Evolution to be taught in UK primary schools

[mr moose]

You keep going back to the same, misrepresenting and twisting my statements...

You keep going around in circles and jerking yourself with this accusation "you don't understand basic psychology, let alone psychology as it relates to more complex constructs.", instead of just backing up your statements.

You finish by making up your own misty definition of religion and accusing me of using the wrong one, very convenient indeed.

 

You have been a waste of time so far, but at least a fun one.

 

If you actually had addressed the points I have made then the debate would not go in circles. But alas you'd rather resort to derisory discourse than provide a decent rational for your arguments.

It's a bit hard for me to think you understand anything when you keep making self defeating comments then getting upset because I call you on them.

 

You have a bee in your bonnet and are either unwilling or incapable of critical thought.  That, I am afraid, is just as dangerous to human evolution as religion will ever be.

[OlekKing]

If you actually had addressed the points I have made then the debate would not go in circles. But alas you'd rather resort to derisory discourse than provide a decent rational for your arguments.

It's a bit hard for me to think you understand anything when you keep making self defeating comments then getting upset because I call you on them.

 

You have a bee in your bonnet and are either unwilling or incapable of critical thought.  That, I am afraid, is just as dangerous to human evolution as religion will ever be.

I have addressed your points but you're still denying that.

I'm not upset and have no reason to be.

Instead of getting straight to your points you resort to saying that i have a poor understanding of X therefore you don't go any further...

You still haven't provided any good arguments and you decided to create your own definition of religion for your own convenience.

[mr moose]

I have addressed your points but you're still denying that.

Still waiting for responses to:

 

 

How do you propose to want to allow someones right to be religious while simultaneously wanting religion gone?  that's not possible. It's like saying I want to maintain your right to drive a car but I want all cars banned.....

 

Do you honestly believe that religious people are evil and non religious aren't?  it sounds like you have boxed the two and claim one is and the other isn't.    "religion incites them to do it" - is what you said, but the number of religious people committing crimes is not disproportionate to the population, in fact if anything the number of atheists is over represented in the figures:

 

...

 

 

 

  Religion is constructed by the people, it does not construct the people.  The ISIS movement dictate how their religion is important to them and they use it to fight a war,  the old ladies down the road from me construct their religion as guidance to help the poor and give simple meaning to their lives.  If you think they are the same religion and that they are both intrinsically evil then you are too narrow minded to grasp concepts that stretch immensely past this.

 

And:

 

people are damaging, religion is just the tool used by some,  there is just as much (if not more) atrocities carried out by governments and dictators who are heavily against all forms of religious association,  China, Russia and North Korea spring to mind immediately.   These controlling entities have killed people simply because they proclaimed one form of religious belief or another not because they actually did anything wrong.

 

 

 

how do you explain the fact that all people behave the same regardless of whether they adhere to a religion or not?

 

 

 

Instead of getting straight to your points you resort to saying that i have a poor understanding of X therefore you don't go any further...

 

 

I have made plenty of points, like above, but again you are not addressing them nor are you providing any evidence for your claims. This can only point to a lack of understanding.

 

 

You still haven't provided any good arguments and you decided to create your own definition of religion for your own convenience.

 

It's pretty simple:

 

A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

 

 

A point of interest:

 

 

According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world.

 

I'm assuming you've studied most of them to know they are all "dishonest", "stupid beliefs" or "clinging to emotional appeals" or that they ALL fit this description: "Religion is damaging and deserves contempt because it takes advantage of gullible people and exploits them to propagate itself, it teaches people to believe in claims which are not supported by any evidence, to be content with false hopes and false information," ?

 

 

It's pretty simple, humanity is the issue, humanity is the cause, religion is just a tool, if you take away the tool then humanity will find another tool. The problem I have is that this tool gets used for a lot of good, and lot of altruistic people adhere to religion for support, taking that away is bordering on dangerous.   Your problem is you can't accept any of that, you seem to have it in your head that "Leading a delusion-free, truthful life usually is the best path to happiness and good decision making."  for you it maybe, but for many reality tells us otherwise.

 

http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan01/positivepsych.aspx

 

Second point of interest:

 

A study looking at the effect proliferation of choices has had on people's lives shows that the more choices people have, the more miserable they become

 

Quite interesting when you consider that the biggest part of a religious belief is applying limitations, removing options that essentially confine people and thus remove choice related anxiety allowing them to concentrate on the things that make them happy.

[Guest Philosophy]

Good. 

[OlekKing]

Still waiting for responses to:

 

 

 

And:

 

 

how do you explain the fact that all people behave the same regardless of whether they adhere to a religion or not?

 

 

I have made plenty of points, like above, but again you are not addressing them nor are you providing any evidence for your claims. This can only point to a lack of understanding.

 

 

 

It's pretty simple:

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

 

 

A point of interest:

 

I'm assuming you've studied most of them to know they are all "dishonest", "stupid beliefs" or "clinging to emotional appeals" or that they ALL fit this description: "Religion is damaging and deserves contempt because it takes advantage of gullible people and exploits them to propagate itself, it teaches people to believe in claims which are not supported by any evidence, to be content with false hopes and false information," ?

 

 

It's pretty simple, humanity is the issue, humanity is the cause, religion is just a tool, if you take away the tool then humanity will find another tool. The problem I have is that this tool gets used for a lot of good, and lot of altruistic people adhere to religion for support, taking that away is bordering on dangerous.   Your problem is you can't accept any of that, you seem to have it in your head that "Leading a delusion-free, truthful life usually is the best path to happiness and good decision making."  for you it maybe, but for many reality tells us otherwise.

 

http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan01/positivepsych.aspx

 

Second point of interest:

 

Quite interesting when you consider that the biggest part of a religious belief is applying limitations, removing options that essentially confine people and thus remove choice related anxiety allowing them to concentrate on the things that make them happy.

A number of studies suggest that the magic ingredient in religion that provides happiness is social connectedness. Though people, especially in individualistic nations like the United States, talk about religion as an internal or personal belief system, the truth is that religion is rarely done in solitude.

Instead, religion is typically a social activity and research indicates that social ties are one of the most important contributors to happiness. 

That can be just as easily achieved without believing in 3000 year old scribbles by desert dwellers...since this is now understood there's an ever increasing number of secular and atheist groups popping out.

 

You ignore all the horrible things that religion fosters and attribute them 100% to human nature yet you're completely fine using the fact that religion can incite people to do good or be happy as an argument? Plenty studies out there that show non-religious people can be just as happy if not happier, but you ignore that?

I never said that religion is the blame for everything, but quite a lot of things, sorry but just because people might find other reasons to do bad things does not matter that religion should be ignored. That's fucking ridiculous.

You're going to tell me that when children get indoctrinated with religion by genuinely faithful and believing parents, and then never grow out of this delusion, the fault lies only in people?

You must live in parallel reality.

 

You misunderstand my position, i want religion to be gone but i'm not going to go out there and attempt to ban it, i want this to be achieved via self reflection and education, i want to change religious people's minds or simply do the necessary push for them to do it on their own. That was a clear straw man and you've repeated it a few times.

 

Okulicz-Kozaryn found that religion is only associated with greater life satisfaction in countries in which most people are religious. In relatively non-religious nations, religion does not appear to lead to life satisfaction. 

Similarly, Salsman, Brown, Brechting, & Carlson found that feelings of social support mediate the relationship between religiosity and well-being. Religious people report higher levels of social support and higher levels of social support lead to higher levels of psychological well-being.

 

Plenty of lies and delusions can make people happy, but how many times do i have to repeat that this is not a good reason for them to exist and for us to cross our arms and shut up about it.

 

References:

Okulicz-Kozaryn, A. (2010). Religiosity and life satisfaction across nations. Mental Health, Religion & Culture, 13, 155-169.

Salsman, J. M., Brown, T. L., Brechting, E. H., & Carlson, C. R. (2005). The link between religion and spirituality and psychological adjustment: The mediating role of optimism and social support. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 31, 522–535.

[Imaginaerum]

Still have yet to have someone explain to me (on either side) why God couldn't have created evolution to bring us here.

[Digital Brit]

When I first posted this I thought: "Oh, this is interesting, I think I'll share it with all my online tech buddies."

It then proceeded to explode all over the place.

At least it's (relatively [that is a very borderline relatively]) Civil

[OlekKing]

Still have yet to have someone explain to me (on either side) why God couldn't have created evolution to bring us here.

If their god is really all powerful like they describe him to be then there's no reason why he couldn't have.

But that's not the issue, scriptures say otherwise, and they don't want to admit that humans are simply highly evolved primates.

[Imaginaerum]

If their god is really all powerful like they describe him to be then there's no reason why he couldn't have.

But that's not the issue, scriptures say otherwise, and they don't want to admit that humans are simply highly evolved primates.

I think the scriptures were written in the easiest words based on what they saw and understood. It wouldn't surprise me if an ancient text had some screw ups, but history and science itself is filled with as many guesses as religion.

[OlekKing]

I think the scriptures were written in the easiest words based on what they saw and understood. It wouldn't surprise me if an ancient text had some screw ups, but history and science itself is filled with as many guesses as religion.

Are you an apologist?

That is simply untrue. Please don't compare 3000 year old scribbles made by desert dwellers to modern science.

Science isn't filled with "guesses"...

Your post just boggles the mind...are you that ignorant about science and religion or are you being purposefully dishonest?

[mr moose]

A number of studies suggest that the magic ingredient in religion that provides happiness is social connectedness. Though people, especially in individualistic nations like the United States, talk about religion as an internal or personal belief system, the truth is that religion is rarely done in solitude.

Instead, religion is typically a social activity and research indicates that social ties are one of the most important contributors to happiness. 

That can be just as easily achieved without believing in 3000 year old scribbles by desert dwellers...since this is now understood there's an ever increasing number of secular and atheist groups popping out.

 

You ignore all the horrible things that religion fosters and attribute them 100% to human nature yet you're completely fine using the fact that religion can incite people to do good or be happy as an argument? Plenty studies out there that show non-religious people can be just as happy if not happier, but you ignore that?

I never said that religion is the blame for everything, but quite a lot of things, sorry but just because people might find other reasons to do bad things does not matter that religion should be ignored. That's fucking ridiculous.

You're going to tell me that when children get indoctrinated with religion by genuinely faithful and believing parents, and then never grow out of this delusion, the fault lies only in people?

You must live in parallel reality.

 

You misunderstand my position, i want religion to be gone but i'm not going to go out there and attempt to ban it, i want this to be achieved via self reflection and education, i want to change religious people's minds or simply do the necessary push for them to do it on their own. That was a clear straw man and you've repeated it a few times.

 

Okulicz-Kozaryn found that religion is only associated with greater life satisfaction in countries in which most people are religious. In relatively non-religious nations, religion does not appear to lead to life satisfaction. 

Similarly, Salsman, Brown, Brechting, & Carlson found that feelings of social support mediate the relationship between religiosity and well-being. Religious people report higher levels of social support and higher levels of social support lead to higher levels of psychological well-being.

 

Plenty of lies and delusions can make people happy, but how many times do i have to repeat that this is not a good reason for them to exist and for us to cross our arms and shut up about it.

 

References:

Okulicz-Kozaryn, A. (2010). Religiosity and life satisfaction across nations. Mental Health, Religion & Culture, 13, 155-169.

Salsman, J. M., Brown, T. L., Brechting, E. H., & Carlson, C. R. (2005). The link between religion and spirituality and psychological adjustment: The mediating role of optimism and social support. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 31, 522–535.

Many people do consider religion to only be a social construct, individuals can do things religiously, but yes, it is mostly a group activity. And yes there are atheist groups popping up, but that does not change what a religion is, if indeed these groups are forming and constructing a group think but without a deity or spiritual underpinning then that just proves my earlier statements. They are creating a religion to replace the existing one, just like every other religion created.  As I have said before people will create a new religion because they are not happy with the current ones, that is why we have something like 4200, and god knows how many being created every year. You can not remove religion from humanity because it is a part of the human psyche.

 

Regarding horrible things people do, I do not ignore anything, when have I said I'm completely fine with religion inciting people to do good or bad things?  I have been saying that people do good and bad things, some of them use their religion for justification some use their religion to ease their guilt but I have never said people do it because of their religion. I have said people in religion do goods and that is a good thing, but I did not say they only do good because of their religion.  Now who's putting words in mouths?

 

You may not have said that religion is the blame for everything using those exact words, but the quotes in your sig and your vitriolic language toward religious beliefs do indicate a strong propensity  toward total hatred, that combined with your reluctance to respond to some of my points leads to that conclusion.

 

It's not a straw man argument, If I created your goals it would be, but I haven't, they are your words, you want it gone. How do you propose to educate people out of religion? the only way that can happen is if you censor all religious material be it verbal, print or other.  other ideas?

 

Those last two references you made support my claims thank you.  From these findings you can see why creating a religion is an intrinsic part of the human psych.  It is a communal well being activity that promotes community strength. 

 

To repeat my self:

 

...  religion is a major part of the human psyche, it has curbed how cultures have evolved it has been the corner stone of many legal systems, it has helped as many people as it has caused trouble.  It should be a part of history lessons.  It should also be taught in psychology as the effects a belief can have on a person are beyond scientific measure (before any one argues, you have to consider how hard it is to properly study the psychology of anything without crossing ethical boundaries). 

...

 

This does not mean it is the cause, it is still the tool,  I say this because religion is different in different cultures, they have different deities (if any at all) and they are different because each religion is reflective of that groups desires,  Ergo a destructive religion is created by people after power who are by nature destructive, a passive altruistic religion is created by people who are passive and altruistic. The nuns down the road from me would literally suffer an almost fatal panic/anxiety attack if they were told their work in the community had hurt someone.  Juxtaposition this with militant religious governments that behead because someone proclaims they are not of a specific faith.

[Trik'Stari]

 

That sums up perfectly my view of religions and religious wars

[Jerakl]

Wait,evolution wasn't thought in primary schools in UK?

 

Jeez.

 

I was thought both things : evolution in I forgot what class,and creationism at the religion class.

Not taught in Canada, at least where I go to school.

[OlekKing]

Many people do consider religion to only be a social construct, individuals can do things religiously, but yes, it is mostly a group activity. And yes there are atheist groups popping up, but that does not change what a religion is, if indeed these groups are forming and constructing a group think but without a deity or spiritual underpinning then that just proves my earlier statements. They are creating a religion to replace the existing one, just like every other religion created.  As I have said before people will create a new religion because they are not happy with the current ones, that is why we have something like 4200, and god knows how many being created every year. You can not remove religion from humanity because it is a part of the human psyche.

 

Regarding horrible things people do, I do not ignore anything, when have I said I'm completely fine with religion inciting people to do good or bad things?  I have been saying that people do good and bad things, some of them use their religion for justification some use their religion to ease their guilt but I have never said people do it because of their religion. I have said people in religion do goods and that is a good thing, but I did not say they only do good because of their religion.  Now who's putting words in mouths?

 

You may not have said that religion is the blame for everything using those exact words, but the quotes in your sig and your vitriolic language toward religious beliefs do indicate a strong propensity  toward total hatred, that combined with your reluctance to respond to some of my points leads to that conclusion.

 

It's not a straw man argument, If I created your goals it would be, but I haven't, they are your words, you want it gone. How do you propose to educate people out of religion? the only way that can happen is if you censor all religious material be it verbal, print or other.  other ideas?

 

Those last two references you made support my claims thank you.  From these findings you can see why creating a religion is an intrinsic part of the human psych.  It is a communal well being activity that promotes community strength. 

 

To repeat my self:

 

 

This does not mean it is the cause, it is still the tool,  I say this because religion is different in different cultures, they have different deities (if any at all) and they are different because each religion is reflective of that groups desires,  Ergo a destructive religion is created by people after power who are by nature destructive, a passive altruistic religion is created by people who are passive and altruistic. The nuns down the road from me would literally suffer an almost fatal panic/anxiety attack if they were told their work in the community had hurt someone.  Juxtaposition this with militant religious governments that behead because someone proclaims they are not of a specific faith.

Now you're going to classify any group of people or community as a "religion"?

I am talking about the main monotheistic religions, and any other religions that make claims about the existence of a deity, of our origins and about the universe.

When i say i want religion gone i mean that i want the number of religious people to be either 0 or completely insignificant, i don't want any of the current main religions or any others similar to them to have any influence on culture, on politics or education.

I never mentioned censoring even once.

 

If people make some other kind of religion or life ethos that doesn't mislead people or harm anybody, and which has no say in politics then i don't care...Hell, i wouldn't care about any of the current main religions if in the grand scale they were as insignificant as a personal hobby, didn't indoctrinate children and didn't foster heinous acts...etc

 

Haven't you already seen studies and statistics which show religion slowly fading away? The main way to achieve this is via good education, there's still many educated people who are religious/extremely religious but that's pretty much the long term effect of child indoctrination.

 

It will go away/become insignificant eventually, i just wish it happened faster.

 

"It is a communal well being activity that promotes community strength. "

 

This is supposed to be your argument? How is that enough of a reason to ignore all the horrible things that it has fostered, and still is in this very moment?

We can have community and all that crap without basing it on nonsense.

 

Religion is not an intrinsic part of humanity, must i re-iterate this again?

And yet again, if it was that's not an argument for anything, it would simply be a defect which had to be rectified.

 

You have painted a bright shining, happy image of religion, that's not what it is, that's not what it has ever been.

[Imaginaerum]

Are you an apologist?

That is simply untrue. Please don't compare 3000 year old scribbles made by desert dwellers to modern science.

Science isn't filled with "guesses"...

Your post just boggles the mind...are you that ignorant about science and religion or are you being purposefully dishonest?

Dang, so close to having an actual conversation. For some reason that's only possible face to face, now I know.

[mr moose]

Now you're going to classify any group of people or community as a "religion"? No I classify it by it's definition, which I have already linked.

I am talking about the main monotheistic religions, and any other religions that make claims about the existence of a deity, of our origins and about the universe.

When i say i want religion gone i mean that i want the number of religious people to be either 0 or completely insignificant, i don't want any of the current main religions or any others similar to them to have any influence on culture, on politics or education.

I never mentioned censoring even once. The reference to censorship was a question. not an accusation.

 

What's the difference between gone and reducing to the number to 0?

 

If people make some other kind of religion or life ethos that doesn't mislead people or harm anybody, and which has no say in politics then i don't care...Hell, i wouldn't care about any of the current main religions if in the grand scale they were as insignificant as a personal hobby, didn't indoctrinate children and didn't foster heinous acts...etc  In other words not a religion.

 

Haven't you already seen studies and statistics which show religion slowly fading away? The main way to achieve this is via good education, there's still many educated people who are religious/extremely religious but that's pretty much the long term effect of child indoctrination. Yep, I linked to a blog that goes some way to explaining them also,   The other problem is that education will only work to stop religious prevalence  if it isn't a major part of the human psyche. 

 

It will go away/become insignificant eventually, i just wish it happened faster.

 

"It is a communal well being activity that promotes community strength. "

 

This is supposed to be your argument? How is that enough of a reason to ignore all the horrible things that it has fostered, and still is in this very moment?

We can have community and all that crap without basing it on nonsense.  I never said to ignore anything, why do you keep getting this idea that I am ignoring stuff?

 

Religion is not an intrinsic part of humanity, must i re-iterate this again?

And yet again, if it was that's not an argument for anything, it would simply be a defect which had to be rectified. You can say it as much as you want, but that wont change the fact that it actually is.  How can you look at the entire history of humanity and claim religion is not an intrinsic part of it?  nearly every culture the world over has created a religion, it is as much a part of the human psyche as greed, curiosity, self preservation etc.

 

You have painted a bright shining, happy image of religion, that's not what it is, that's not what it has ever been.

I have not painted a bright shinning image of religion, I have called it as it is.  Where do you get this from? This is what religion is whether you like it or not, only parts of it are evil, damaging and dangerous, other parts are not, some parts are irrelevant while some parts are little more than an inconvenience.  You focus on only the dangerous side of it and label all religions the same, therefore whenever someone points out there are good aspects to it you jump like they are one sided and wrong.

[OlekKing]

Dang, so close to having an actual conversation. For some reason that's only possible face to face, now I know.

Your feelings got hurt?

Instead of that pointless post you could have continued.

[OlekKing]

I have not painted a bright shinning image of religion, I have called it as it is.  Where do you get this from? This is what religion is whether you like it or not, only parts of it are evil, damaging and dangerous, other parts are not, some parts are irrelevant while some parts are little more than an inconvenience.  You focus on only the dangerous side of it and label all religions the same, therefore whenever someone points out there are good aspects to it you jump like they are one sided and wrong.

Here we go again, religion is not an intrinsic part of the human psyche; credulity, fear of the unknown, the inability to accept mortality, lack of reason for existence, are.

Religion had a pretty good long run, then we began questioning what we saw, investigating it, observing, experimenting and started getting real answers to many of our questions which were all attributed to religion.

 

Our pre-disposition to be superstitious is simply a flaw which can be corrected, and the manifestation of this flaw only happens with the right surroundings. If you grow up learning to be critical and a skeptic, you wouldn't be religious and you wouldn't be superstitious.

 

If parents weren't indoctrinating their children and those children were getting good education at the same time, there would be no religion or other superstitions.

 

Even if you remove all of the violence and hate fostered by religion, it still remains that it makes extraordinary claims about the universe and our existence, which have absolutely no basis in reality and not a single shred of evidence to back them up. It teaches people false hopes and to accept information on faith.

[mr moose]

Here we go again, religion is not an intrinsic part of the human psyche; credulity, fear of the unknown, the inability to accept mortality, lack of reason for existence, are.

Religion had a pretty good long run, then we began questioning what we saw, investigating it, observing, experimenting and started getting real answers to many of our questions which were all attributed to religion.

 

Our pre-disposition to be superstitious is simply a flaw which can be corrected, and the manifestation of this flaw only happens with the right surroundings. If you grow up learning to be critical and a skeptic, you wouldn't be religious and you wouldn't be superstitious.

 

If parents weren't indoctrinating their children and those children were getting good education at the same time, there would be no religion or other superstitions.

 

Even if you remove all of the violence and hate fostered by religion, it still remains that it makes extraordinary claims about the universe and our existence, which have absolutely no basis in reality and not a single shred of evidence to back them up. It teaches people false hopes and to accept information on faith.

 

you are more than willing to call out religious people for having a spurious belief  yet you won't accept the one fundamental part of humanity that is probably the largest observable component of the human psyche. 

 

Well done.

[Killeemegee]

If you learned about dinosaurs in primary school, that was the evolution segment.

[Hidden Orange]

If you learned about dinosaurs in primary school, that was the evolution segment.

Charizard's real?!

 

Seriously though, I don't remember being taught about dinosaurs. All we got were rocks and stuff. Evolution only came into play in biology in high school. Then again, I'm not from the UK so I don't know how things work there.

[OlekKing]

you are more than willing to call out religious people for having a spurious belief  yet you won't accept the one fundamental part of humanity that is probably the largest observable component of the human psyche. 

 

Well done.

Religion is a manifestation of the pre-dispositions i mentioned.

If the pre-history and history of our species had been slightly different and modern science began much earlier, are you going to tell me that religion would be as prevalent as it is today or even existent at all?

 

What do you even mean by accepting it? You mean crossing my arms and keeping my mouth shut? You mean accepting that religion is something real and that i can observe it? That last one isn't so hard...

 

I accept the reality of our flawed predispositions which have led to the construct of religion along with all of its superstition and claims about reality, that i accept.

 

That doesn't mean that i'll just sit here and think "Oh well, that's just how we are, no point in bothering myself by criticizing it and attempting to change it!"

That's the message you're largely conveying.

 

I want religion to be gone, i want it to lose its influence over so many aspects of our lives and surroundings, i want everyone to step out of this delusion and instead come together and work as one, as a species.

It is possible, it is slowly happening, i just want it to happen faster.

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

I want religion to be gone, i want it to lose its influence over so many aspects of our lives and surroundings, i want everyone to step out of this delusion and instead come together and work as one, as a species.

It is possible, it is slowly happening, i just want it to happen faster.

 

With an attitude like that, you are pushing back progress; the very progress that you wanted to accelerate. You really do not understand basic psychology here, do you?

[OlekKing]

With an attitude like that, you are pushing back progress; the very progress that you wanted to accelerate. You really do not understand basic psychology here, do you?

Instead of throwing derogatory remarks at me, be so kind and explain to me what you deem me to be ignorant of and move the discussion forward...

If the best you can do is basically insult me (which you're free to do by any means) you're wasting time.

[MF Patrick]

That's great. 

Too bad something like this will never happen in Italy.

The Vatican influence is just too big.