What do we do now?

[Jhacklerone]

I think this is linus learning about the complex issues of the corporations he has criticized (though often more fairly than others). Once you hit a certain scale there will always be some degree of issues.  I really do hope they manage to improve some of the stuff but lets face it, no one understands what its like to be in these higher positions till they are there. I remember  promoting people to management before they understood the work I was doing and thought I wasn't lol. everyone is always shocked if and when they get there and it eventually crushes down. And this is regarding much lower levels of management.

I am not gonna pretend there where not serious issues on his part, however I also understand and I don't think it is going to get easier.

 

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

On 8/17/2023 at 1:07 AM, Articate said:

It's just another nothing-burger. "We take it seriously, we'll take necessary steps". Nothing apologetic towards Madison. It's just a PR nightmare they need to solve. It doesn't feel like they feel remorseful that we're even in this position, all things said are simply the correct response to a PR issue.

There is absolutely no way to handle this correctly if such things go public:

• You respond like happened here, and people are pissed off that it's just a sham.
• You get ultra defensive, and folks assume you're guilty.
• You throw the alleged perpetrator under the bus, zero questions asked, now you potentially fired someone innocent and ruined their life.
• You don't respond and folks will assume you want to cover it up and get pissed off at that.
• ...

Basically, this should have been handled entirely differently from both sides.

[Amitan117]

It isnt about if you make mistakes... its about what you do WHEN you make mistakes. The important thing now is to be honest and transparent in your efforts to make it right. 

[mdk777]

37 minutes ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

I think it says enough about LMG working conditions that they haven't unionized.

Pretty small shop to attract UNION attention.

 

To all those who claim that only haters are posting:

Yeah, massive Hubris and Ego attracts watchers who rejoice at the schadenfreude.

But you know that isn't all bad. 

Years ago, APPLE really ticked me off with not only their walled ecosystem, but also their arrogance and disdain for customer service.

 

So, I have been buying PC gear and Samsung ever since.

 

Competition is GOOD.

 

ONE VOICE PONTIFICATING ....ALWAYS bad.

So, if you love their content, and don't mind being told that you are evil if you voice a dissenting opinion.....well, then you don't have to read this thread.

But, having a voice and an opinion is considered not just a privilege, but a right worth defending by some.

 

Yeah, you can roll out the old man shouting at the clouds meme....but there are a couple Billion people in the world that really wish they had the freedom to post what they believe.

 

 

 

  

[GoStormPlays]

51 minutes ago, cornholio509 said:

I think haters and supporters need to put down their pitchforks . Attacking each other for little to no reason doesn't make sense . Especially when we all agree on the same premise that Linus fucked up . 

 

As for the maddison accusations we know nothing yet . However some are willing to make comments about who it is and potentially damage someone's career without any proof . Stop the witch hunt . As plausible as it is that maddison was harassed . its also just as plausible that this is comments from a disgruntled ex employee . Yet people here are pressuring employees to speak up publicly . Let not create more controversy and wait for results of the investigation .  

 

THE FACTS 

• Billet labs controversy is dealt with .
• LMG and linus apologised  for their conduct and poor QC on videos . Yes it was cringe with misplaced jokes . That said they are keeping to their word so far . Seems like they are making strides to improve on that end . 
• Tarran is taking the helm and implementing procedures to improve things from his time in larger companies . 
• LMG staff are been re trained
• Maddison's accusations are been taken seriously by Linus , Yvonne and the CEO Tarran . Internal investigation 
• Third party investigator also involved to remove bias from findings . 

THis is the acts so far .

I think there are people here on the  HATE TRAIN that want to see someone fail . I dont think they would care who it was . I could nearly bet any channel substantial enough to face criticism over a controversy would be attacked . SOme people need a cause . what better of a cause than someone who became self made and try to burn his reputation to the ground . I dont think LMG could win because no matter what form the apology took . People would still say it isnt genuine . 

 

 

A few thing i think LMG should do going forward . 

• Every employee should have access to a code of conduct set by the company from now on . It should be plainly written so even an idiot can understand . 
• Employees should not by any means make comments about other channels  outside of LMG . Especially when they dont know the inner workings of those companies .
• Everytime a new hire comes in they should be immediately be brought in and given all relevant information needed . This should include a pamphlet with who to contact in the case of workplace abuse . Phone numbers , emails etc. 
• With the coming out of emily  , the abuse claims and the sheer pressure of workloads your staff have . Maybe it might be time to have someone for mental health available for staff . Be they an outside source or employed as a councillor . 
• Regular meetings between staff and managers in every department to gauge if workloads are magable .    
• Lastly this one is for Linus . You need to treat your company and employees as an investment . You can still have friends and have a fun work environment . You need to act more like the owner of the company . 

 

 

AS for the GN and LMG bias going on . Linus deserved this humbling experience . LMG as a whole reach a wider audience than most in the tech space . So their benchmarks , testing and statements and conduct in general have a larger impact than anyone realises . Steves first article was based on pure fact . No issues with it . Linus made a braindead comment about journalistic practises .  Steve then went on a tirade for the second article . It could have been handles better by both sides in the beginning . It wasn't lets leave it at that . 

 

As for those screaming for LTT videos . Seriously you want what's possibly bad information because of lack of fact checks and overworked employees . LMG needs to restructure and retrain staff . It cant do that and publish videos 7 days a week for our convenience . 

 

ON a final note what do we do ? No point arguing here on the forum since none of it is constructive at this stage . Posts are starting to devolve into overly defensive or overly offended posts . or we are pulling in toxic posts of reddit from each community . Our job is done here . Linus and LMG as a whole have been left with a very humbling experience . I will wait to see if change happens . Then i will pass judgement on if LMG deserves my watch time in the future . 

I agree with pretty much everything here

[Thomas Picard]

Holy shit the vitriol in these threads about the apology/GN/Maddison/etc.

 

Dude made a mistake (or is being a good boss and owning up for the mistakes of his people). Got called out. Apologised. Promised to do better, and so far has followed through. How would you feel if you made a mistake at work and got fired, cancelled, and crucified in the public eye for it. Half the folks here are acting like he murdered someone and posted it for a sponsor segment for machetes inc. Mistakes happen. Literally no one on Earth knows what they don't know until the "oh shit" moment.

 

I thought this thread was going to be about accountability on what they said they'd do and ideas for them to do even better...maybe let's start there eh?

[smirb]

# originally posted on GN’s allegations thread

 

 

Not trying to defend Linus, but y’all seem to just repeat history…

 

There is an allegory of WWII out there titled “(The) Terrible Things.” Once the “Terrible things” do their thing and destroy the lives of innocent beings, the others who used to live in harmony with the victims start complaining about them once they are gone. And it’s not “The terrible things should be stopped,” it’s “I’m glad the victims are gone. (Insert complaint that did not exist).”

 

When terrible things happened to Linus, people start complaining even though they were semi-fine with it initially.

 

[smirb]

Sure, some of Linus’s problems are unacceptable, but please, stop treating it as if it’s the end of the world. People are just so good at overestimating and that’s a problem.

[MercuryRain]

2 minutes ago, smirb said:

Sure, some of Linus’s problems are unacceptable, but please, stop treating it as if it’s the end of the world. People are just so good at overestimating and that’s a problem.

I mean, there are a lot of people here who want conflicting things, if we're being honest.  There are people that are simultaneously annoyed at Linus' emotional and hair-trigger response to everything - which is valid, but then they are also upset that he promised all further crisis communication would be run by someone else first.

 

You can't have it both ways.  You either get genuine, irrational responses from someone who feels attacked, whether validly or not, or you get a response that was run by someone else who can help him rationalize things.  If you want genuine responses that don't sound like canned PR, you're probably going to get someone who reacts poorly in times of crisis.  That's just how things work. 

[smirb]

“Nothing is perfect” - someone

literally everyone:

 

I’m gonna pretend I didn’t see that.

[MercuryRain]

4 minutes ago, smirb said:

“Nothing is perfect” - someone

literally everyone:

 

I’m gonna pretend I didn’t see that.

Yep.

 

Just across the board.

[gargamel314]

Over on floatplane, I'm just amazed at all the people who are p/o'd because they decided not to do the WAN show or upload Floatplane exclusive content. LMG took a poll whether to upload FP exclusives that were already produced, which ended up like 60/40 for having uploads, but b/c it wasn't an overwhelming majority, they are playing it safe and not uploading anything. People are mad because they think because LMG took a poll, that meant they were promised something 1in regards to the outcome of the poll.

 

People need to have a LITTLE respect for the actual people in the company here these days and understand that we the fans are not the ones calling the shots. The amount of people i've seen who think they are just so entitled because YouTube gave them Like and Subscribe buttons! People really get enraged over so little...

[greaves1111]

I thought Steve's video was very well put together and contained clips/screenshots to drive home his points. I guess the only unknown for me is how the Billet Labs thing actually went down.... LTT seems to think the timeline Steve reported is false. No idea, don't care. The Billet Labs debacle was ridiculous and LTT deserves all of the flack they are getting for that one. Linus' pompous attitude from those wan show clips was so cringe.

 

I don't think this is a "vocal minority wins again" situation. They did Billet Labs so dirty and rubbed salt in the wound when they got called out for it lol.

 

 

[NadiaMayer]

6 hours ago, Zerbio said:

As someone wo is usually part of silent majority i highly disagree with this statement. They clearly have some stuff to sort out. I was always put off when linus said that he doesen't want his people to unionise. A union is not something that is supposed to fight the business, it is supposed to give the workers a strong voice so both parties can move into a better futur together. And i am positive a union (doing their job) would have helped with a lot of these issues.

unions are meant for be a third party that safe and trusted when upper management gets muck up. the iusse is both union in the past a asked for outrage things and was been demonised. linus as said many times is worker are free to from a union and would not stop it more that he would feel sad that hes failed his team.


I do think a union need to be put in place and proper agreement to done up. it would be nice have this union many expand for a tech YT or more yt in as there many muti team YT channels around (TKOK, Tested, Isaac Arthur, tom scott, etc).

As some who worked for YTer in the past there always an iceburg of paid and unpaid helpers that make things work

 

[LucySpectre]

It's a public pause, but what's really going to matter is what happens long terms when uploads recommence. 

 

[MercuryRain]

3 minutes ago, LucySpectre said:

It's a public pause, but what's really going to matter is what happens long terms when uploads recommence. 

 

We'll be finding out before then, if what Gary said was at all true.

[FluorescentGreen5]

17 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Ignoring the Madison incident - which came out after the video was made - were the other things really that serious and grave for one to be absolutely dead serious? I mean it's not like they were apologizing for murdering someone. There wasn't any party that was physically hurt. It was mostly their incompetence, and they were just staying on brand and trying to lighten the mood with the lttstore, screwdriver and sponsor segment.

 

I do not think it took anything away from the apology video, especially when all the senior management came in apologized and highlighted steps to rectify all of it.

Well given how mad the community is at them and Linus's initial response, it would've been better to play it safe and keep the jokes to a minimum.

[cornholio509]

3 hours ago, greaves1111 said:

I thought Steve's video was very well put together and contained clips/screenshots to drive home his points. I guess the only unknown for me is how the Billet Labs thing actually went down.... LTT seems to think the timeline Steve reported is false. No idea, don't care. The Billet Labs debacle was ridiculous and LTT deserves all of the flack they are getting for that one. Linus' pompous attitude from those wan show clips was so cringe.

 

I don't think this is a "vocal minority wins again" situation. They did Billet Labs so dirty and rubbed salt in the wound when they got called out for it lol.

No one disagrees with that at this point . Infact all i see at the moment is nitpicking over how wrong linus is . Not to mention people looking for an apology on an unproven allegation .  

 

THat said there is a minority here who really want to watch someone's reputation burn to the ground . They are trying to get staff to speak out and making claims of guilt because of silence . They are not helping the situation at all . 

 

SO getting back to facts this is what we have .

 

• Employee calls out steve and hardware unboxed in a video claiming claiming knowledge of how they do testing . This comments should have never been made as they know nothing of the inner workings of weather channel . 
• Billets labs prototype gets auctioned off . Was never meant to leave the hands of LMG . Otherwise it should have been sent back . A bad communication caused this issue . 
• Steve finds out about the comments made by the LMG employee and got information on the billet labs prototype . Decides to do a factual pieces on it and LMG's inaccuracies in their videos . Content was factual in all aspects .
• Linus makes an emotional rant in the LTT forum . In a Braindead emotional rant call out Steve for his journalistic practices . For the most part Linus tells the truth but never once took ownership of the mistakes made by his company while he was at the helm . 
• Community starts to fire back at LMG and linus more aggressively . 
• GN does another article about linus and his post . This time with anger Steve doesnt hold back .Though steves  billet lab prototype comment on been SOLD while technically accurate , it wasnt a 100% true statement . 
• Linus goes quiet as the community demands and apology .
• Video apology goes up on floatplane first then youtube a short while later . 
• In the apology they Stated exactly what they are doing and going to do . 
• YouTube community is pissed that LMG's paying customers see it first . Some of the community can't accept it . It was scripted , monetized and so on . 
• LMG respond to clarify the video was not monetized and they remove the usual LTT store links . Instead linked to the forum for the community to discuss . They also gave their reasons for the jokes .
• Maddison's allegations come to light and another tirade begins within the community ,
• LINUS and TERREN both made very public statements about the alleged abuse . They clarified they will be an independent investigation as well . Not only that they will publish their findings . 
• So far what linus , Yvonne and Terren said they were going to do seems to be happening . 

I think i have the facts covered there for the most part . I know LMG would wants to do something for the FloatPlane crowd who directly pay for their content . However that would be an unrecoverable PR disaster .  So to floatplane guys out there please be patient . They can't give you something and ignore the majority of the community . As for the rest of the community its time to put down pitchforks and stop making ridiculous demands after getting the apology . THe only things linus and LMG owes us now are as follows . THey stick to their word and make changes internally for the better .  Get back to make factual entertaining videos and finally publish what they stated they are going to publish . 

 

Now can we get on with making suggestions on how LMG can be more transparent in the future and change for the better . I am tired of  reading almost 60 pages of toxic infighting with no real suggestions to help LMG improve to our benefit  .  SO i am going to start by reposting some of what i already posted and add to it since i have had time to think about things objectively . 

 

Suggestions for LMG going forward . 

 

FOR THE STAFF

• Every employee should have access to a code of conduct set by the company from now on . It should be plainly written so even an idiot can understand . 
• Employees should not by any means make comments about other channels  outside of LMG . Especially when they dont know the inner workings of those companies .
• Everytime a new hire comes in they should be immediately be brought in and given all relevant information needed . This should include a pamphlet with who to contact in the case of workplace abuse . Phone numbers , emails etc. 
• With the coming out of emily  , the abuse claims and the sheer pressure of workloads your staff have . Maybe it might be time to have someone for mental health available for staff . Be they an outside source or employed as a councillor . 
• Regular meetings between staff and managers in every department to gauge if workloads are magable .    
• This one is for Linus . You need to treat your company and employees as an investment . You can still have friends and have a fun work environment . You need to act more like the owner of the company .  
• All at LMG need to look at criticism objectively . While its O.K to get emotional , it is not O.K to shrug off your responsibility as a member of LMG  crew . That should go without saying from the lowest ranks to the top brass .
• Take a page out of toyota book for the production line . Toyota get staff input on how to stream line things . Its tested out and  suggestions that works from a staff member should be given a bonus . Use the talent you have and incentivise them to help improve the company and your processes .   

FOR THE COMMUNITY 

 

• Get the labs website started . Even if its only one page with testing methodology present so the tech community at large can scrutinize it , and make suggestions to better the standards of testing . 
• Get the hardware benchmarking suite into the public domain so it can be scrutinised . Again can be done via git hub . However the general public need to be able to find it easily . So posting a link via the LTT youtube page for now will do . WHen the labs site is up have a dedicated page to it which is also easy to find  
• I think a video needs to be done on the changes you are currently making to the company to improve things . 
• Yearly updates on the LMG as a whole and changes you would like to make going forward . What you still need to work on and what has worked and not worked .   
• When the labs changes testing procedures you need to notify the community . Adding information from other tests , changing games and other software and the reasoning behind it . This also should include any changes to the coolers used on test benches .  
• Get involved with other creators in your space and discuss testing with them . Get an idea on how you all do it and make it better across the board . No point in trying to be the best in this space if you cant uplift your fellow creators . 
• THis one is for use the community . While 15.5 million are subscribed here . Stop using LTT as your only source of information . You need to cross-reference their results with others so mistakes made by one doesn't lead you down the wrong path with a purchase .  Mistakes will be made at some point . Depending on one source will always lead to trouble . 
• Be more open about problems within LMG . Although the attacks here have been brutal . The community is more forgiving if you show your woulds rather than trying to hide them . 

Suys feel fee to add or change anything i suggested here . This is what the conversation should be about . Whats happened chant be changed . However we can make suggestions that might make things better in the future

 

[TechyRaccoon]

What do you now? Easy? Keep on going!

[BigFatTeddy]

17 hours ago, iLikeBananas said:

Steve said that he didn't contact Linus first because he suspected that he would try to weasel his way out of this, and that is in my opinion a valid reason.

"To assume makes an ass out of u and me." That was the second rule I learned at the beginning of my professional career. It would not have hurt his "professional approach" if he had contacted him, maybe even on stream. And it would have killed the drama before it even began. If he would have not "assumed anything" but just would have created facts, no discussion. If there would have been a timeline of events, evidence of communication, even a recording of a call, whatever, no discussion.

 

So, right now, all we have is another dude telling us "Trust me bro!" who is accusing another dude of not living to "Trust me bro!" Idiotic.

 

He is not obligated to do so; that is perfectly correct. And he can call out whoever he wants on his channel; that is also perfectly correct. He chose violence, and he has his reasons to do so. But just telling him people that this is fine because he didn't want to contact LTT because he didn't have to. That is not reasoning. That's just a choice. Up to him.

 

But definitely, he did expect this fallout. The question is: Did he embrace the shitstorm? And no one on this forum can answer that. Not even Steve.

 

So, he had the choice of how this would play out and he chose. Don't try to sugarcoat this.

[Budget DIY]

7 hours ago, cornholio509 said:

No one disagrees with that at this point . Infact all i see at the moment is nitpicking over how wrong linus is . Not to mention people looking for an apology on an unproven allegation .  

 

THat said there is a minority here who really want to watch someone's reputation burn to the ground . They are trying to get staff to speak out and making claims of guilt because of silence . They are not helping the situation at all . 

 

SO getting back to facts this is what we have .

 

• Employee calls out steve and hardware unboxed in a video claiming claiming knowledge of how they do testing . This comments should have never been made as they know nothing of the inner workings of weather channel . 
• Billets labs prototype gets auctioned off . Was never meant to leave the hands of LMG . Otherwise it should have been sent back . A bad communication caused this issue . 
• Steve finds out about the comments made by the LMG employee and got information on the billet labs prototype . Decides to do a factual pieces on it and LMG's inaccuracies in their videos . Content was factual in all aspects .
• Linus makes an emotional rant in the LTT forum . In a Braindead emotional rant call out Steve for his journalistic practices . For the most part Linus tells the truth but never once took ownership of the mistakes made by his company while he was at the helm . 
• Community starts to fire back at LMG and linus more aggressively . 
• GN does another article about linus and his post . This time with anger Steve doesnt hold back .Though steves  billet lab prototype comment on been SOLD while technically accurate , it wasnt a 100% true statement . 
• Linus goes quiet as the community demands and apology .
• Video apology goes up on floatplane first then youtube a short while later . 
• In the apology they Stated exactly what they are doing and going to do . 
• YouTube community is pissed that LMG's paying customers see it first . Some of the community can't accept it . It was scripted , monetized and so on . 
• LMG respond to clarify the video was not monetized and they remove the usual LTT store links . Instead linked to the forum for the community to discuss . They also gave their reasons for the jokes .
• Maddison's allegations come to light and another tirade begins within the community ,
• LINUS and TERREN both made very public statements about the alleged abuse . They clarified they will be an independent investigation as well . Not only that they will publish their findings . 
• So far what linus , Yvonne and Terren said they were going to do seems to be happening . 

I think i have the facts covered there for the most part . I know LMG would wants to do something for the FloatPlane crowd who directly pay for their content . However that would be an unrecoverable PR disaster .  So to floatplane guys out there please be patient . They can't give you something and ignore the majority of the community . As for the rest of the community its time to put down pitchforks and stop making ridiculous demands after getting the apology . THe only things linus and LMG owes us now are as follows . THey stick to their word and make changes internally for the better .  Get back to make factual entertaining videos and finally publish what they stated they are going to publish . 

 

Now can we get on with making suggestions on how LMG can be more transparent in the future and change for the better . I am tired of  reading almost 60 pages of toxic infighting with no real suggestions to help LMG improve to our benefit  .  SO i am going to start by reposting some of what i already posted and add to it since i have had time to think about things objectively . 

 

Suggestions for LMG going forward . 

 

FOR THE STAFF

• Every employee should have access to a code of conduct set by the company from now on . It should be plainly written so even an idiot can understand . 
• Employees should not by any means make comments about other channels  outside of LMG . Especially when they dont know the inner workings of those companies .
• Everytime a new hire comes in they should be immediately be brought in and given all relevant information needed . This should include a pamphlet with who to contact in the case of workplace abuse . Phone numbers , emails etc. 
• With the coming out of emily  , the abuse claims and the sheer pressure of workloads your staff have . Maybe it might be time to have someone for mental health available for staff . Be they an outside source or employed as a councillor . 
• Regular meetings between staff and managers in every department to gauge if workloads are magable .    
• This one is for Linus . You need to treat your company and employees as an investment . You can still have friends and have a fun work environment . You need to act more like the owner of the company .  
• All at LMG need to look at criticism objectively . While its O.K to get emotional , it is not O.K to shrug off your responsibility as a member of LMG  crew . That should go without saying from the lowest ranks to the top brass .
• Take a page out of toyota book for the production line . Toyota get staff input on how to stream line things . Its tested out and  suggestions that works from a staff member should be given a bonus . Use the talent you have and incentivise them to help improve the company and your processes .   

FOR THE COMMUNITY 

 

• Get the labs website started . Even if its only one page with testing methodology present so the tech community at large can scrutinize it , and make suggestions to better the standards of testing . 
• Get the hardware benchmarking suite into the public domain so it can be scrutinised . Again can be done via git hub . However the general public need to be able to find it easily . So posting a link via the LTT youtube page for now will do . WHen the labs site is up have a dedicated page to it which is also easy to find  
• I think a video needs to be done on the changes you are currently making to the company to improve things . 
• Yearly updates on the LMG as a whole and changes you would like to make going forward . What you still need to work on and what has worked and not worked .   
• When the labs changes testing procedures you need to notify the community . Adding information from other tests , changing games and other software and the reasoning behind it . This also should include any changes to the coolers used on test benches .  
• Get involved with other creators in your space and discuss testing with them . Get an idea on how you all do it and make it better across the board . No point in trying to be the best in this space if you cant uplift your fellow creators . 
• THis one is for use the community . While 15.5 million are subscribed here . Stop using LTT as your only source of information . You need to cross-reference their results with others so mistakes made by one doesn't lead you down the wrong path with a purchase .  Mistakes will be made at some point . Depending on one source will always lead to trouble . 
• Be more open about problems within LMG . Although the attacks here have been brutal . The community is more forgiving if you show your woulds rather than trying to hide them . 

Suys feel fee to add or change anything i suggested here . This is what the conversation should be about . Whats happened chant be changed . However we can make suggestions that might make things better in the future

 

After the "apology vid", I kinda zoned out for a few days, and was busy DIY-ing, and I was missing some new points. So thank you for this post! Interested in the abuse stuffs, which are new-to-me. (was this the reason Linus had his marbles removed years ago?)

Final note: I'm an OG Pitchfork guy. From +/- when they moved out of the house. So I won't put it in storage. But when I try to be objective: LOADS of work to be done at LMG, and I suppose LMG "should" have enough credit left, to get this extra time to figure stuffs out.

EDIT: few hours later. Checked up on the Madison disaster. LMG has a well-negative credit rating.

[Buggerlugz]

On 8/16/2023 at 10:45 AM, joaopt said:

grab the popcorns folks, were we go, train wreck is on the move, no brakes

more like "snowpiercer" going round the world in circles, its passengers waiting to see who's next.

[Buggerlugz]

On 8/19/2023 at 7:05 PM, BigFatTeddy said:

"To assume makes an ass out of u and me." That was the second rule I learned at the beginning of my professional career. It would not have hurt his "professional approach"

This isn't a GN vs LMG deathmatch/showdown by any stretch of the imagination. GN did the right thing here.

[Guest]

23 hours ago, WeiSheiLindon said:

Yes but that doesn't make LMG a bad company. There will be people in life that offend you. You should get over that instead of making it someone else's problem. Also, saying that's a fact does nothing to help your case, because if your argument is logical, it won't need to be proven, and if it does need to be proven with some form of data, that's definitely not in the form of saying "That's a fact."

No. Tone deaf jokes in a company "apology" shows that something is not well done as a company. Problems should be first resolved and not just "get over" them. You must stand so the issues that bother you are resolved. Specially if they are this serious. I was telling you what the reality is about moral standards beacuse you were blatantly wrong. That's a fact you need to learn before having an opinion about it.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, ReHWolution said:

LMAO did you just compare a case of misunderstanding and bad internal communication in a company with political corruption, drug dealing and criminal gangs? LMAAAAO

Yep. That's is. I was trying to make it clear by exagerating to the limit. I could just explain to you that in company bad practices is the same without going so far but given you can differentiate and extreme case example from doing two separate thing the same... I did the best I could. You are not getting it but I tried.