One myth down.. more to come..

[NorKris]

1 minute ago, RevGAM said:

if the TIM is thick enough between the 2 surfaces, it will act as an insulator. I've seen this mentioned many times here and elsewhere. Personally, I think some materials are prone to be more insulative than others.

this part is true. 100% it is.

 

the BIG BUT here is that mounting pressure would make sure that there is no  "thickness". 

so the question would then be:   should i test not tightning it all the way down? or use spacers

or in other words:  should i test an user error as a part of this

 

of course not, thats ridiculous

 

[RevGAM]

48 minutes ago, NorKris said:

use spacers

As @Agall already indicated, you need to use spacers, which I call a gasket, as it is rigid and will retain the thickness of TIM that you need to stimulate a thicker application. If you don't, then you CANNOT prove your belief. 

[NorKris]

3 minutes ago, RevGAM said:

As @Agall already indicated, you need to use spacers, which I call a gasket, as it is rigid and will retain the thickness of TIM that you need to stimulate a thicker application. If you don't, then you CANNOT prove your belief. 

 

my belief is that:   "the coolers mounting pressure will make sure that  u can put so much paste u want, it wont matter"

is this proven by me: Yes
is this proven by GN: Yes

is this proven by others: yes

 

thats it. 

[RevGAM]

9 minutes ago, NorKris said:

 

my belief is that:   "the coolers mounting pressure will make sure that  u can put so much paste u want, it wont matter"

is this proven by me: Yes
is this proven by GN: Yes

is this proven by others: yes

 

thats it. 

Your English has failed you, Kris. You have proven the above. You have NOT disproven @freeagent's statement. 

[NorKris]

2 minutes ago, RevGAM said:

Your English has failed you, Kris. You have proven the above. You have NOT disproven @freeagent's statement. 

can we ask him if he ment  too much paste + user error?

cuz im pretty sure  mrFree wants ppl to mount their coolers correctly 

[freeagent]

I mentioned with TIMs that are known to act as insulators. AS5 is one of them. SYY-157, Thermalright TFX, etc. Mainly thick TIMs that do not pump out, is what I meant. Get a thinner TIM on an IHS that has been lapped (properly) and it should for sure squeeze out.

[NorKris]

then we can put this spacer, and not mounting correctly to rest. these thicker pastes are not available in norway so im not going to try to get them for this test. but it would not make any difference. 

[RevGAM]

1 hour ago, freeagent said:

I mentioned with TIMs that are known to act as insulators. AS5 is one of them. SYY-157, Thermalright TFX, etc. Mainly thick TIMs that do not pump out, is what I meant. Get a thinner TIM on an IHS that has been lapped (properly) and it should for sure squeeze out.

Can you explain what you think would be a valid test of your statement, since apparently Kris cannot get the above-mentioned TIMs, unless you perhaps know of a substitute that's available in Norway?

[NorKris]

yee give me that thicccc stuff  

[RevGAM]

2 hours ago, freeagent said:

I mentioned with TIMs that are known to act as insulators. AS5 is one of them. SYY-157, Thermalright TFX, etc. Mainly thick TIMs that do not pump out, is what I meant. Get a thinner TIM on an IHS that has been lapped (properly) and it should for sure squeeze out.

Maybe you can also clarify if you mean thick as in the thickness of the layer of TIM, which directly relates to what @Agallsuggested, or viscosity,  which I suspect Kris can prove without buying from overseas if he has thinner and thicker TIMs at hand. Or... both?

[freeagent]

2 hours ago, RevGAM said:

Maybe you can also clarify if you mean thick as in the thickness of the layer of TIM, which directly relates to what @Agallsuggested, or viscosity,  which I suspect Kris can prove without buying from overseas if he has thinner and thicker TIMs at hand. Or... both?

I mean both, viscosity, and the thickness of the layer. I spread till perfection.. hard to explain while I am sitting in the shitter at work. I will come back after a shower and a meal.

[RevGAM]

6 hours ago, NorKris said:

yee give me that thicccc stuff  

 

3 hours ago, freeagent said:

I mean both, viscosity, and the thickness of the layer. I spread till perfection.. hard to explain while I am sitting in the shitter at work. I will come back after a shower and a meal.

And there you have it. He's referring to BOTH viscosity AND the thickness of the layer of the TIM.

Yes, this would generally be because of user error that there would be a thicker layer, however, there's also density and not all CPUs, GPUs, coolers and TIMs need the same tension. So, back to the testing for you, and make it snappy!

[Beerzerker]

On 4/9/2024 at 12:14 PM, DreamCat04 said:

But to answer that question, no you can't screw up your temps by using too much paste. I'm writing this for everyone, not just you specifically. As long as enough mounting pressure gets applied, the excess will just squish out, leaving the minimum needed in between CPU and cooler

^THIS^

Something I've known for a long time now and it happens regardless of TIM used. The amount of time for it to fully occur can vary but eventually it does and what's left is what you've got.
Don't forget there is another factor and that's the chip's lid and cooler/block's flatness to each other, that will also determine the amount of TIM that comes out and overall cooling efficiency too.
If pressures are uneven across the cooler/block to the chip's lid, that will induce variance of cooling efficency (Hotspot) depending on where these components are tighter or looser to each other respectively - Plus that will induce "One-Sided" pumpout as well.

Speaking of pumpout, that just a natural effect of repeated heating and cooling cycles of these components as the system is used (Thermal expansion/contraction) so you will see that effect happening anyway.
I've layed that out before over at TPU and can do it again if I have to but if you think about it in the above context, the reason(s) why pumpout happens starts making sense.

[RevGAM]

3 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

^THIS^

Something I've known for a long time now and it happens regardless of TIM used. The amount of time for it to fully occur can vary but eventually it does and what's left is what you've got.
Don't forget there is another factor and that's the chip's lid and cooler/block's flatness to each other, that will also determine the amount of TIM that comes out and overall cooling efficiency too.
If pressures are uneven across the cooler/block to the chip's lid, that will induce variance of cooling efficency (Hotspot) depending on where these components are tighter or looser to each other respectively - Plus that will induce "One-Sided" pumpout as well.

Speaking of pumpout, that just a natural effect of repeated heating and cooling cycles of these components as the system is used (Thermal expansion/contraction) so you will see that effect happening anyway.
I've layed that out before over at TPU and can do it again if I have to but if you think about it in the above context, the reason(s) why pumpout happens starts making sense.

I think I read what you wrote on my question about worst TIMs or somewhere. IIRC, pump-out is worse on delidded CPUs, and more dense (less viscous?) TIMs will be less inclined to pump-out. Did I get that right?

[Beerzerker]

29 minutes ago, RevGAM said:

I think I read what you wrote on my question about worst TIMs or somewhere. IIRC, pump-out is worse on delidded CPUs, and more dense (less viscous?) TIMs will be less inclined to pump-out. Did I get that right?

More or less.
Thinner TIM's naturally flow better than thick ones do, so seeing more pumpout with a thinner TIM is expected. This however isn't (Purely) dependent on whether the chip is delidded or not but delidding a chip can have an effect to that end.

I didn't post in your thread but I do believe you did see what I had posted in another thread:
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/pump-out-effect-is-it-real-or-is-it-nonsense-lets-discuss.283046/post-4544811

[Godlygamer23]

To properly test the notion that more paste being applied equals higher temperatures, you need to use material that is sufficiently rigid, or seal off the area. Two ways to achieve that - using thermal pads instead of thermal paste, or using a gasket for sealing.

 

This test has demonstrated nothing because the paste was pushed out by the mounting pressure as stated above. Even so, if you're testing thermal material, and you apply a certain amount of mounting pressure(i.e. you only draw down the cooler by a certain amount, ensuring the use of a spring system to hold the cooler in place), then as the paste heats up, it will naturally become less viscous. If the system is sitting parallel to the mounting direction, the cooler will sink further down, pushing more paste out, and decrease the space that exists between the cold plate/heatpipes, increasing thermal transfer. If the system is sitting perpendicular to the mounting direction, then it might start to pull away, decreasing contact, and decreasing thermal transfer.

 

This is also dependent on the mounting system that's used as well, I think primarily for the system sitting perpendicular to the mounting direction. The Kraken x60 used a bracket that the pump/block sat in, providing more even pressure around it, so as long as it kept the cooler snug enough, any loss in thermal transfer would flatten out.

 

All this is to say...the test didn't show anything. The paste was pushed out by the mounting pressure, which allowed it achieve expected thickness.

[Godlygamer23]

34 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

More or less.
Thinner TIM's naturally flow better than thick ones do, so seeing more pumpout with a thinner TIM is expected. This however isn't (Purely) dependent on whether the chip is delidded or not but delidding a chip can have an effect to that end.

I didn't post in your thread but I do believe you did see what I had posted in another thread:
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/pump-out-effect-is-it-real-or-is-it-nonsense-lets-discuss.283046/post-4544811

And pump out I believe is purely where temperatures fluctuate, primarily for example when high load tests or tasks are run on a specific schedule. The pumping out effect is purely from the component expanding and contracting, and also along with making the TIM less viscous, exacerbating the pump out effect. 

[Beerzerker]

14 minutes ago, Godlygamer23 said:

And pump out I believe is purely where temperatures fluctuate, primarily for example when high load tests or tasks are run on a specific schedule. The pumping out effect is purely from the component expanding and contracting, and also along with making the TIM less viscous, exacerbating the pump out effect. 

Exactly!

That's the jist of what I was getting at, the viscosity of what TIM is used along with other factors being the variables contributing to the extent of this effect.

[freeagent]

Pump out is not something I have dealt with in the last 20 years or so.. if ever

[thrasher_565]

heat gose in the the past and like any thing that needs cooling its all about surface area. too thicc and the heat wont tansfur fast enough and heat soke. too thin and it get too hot and also not cool. its been proven that more presher on the cpu the better the cooling but increase the risk of braking something. cpus are not flat nore is the blocks as there made cheaply. can you lap the cpu and block ya but times you dont see much performance its not like the athon 64 days... gn gave up on this and had come to the concussion that there too many variables to control when your talking 1 degree or less between past...

 

i dont see the point in arguing over 1c... imo

 

but like most coolers you bottom out on a plastic stop so its guod n tite

Edited April 11 by thrasher_565

[NorKris]

5 hours ago, Godlygamer23 said:

This test has demonstrated nothing because the paste was pushed out by the mounting pressure as stated above.

this going to happen all the time

[Godlygamer23]

4 hours ago, NorKris said:

this going to happen all the time

If you don't control mounting pressure or the TIM. Using a thermal pad will alleviate that issue(also allowing specific thicknesses to be chosen) and allow a proper test to be performed. 

[NorKris]

9 minutes ago, Godlygamer23 said:

If you don't control mounting pressure or the TIM. 

is "mounting it down all the way" control mounting pressure? 

[TatamiMatt]

27 minutes ago, NorKris said:

is "mounting it down all the way" control mounting pressure? 

Not scientifically, at least, if you want a properly controlled test youll have to torque the threads accordingly

[Godlygamer23]

42 minutes ago, NorKris said:

is "mounting it down all the way" control mounting pressure? 

Technically no. "Mounting it down all the way" is subjective. 

 

Since we're using thermal paste as the TIM, tightening it down further and further results in continual spreading of the paste that corresponds to how far down you've turned the hardware. So in order to control that spreading, you have to control how far you turn the hardware unless you have some way of sealing that area off to prevent thermal paste from spreading beyond a certain amount.