Ukrainian military plane shut down by Pro-Russians,killing 49 people...

[Zeke]

the plane has 3 more engines

Use three more AKs, duh...

[soup]

But they are living in Ukranian soils don't they? What I'm saying is they should leave Donetsk, Luvansnk, Mariupol, Svetstopol wand whatever the hell districts theses pro-russian agressors are digging in.

Bit of a simplistic argument there.

[soup]

the plane has 3 more engines

 IMAGINATION :-

  A round goes through a fuel line, wing cavity fills with fuel, when it reaches a flammable concentration, a hot spot ignites the fuel causing an explosion which destroys the wing spar causing a wing to fail.

Convuloted and unlikely I agree but not impossible.

Yes four engined aeroplnes can fly quite well on three engines but they tend not to fy very well on only one wing.

[Albatross]

Poor people. 

 

While our government talks about supporting Ukraine things get worse. Time for action, like we do for every other country that gets hit with a rebellion or the like. Also, I can't believe Russia thought we would believe them about not sending tanks over to the separatists. Yea, sure. <_<

 

Anyone have any good places to go to keep up on this? I hate using American news stations because they all have agendas of their own and it pisses me off.

 

[szewei]

Poor people.

While our government talks about supporting Ukraine things get worse. Time for action, like we do for every other country that gets hit with a rebellion or the like. Also, I can't believe Russia thought we would believe them about not sending tanks over to the separatists. Yea, sure. <_<

Anyone have any good places to go to keep up on this? I hate using American news stations because they all have agendas of their own and it pisses me off.

I usually get my news from vice they are pretty good

[kungfury7]

Bit of a simplistic argument there.

 

Well, educate me then. Are those legitimately Ukraine's territory or not?

[wjdobie]

This is gonna end up causing WWIII -.-

[Fred Castellum]

This is gonna end up causing WWIII -.-

I doubt it... but it could end up that way if everyone keeps thinking that way.

[Leonard]

I thought you made a "plane" joke.

Check his avatar, most drunkards just say what comes to the forefront of their brain with out checking how it can be perceived. He meant no harm. 

 

This is just wrong and i too want to go to Switzerland or Netherlands all you hear from the news about them are cheese, butter and meat, three things i love, got to be good living there! :lol:

[soup]

Well, educate me then. Are those legitimately Ukraine's territory or not?

 

Depends what you mean by legitematelly.  Remember that area was part of the USSR .  When the USSR was dissolved a lot of ethnically Russians found themselves outwith Russian borders they MAY have considered the USSR as a sort of extended Russia.  Since the dissolution they are now consideered as in Ukraine but in their minds they are stil Russian.  They want a return of Ukraine to the fold and are willing to fight for that return.  'Just' a case of one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Your argument boils down to send them home but they ARE home. They want a return to being THE Ukraine an area of the USSR governed from Russia

[kungfury7]

Depends what you mean by legitematelly.  Remember that area was part of the USSR .  When the USSR was dissolved a lot of ethnically Russians found themselves outwith Russian borders they MAY have considered the USSR as a sort of extended Russia.  Since the dissolution they are now consideered as in Ukraine but in their minds they are stil Russian.  They want a return of Ukraine to the fold and are willing to fight for that return.  'Just' a case of one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Your argument boils down to send them home but they ARE home. They want a return to being THE Ukraine an area of the USSR governed from Russia

 

I don't see how your statement contradicts my previous comment. Sure in their mind they are Russian, but the land is not theirs to decide; it's Ukraine's territory and has been for years. You said it yourself that those territories became Ukraine's after the USSR dissolution right? So it doesn't really matter what their "minds" think, if they wanted to belong to Russia, the only thing they could do is to take their "mind" back to Russia, and leave Ukrainian soils behind. This is not about territory struggle like 50 years ago anymore, territories line have been settled for good.

[soup]

I don't see how your statement contradicts my previous comment. Sure in their mind they are Russian, but the land is not theirs to decide; it's Ukraine's territory and has been for years. You said it yourself that those territories became Ukraine's after the USSR dissolution right? So it doesn't really matter what their "minds" think, if they wanted to belong to Russia, the only thing they could do is to take their "mind" back to Russia, and leave Ukrainian soils behind. This is not about territory struggle like 50 years ago anymore, territories line have been settled for good.

 Most people fight due to what they 'think'.  Who decided this boundary change was for good(ever)?

No doubt some Yugoslavians felt the boundaries imposed on them at the end of WWII was for ever didn't stop it splitting into serbia croatia macedonia etc

No boundarie without 100% bcking suits everybody even a 90% for leaves 10% unhappy and if only 1% of that number are willing to fight for what they thaink of as right... .  Don't get me wrong I am not pro Ukraine being back under the Russian fold I am just saying I can understand where they are coming from.  The 'if you prefer it there go there even if all your family/roots/job etc is here' argument is simplistic in the extreme.

[Nineshadow]

 Most people fight due to what they 'think'.  Who decided this boundary change was for good(ever)?

No doubt some Yugoslavians felt the boundaries imposed on them at the end of WWII was for ever didn't stop it splitting into serbia croatia macedonia etc

No boundarie without 100% bcking suits everybody even a 90% for leaves 10% unhappy and if only 1% of that number are willing to fight for what they thaink of as right... .  Don't get me wrong I am not pro Ukraine being back under the Russian fold I am just saying I can understand where they are coming from.  The 'if you prefer it there go there even if all your family/roots/job etc is here' argument is simplistic in the extreme.

I don't know how the Ukrainians fit in the USSR,but if it was like in Moldova I'd not wonder why they don't want to go back there.

My grand grand father had a friend who used to tell us stories.He lived through both World Wars and that's what most of them were about.

Once he told us about the Russians in WW2.Romania has allied with the Axis because last time we had been with the Alies.

We had been fighting against the USSR for some time along with Germany,but then the Russians started pushing out and Romania was right in the middle of the fight : Russia, Germany, Hungary and Bulgaria(and Turkey too).We had already lost 3/4 of the national teritory and it would have been a disaster if we had kept fighting,so instead we switched to the Allies.

We managed to fight back against Nazi Germany and their allies . However, these situations also lead to coming in the USSR's influence region.They anexed Basarabia, a Romanian province ( now Moldova Republic , it still hasn't joined Romania).This friend of my grand grand father's was in Basrabia when it was anexed to the USSR.The news came fast and he embarked on a train to Romania.The train was stopped and everyone ,including women and children, were taken out of the train.This was around November and in these places it wasn't cold yet.They took all of the people,some even in shorts, to Russian prisons and, in December, most of them were taken on an open field in Siberia.You can imagine the cold and how bad it was for those people there...they didn't have anything!

This old man told me that around 8 000 people were taken to that place.By March, only 10 more were alive (including him).Then, the Russians come to inspect and left.In the meanwhile, the survivors built themselves a house,gathered resources ,etc. The next winter , the same thing happened.

[kungfury7]

 Most people fight due to what they 'think'.  Who decided this boundary change was for good(ever)?

No doubt some Yugoslavians felt the boundaries imposed on them at the end of WWII was for ever didn't stop it splitting into serbia croatia macedonia etc

No boundarie without 100% bcking suits everybody even a 90% for leaves 10% unhappy and if only 1% of that number are willing to fight for what they thaink of as right... .  Don't get me wrong I am not pro Ukraine being back under the Russian fold I am just saying I can understand where they are coming from.  The 'if you prefer it there go there even if all your family/roots/job etc is here' argument is simplistic in the extreme.

 

Well, let's just say we're both correct then, but sentiment VS official territorial agreement or treaty, I would go with the latter. It's like digging an old grave that has been there for a long time.

 

Let's talk about something else. The way I see it, both Russia and US will benefit from this. The Ukranians needed weapons, who are they gonna buy from? The US. On the other hand, the pro-russians will be happily supplied in arms and munitions by Russia, thus creating a proxy forces for Russia shall they need it in the future... it's the cold war with proxy soldiers all over again. But who will least benefit from this situation? Ukraine of course.. this conflict will bleed the country dry as all money will have to be spent on armament, discarding other needed aspects of the country like education, social welfare, etc. Even worse, Ukraine cannot produce their own natural gas(or some kind of oil or fuel, i'm not sure), thus they are forced to buy it from China. And who's China's greatest allies? Russia.. it's not a coincidence that Chinese rose their prices at this recent moment. Ukraine, sadly, will bleed itself dry if the situation continues. Oh yea, BTW, Ukraine's recently sworn in President is actually US's puppet, so yeah.

[soup]

 sentiment VS official territorial agreement or treaty, I would go with the latter. It's like digging an old grave that has been there for a long time.

 

.

 

Humans tend to work on "feelings" though.  C.F. Lots of issues that are designated morally right even if legaly wrong.  Sentiment/feelings over legality?

[LOST TALE]

Harper is worse. Just because he doesnt have a rocket launcher, doesnt make him innocent.

[LOST TALE]

Humans tend to work on "feelings" though.  C.F. Lots of issues that are designated morally right even if legaly wrong.  Sentiment/feelings over legality?

Neither Mercy nor Justice.

The priority is a third variable

 

As a person with dominant logic, neither. I hate when bad feelings reach thre treshold of affecting decisions or otherwise causing discomfort.

Laws,  as everything , are a part of reality, nothing more. The third variable is whatever is best. Sometimes its obvious, sometimes its open to debate. But its completely disconnected from Autority, Give-back, social placement and laws. Principles independant of those. Principlies that rely on versatile understanding of the world. So then for exemple, I learned macro-economy as part of not being an oblivious citizen.

Sentiments<Best>Legality

[Nineshadow]

Putin :

Ahahahaha!

[soup]

Harper is worse. Just because he doesnt have a rocket launcher, doesnt make him innocent.

 Harper?

[LOST TALE]

 Harper?

Stephen Harper, present prime minister of Canada

[soup]

Stephen Harper, present prime minister of Canada

 

Oh right (something about accounting or bribes or some such yeah?).  Not being Canadian I don't follow Canadian politics, heck I hardly follow the British version .

Beyond headline stuff I really haven't got a clue, about politics.

[LOST TALE]

Oh right (something about accounting or bribes or some such yeah?).  Not being Canadian I don't follow Canadian politics, heck I hardly follow the British version .

Beyond headline stuff I really haven't got a clue, about politics.

Too bad, hopefuly you don't vote for what you dont know, might be bad.

[soup]

Too bad, hopefuly you don't vote for what you dont know, might be bad.

 

I did say "beyond headline", not totally oblivious.

[LOST TALE]

I did say "beyond headline", not totally oblivious.

I don't know about headlines there.

goodbye...