for YEARS that video game reviews are worthless?

 

Is that the point of all this? Are we hoping that making enough noise about this on the Internet will educate the slack-jawed CoD kiddies about something that should have already been common knowledge? If so, I guess I applaud the effort, but I wonder if anything can penetrate that particular sub-culture of folks...

 

Now now linus, i know we're all part of the enlightened youtube news and reviews master race but there's a huge number of people who browse these sites as they're used to the format and don't realize the extent of whats going on. A lot of people expressed surprise on other areas of the internet at some of what was going on, advertisers have been pulling out due to not wanting to be associated with ethics violations, and many have declared intent to stop browsing when they had before. I can't explain what convinced these people previously, it's within the normal "theres always someone according to just basic probability who doesn't know". Gamergate is hurting these sites, punishing them for their behavior both pre-gamergate and their deflection attempts since then, and thats the goal i suppose.

[LinusTech]

I guess for me to have any faith that this type of awareness campaign has any impact outside of the people who are already aware of it I would have had to see it work at least once in the past...

As far as I know people still buy Nike shoes and electronics made by, well, anyone so.... who knows, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Nineshadow]

feminism =

 

women >>>>>>>>>>>>>> men

[Majestic]

feminism =

 

women >>>>>>>>>>>>>> men

 

Not really. That is either called misandry, or positive discrimination depending on which arguments are used.

[cae]

I still don't understand why we're giving any of this any attention...

 

But then again, I also fail to understand why anyone visits gaming review sites or why anyone needs a journalist to cover video games... With PC hardware, cars, cooking, frankly 1000 other things, I totally get it. There's a skill set involved, production values are important, etc.. But when it comes to games, the evaluation of which is almost purely subjective, why does anyone look at anything but user scores on metacritic and Amazon reviews?

 

Haven't we already known for YEARS that video game reviews are worthless?

 

Is that the point of all this? Are we hoping that making enough noise about this on the Internet will educate the slack-jawed CoD kiddies about something that should have already been common knowledge? If so, I guess I applaud the effort, but I wonder if anything can penetrate that particular sub-culture of folks...

 

I was in the same boat for a while. "Okay some sites are shady click bait and there's more going on behind the scenes.. don't go to those sites.. check!" (I didn't go there to begin with). I'd check the metacritic, maybe TotalBiscuit if he had something on it, and make my decision from there. Then they dropped that multiple site narrative bomb "Gamers are dead/over." The hornet's nest had been kicked. It's not about the reviews, it's about not getting spit on by sites. Are they consumer advocates, glorified blogs, or industry news sites? I'm not sure, but I know I don't like being spit on, or seeing other gamers feel the same. What is allowing something so toxic to their readership to exist?

 

What if on the WAN show you'd insult, I don't know, Intel owners? "You idiots never use all the potential of those i7s, stop building systems already. No one wants to hear about your video processing; you're probably just making that up, too." Probably not the best thing to win over an audience or respect your current viewership/fans.

 

I'm not particularly hopeful about throwing all the chips in a hashtag that anyone is free to attach to. I'm still new to Twitter, but it seems pretty worthless when it comes to an exchange of ideas. That goal goes even further down the toilet when mainstream media wants the simplest headlines with no thought or exploration involved.

[Nineshadow]

Not really. That is either called misandry, or positive discrimination depending on which arguments are used.

That's what a lot of women think about feminism now.

 

...

[DigitalHermit]

I'll be diving into this one too... @cae has similar points as I and has morre resources on hand than I.

I dont care what she said or who she is. What the people threatening her show is that the gaming community is a bad community. Yes we know there a lot of sour lemons in the gaming community however people need to get their acts together, cant be having this wave based blood feud of people trying to cut eachothers throats.

 

The problem is that there's no evidence of the threats (as in actual screencaps of th threats)

 

Let's take a common complaint in the pc gaming community:

"I hate it when game makers focus on their highest paying demographic, consoles. I wish they wouldn't force us pc gamers to bad graphics."

 

now let's replace some words and we have:

"I hate it when game makers focus on their highest paying demographic, males. I wish they wouldn't force us non-white-heretosexual-male gamers to repetitive story lines with repetitive stereotypes where an average middle aged white heterosexual male is the only hero and women are either in need of rescue or oversexualized.."

 

No, feminists don't want to ruin the gaming industry. They just want choice. Everybody wants choice. Nothing wrong with that.

 

And there is choice. They just need to know where to look. Nobody's forcing them to consume the big AAA titles, nobody's forcing them to listen to the ads about the big AAA titles. Just like how people have little choice but to listen to environmental noise, the bombardment of advertising and articles is inescapable, but tolerable.

[MasterRaceFanBoy]

I wish i didn't had to read that. Some paper cut on my eyes will help.. I hope.