Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[VisibleXela]

2 minutes ago, Ottoman420 said:

Pretty sure its Colton or Dennis- Fuck you Colton x

Nah, I'm pretty sure both Colton and Dennis are over the age of 14 so it couldn't be them. Linus's son maybe?

[turdjones650]

Linus, 

First of all this is a message to Linus. Not LMG. Not Luke. Not Adam. Not Ed. Not anyone else. Linus, I, like a good amount of people in the community grew up watching you from the start. I remember you all moving into the Langely house. I remember "Whole Room water cooling" and "Scrapyard Wars" as they were being released. Yeah I might not be a whale or even a fish in the sea compared to some but I'm the average guy who doesn't miss a LTT upload and listens to WAN faithfully every Friday night while I drive up the road for work. You are one my idols. I still remember building my first pc with you on my laptop right next to me in my mom's basement. Then building my second in my own living room with you on the TV infront of me. You've sincerely touched my life and while I understand it may not just be you Luke and Ed in some garage somewhere you can't deny that YOU are the reason me and many others have fallen in love with the channel. I'm not here to thrash you (I'm sure your getting enough from all the arm chair warriors) I just wanted to speak on something you said in your post. That there will not be a WAN segment (or seemingly a dedicated video) on the GN topic. I like many others would like to hear your take on the subject. Your post makes it seem like GN didn't give you the option to speak your side of things and that's not how journalism is supposed to work. I'm not asking for an apology. I'm not asking that you make it right. I'm not asking anything. I'm saying that we (your loyal viewers like me who stand with you through thick and thin) DESERVE to hear your side, no matter how ugly or hurtful it might be to the company. You talk about transparency and transparency is transparency when it's good for LMG and when it's bad for LMG. Again I don't want to hassle you just please for those of us who are on the fence and not jumping to any conclusions just yet, we deserve to look you in the eyes and hear your side.....

[DanKepke]

I'm not a hardcore follower of LTT, but i've been someone lurking around as a sub and viewer of many videos since the old noctua unboxing outdoors on some free parking spots. I watch the WAN show every week, rarely live but as podcast or yt vid on the side it's been my favourite and constant habit for years now. I love linus and luke and i do believe in "trust me bro".

 

But, for a few years now, i've stopped watching the wast majority of LTT videos. Many reasons have already been stated here, but i still want to add my 2cents because banana. I feel like LMG is in a loop of "video quantity to survive" and "staff to make quantity happen". While LMG now has 100+ people employed, i don't feel like the videos represent all man power invested.

 

Please don't ask for examples, but many videos had great ideas and would have been cool af, but let me down by what i can only describe as a feeling of low effort and impatience. The recent CNC desk PC for whatever youtuber was SICK AS FUCK and was executed superb. I don't need every video to be a 100K$ project, but you have to admit, a properly planed and executed project like that really is amazing to watch, especially if the project lead add good flavour explanation and details.

 

I like to point at the wooden desk PC video. (watch?v=iHYe1eHYrDw) The idea is cool, but... DIY perks is one guy and did it better, without rushing to make it to the wan show. I even found the filming done better. 

 

LMG has grown, but need to chill out, refocus and maybe take a cheap prosumer camera and do some pasionate projects with a american portion sized chunk of time for them.

------------------------------------

 

Regarding the correctness of data, i see GNs point. You got the staff, give them time. If you don't have it, take the L and create the time needed. Labs not 100% reliable? tripple check result with multiple people. I work in the beverage industry and everyone does a quality check on their part of the job and before we hit the "produce 100'000 bottles" button, we all come together to one designated area to double check each others work so we can deliver a flawless product.

 

Most of the crap i just wrote might be.. crap. Just finished my shift and listend to the GN video on my drive back home and wanted to add my fart to the musty room. I just want good "og TopGear of Tech" videos, where everyone is satisfied with their work, instead of hitting quotas.

 

 

[atxcyclist]

6 minutes ago, dustypaws said:

You view criticism as negative... I don't want to live in your world...

Criticism is fine. You’re acting like you’re not just kicking up dirt and making drama, but clearly you are. You were not active in this community until there’s drama, you’ve said it yourself.

 

I wouldn’t live in your world, I don’t. I don’t go around popping my head into a community to just insult it and the people in it.

[E-Waster]

11 minutes ago, Legitsu said:

Steve/Gamersnexus aren't jorurnalists

they sure as hell aren't acting like ones when they post mud slinging videos 

data? where was the data here: this is a mud piece

 

I don't buy this "we are doing this for your own good non-sense" 

thats virtu signaling bullshit being used as justification for a mud slinging campain because he was called out 

 

 

Gotta love a Linus defender with the PCMR profile pic.

[r-k-soma-ya-ji]

LTT is no longer a YouTuber, they are a media group. Maybe not as big as FOX but they are no longer a small startup. They should be judged at the same level they should judge big companies whose products they choose to judge.

Selling a prototype without permission, notwithstanding a miscommunication is malice, no matter how you cut it. Ethics dictate getting thing in writing that they are allowed to sell it or auction it or even give it to someone else. I would like them to try do it to Intel, AMD, Nvidia, ASUS or their newest buddy Noctua. Just because Billet Labs is a startup they seems to be getting away with murder by paying them off.

[MrSuperb]

Just now, VisibleXela said:

Which incident? Billet Labs? The errors in the 4090 review? The 4060 review? The CPU cooler test? Linus' relationship with Noctua? His investment in Framework? Which one is the "one incident," just so I have my facts straight?

 

These are all separate issues, to be sure, and with wildly different consequences and reasons for concern. Some of these I think are straight up blown out of proportion. But saying "you're just pointing out one issue," to me, is the same as saying "I didn't want to watch the Gamers Nexus video so I didn't."

The lab tour remark in the beginning of the GN video. No way GN would have made this video otherwise.

 

• Billet Labs was a mistake, but neither you, GN or I know what really happened here. There have been similar cases before.
• Reviews contain errors, so what? GN complains, that LTT fixes them with tools he doesn’t have access to.
• I watch LTT since the NCIX days, everyone knows he likes Noctua, there have been co branded products for years. They are not exactly hiding that.
• Same for his Investment in Framework. That has been shared a million times.

[dustypaws]

Just now, atxcyclist said:

Criticism is fine. You’re acting like you’re not just here to kick up dirt and make drama, but clearly you are. You were not active in this community until there’s drama, you’ve said it yourself.

 

I wouldn’t live in your world, I don’t. I don’t go around making discussion board accounts just to flame people, that’s actually pathetic.

I've stated my intentions. If you think you know MY intentions better then I do... that's just weird.

[MotherboardsInThePark]

28 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

You’re arguing against time-tracking for employees? Especially in situations where employees deal in contracts with clients/companies, there has to be a way to chart time spent on each client/company. 
 

 

I know, there HAS to be a way. God forbid you don't track that.

[VisibleXela]

1 minute ago, DanKepke said:

LMG has grown, but need to chill out, refocus and maybe take a cheap prosumer camera and do some pasionate projects with a american portion sized chunk of time for them.

I wonder if this is why I see the occasional request for Scrapyard Wars 9 - I think that was the last time I thought LTT felt (for lack of a better word) "scrappy." I don't think Scrapyard Wars 9 is happening or should happen, but a video like that would probably go a long way to buying some favor back.

[NuDimon]

4 minutes ago, Jignesh Chauhan said:

Fair point on over time, but if time sheets are used for only focus on churning work and book time of time sheets is not productive. Need to encourage quality even if it takes more time to do a task. Even if the task takes more than SLA. It is always a balance. 

Tbh they should probably have a backlog of more evergreen content to fill up upload slots to allow for delayed videos, though that will only add to the worklod in the short term, so idk how viable it is to start this process right now.

[atxcyclist]

6 minutes ago, dustypaws said:

I've stated my intentions. If you think you know MY intentions better then I do... that's just weird.

8 of your 9 posts are in this drama-fueled thread, your actions speak much more clearly than whatever you’re typing. Also, you said you are not active in this community, and clearly you are not until there’s drama to fuel and then you go in.

 

 

[Caeradwyn]

10 minutes ago, Legitsu said:

says who ? who are you to be an authority on buisness. money and community reliaionships ?

 

you got PhD id love to see it

now whos on a high horse seesh 

its the pot calling the kettle black up in here smh 

Exactly what are you addressing?
My comment about Gamers Nexus? My comment on it not being possible to both maximize profits AND integrity? You quoted my whole post, and I touch on several different subjects.

[RevengeofProfKatz]

 Linus. You and your team have always been decent "entertainers", and can easily be looked at as the largest entertainer in the tech coverage world. Kinda like how Conan O'brien or Jay Leno could cover some news, but not be journalist. Ultimately they were on their show to entertain. Thats you basically. LTT is the Conan O'brien of the tech world. It's not a bad place to be. Your company is successful, and you are able to focus on being creative, doing projects you are passionate about. The Wan show is a fun listen when treated as heavily opinionated gossip.

But to be fair, your reviews, including the ones you try to pass off as not being reviews, are seriously about as reliable as a Verge PC builders guide. You are not on the level of Gamers Nexus or Hardware Unboxed, and have not been for some time (and I say this while not even liking HU as a channel). I would not even put you on the level of Jayz2Cents, though at this point Jay is slowly but heavily leaning towards being a entertainer type like LTT when he isn't busy plugging Pay2Win games. And you have definitely always shown yourself at times to be arrogant and a bit of a asshole, and I seriously think you lack that ability to reflect, read the room, actually legitimately own ones mistakes, not just talk about how you will fix them and never do, and stay out of your own way. And the people under your team emulate you on this, because, for some reason they admire and look up to you probably a bit more than they should.

 

Quote

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece.

 

That is not the issue at all. The fact is, he isn't required to to report to you, or any other company when he covers a news story. You are treating it like you feel you were the top dog in a pact of good ole boys. You and your team often fucked around. Now you found out.
 

Quote

(like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype)

Auctioning is a form of selling. It's called public selling. Do you not know how words work Linus? Do you seriously need the definition of auction copy/pasted for you?

"a public sale in which goods or property are sold to the highest bidder."

Take note of the words "sale" and "sold" in the definition Linus. It's essential. The fact of the matter is, you potentially fucked over Billet Labs on a whim. If I was them, I would sue you. What ever they do going forward is up to them, but that would have been where I took it. And by your own words, you still have not even made right on it yet. You keep outing yourself as a mild scumbag.
 

Quote

I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us.

Evidently it has not been that important. It only took one cover story to blow multiple holes into your ship, so yeah, you still have fuck tons of work to do.
 

Quote

Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you.

 

But as Steve pointed out, you don't really hold yourselves accountable through numerous screw ups. And by your own words, you have not made things right with Billet yet, or anyone else you have harmed. You do the damage, and let it stew, and it takes everyone else pointing your shit out and prodding you into taking minimal steps to make things right.
 

Quote

and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation.

 

But they do merit it. And the fact of the matter is, you do your testing, then constantly post flawed test results in your "reviews" covering a products performance. Basically, your "conclusions" are just as sloppy as posting the wrong cache size of a cpu.

 

Quote

Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).

Who you trying to convince here, you, or me? You lost perspective when you covered the Billet product. In the world of coolers, people do actually spend money on stuff all the time that they don't actually need. There are plenty of water cooled, decked in RGB, pc's out there that could get by perfectly fine with normal air cooling and a lack of RGB slathered on them. And it isn't like you just harmed the company with a bad preview. YOU SOLD THEIR FUCKING PROTOTYPE AND STILL HAVE NOT MADE GOOD ON THAT.  And lets be real here, making good on that, would actually have been tracking the buyer down and getting it back to begin with, not being ok with selling someones trade secrets away for a future product, knowing full well this could kill a upstart company, thus DISABLING them from doing things like, being able to afford to eat. You sir, are a dumb ass.

 

Quote

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it.

There was more due diligence put into Steve's coverage of your issues than you ever put in anything you have done the past few years. You just didn't appreciate that someone that is actually credible and trusted called you out on you and your teams bullshit. Had some low viewership channel done the same kinda story, you damn well know you would have tried to bury them somehow if you thought you could. But you know you cant do that to GN or HU.
 

Quote

I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions

LOL no you don't. If you did, we would not be where we are at right now, would we?
 

Quote

but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community

The same peers and community you keep trying to throw under the bus?
 

Quote

The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient. 

So what you're saying here is, you're one of those brutally honest types who can dish it, but cant take it when it's directed back at you by one of your "peers". Again, just another example of you outing yourself as an asshole who cant get out of his own way.
 

Quote

Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

We already know what happened. Steve did some excellent coverage of it. We don't need a narcissist self-serving spin on it. It would be like Jim Davis giving himself reviews on his Garfield comics. We all know Jim thinks highly of himself and his old hat recycled cat project. That doesn't make him a great guy, or a fucking genius to anyone else but himself. The reason today sucks, is because you and your team made it suck. If this is your best, you got a lot of work, reflection, and possibly therapy ahead of you still. Also, you might want to invest in adding a team member that can guide LTT on the ways of morality. You and your team clearly need it now more than ever.

 

[Jignesh Chauhan]

3 minutes ago, NuDimon said:

Tbh they should probably have a backlog of more evergreen content to fill up upload slots to allow for delayed videos, though that will only add to the worklod in the short term, so idk how viable it is to start this process right now.

Not sure , how much can be changed by LMG. I know once you go time sheets route very difficult to go away. It is rabbit hole to find more and more time saving. Quality, creativity attention to detail comes second.  

[VisibleXela]

1 minute ago, MrSuperb said:

The lab tour remark in the beginning of the GN video. No way GN would have made this video otherwise.

 

• Billet Labs was a mistake, but neither you, GN or I know what really happened here. There have been similar cases before.
• Reviews contain errors, so what? GN complains, that LTT fixes them with tools he doesn’t have access to.
• I watch LTT since the NCIX days, everyone knows he likes Noctua, there have been co branded products for years. They are not exactly hiding that.
• Same for his Investment in Framework. That has been shared a million times.

See, I don't agree at all. You can pretend you can handwave all of these things away, but they're not small issues.

• Billet Labs is the thing, I feel, is the most egregious. No,  I don't know what happened, but to be honest I don't really care - whatever happened they didn't treat someone else's property with respect and when they got called out for it they went "well we're paying them!" Not a great look, even if they handled everything as well as possible behind closed doors. They were lended something in good faith, sold it, then paid the company after getting yelled at for it. Even if they were already paying before the backlash and even if the whole thing was a series of errors those are errors LMG should not have made when it came at the cost of another company's property.
• Again personally speaking, I don't have a problem with errors in the reviews, I do have a problem with the seeming residence from LMG to go back and fix those errors in the videos. If they went back and shot corrections, or even just a little insert "hey we goofed this, here's the real data" or something I would be thrilled.
• The Noctua thing - not a "problem" in and of itself, but it definitely points to some impropriety - according to their cooler test, even the Noctua is thermal throttling. So why are LMG using it for testing? I'm not sure this is a capital P "Problem" but it definitely smells fishy.
• Some might argue that when the founder owns a stake in a competing laptop company they shouldn't be reviewing laptops at all as LMG, as a whole, has a conflict of interest. I don't necessarily agree, but I understand the viewpoint and those people aren't wrong.

This is why I think it's silly to handwave this as "one issue," no, it's not. I'm not so convinced it's a "pattern of behavior" but it's a lot of shit LMG should learn from. These are the things people are upset for.

[bramturismo]

19 hours ago, hassam222 said:

The part where it is alleged LTT auctioned off a prototype water block they promised to return is troubling. That requires an official response.

Even worse is LTT saying the product does not function, and should not be bought or invested in, while it is LTT that is using the product in question incorrectly, and is completely disregarding the operation manual for it. When confronted with it, LTT then replies on their part saying "It doesn't matter, the product does not work."

 

This lazy and disrespectful manner this issue is being treated with, angers me to be entirely honest. Here we have two people launching a new company, and investing their money and time into it, only for LTT to make a completely false and incorrect review about their product, potentially irreversely damaging the reputation of that company.

 

Disgusting.

[IrishDiem]

6 minutes ago, MrSuperb said:

The lab tour remark in the beginning of the GN video. No way GN would have made this video otherwise.

 

• Billet Labs was a mistake, but neither you, GN or I know what really happened here. There have been similar cases before.
• Reviews contain errors, so what? GN complains, that LTT fixes them with tools he doesn’t have access to.
• I watch LTT since the NCIX days, everyone knows he likes Noctua, there have been co branded products for years. They are not exactly hiding that.
• Same for his Investment in Framework. That has been shared a million times.

Totally - the tour labs remark is the reason for this. Whatever Steve and GN were bottling up exploded into this video. Refined and well aged jealousy for the most part I think. 

 

Agree on Billey Labs - not about what really happened just that the entire video was poop. 
The Noctua and Framework things are also pure jealousy. We all know all about them as sponsors and investments. These things are not hidden. 

[thebakerman]

11 minutes ago, B_aker said:

Companies need to grow to be successful. Frequently (and necessarily) this comes at the cost of moral (not fiscal) integrity. I haven't watched LTT for performance data in many years as almost every other creator in the space does that content better and I don't feel it was necessary of Steve to even make this piece as its fairly evident their hardware reviews are more form than function. I mean who in their right mind would wait for an LTT video to finalize their purchasing decisions?

 

I would agree 100% and have no issues with this approach whatsoever if they rebranded as an entertainment outlet who (as someone put it earlier) is the Top Gear of tech YouTube. I may stop watching them, but if they find an audience, so be it.

 

The problem is, they're investing millions of dollars into steering LMG into a scientific, data-driven outlet with a website that will test hundreds of products a day and people will presumably pay for to be able to reliably compare every single tech product in the future. Their stated goal is to hold manufacturers to their marketing claims. And I believe them, not because I trust LMG, but because otherwise the whole idea of blowing millions of dollars on niche scentific equipment with zero entertainment value beyond a video or two makes zero sense.

 

In other words, if they want to devolve into an entertainment content factory, why wouldn't they spend that money doing something other than setting up a testing facility. To me, this looks like incompetence and not malice, which is why got invested enough to actually make an account after years of watching.

[MotherboardsInThePark]

8 minutes ago, VisibleXela said:

I wonder if this is why I see the occasional request for Scrapyard Wars 9 - I think that was the last time I thought LTT felt (for lack of a better word) "scrappy." I don't think Scrapyard Wars 9 is happening or should happen, but a video like that would probably go a long way to buying some favor back.

We still need to decide if we're actually going to watch SW 9. It depends on how this whole thing plays out, but it's not looking good at the moment.

[Karon]

1 hour ago, ericmadeyourday said:

Nope. BS. Did really anyone need to be informed about this? The LTT subreddit is filled with the same stuff over the last months. The public did already know.

Try to think it that way: Do you think Gamers Nexus would have made this video, if the statement Tim made never happened? I don't think so. And that's why I feel like it's just a stupid revenge thing. My guess is he mainly wanted to fuck up Linus.

How many people watch ltt Videos and how many visit this forum? 

 

You're part of the .1% and think you're part of the 99.9%.

[Alotafajitas]

How about them cubbies, eh?

[japers]

6 minutes ago, RevengeofProfKatz said:

 

That is not the issue at all. The fact is, he isn't required to to report to you, or any other company when he covers a news story. 
 

Its a well-established, fundamental pillar of journalism to reach out to a party you're making accusations of or to an offending party when covering a news story. Even the most local of local newspaper journalists do this. Let alone an outlet with a following with size of GN. GN made a choice to do this. Theyre not in the clear here either.

 

Quote

Auctioning is a form of selling. It's called public selling. Do you not know how words work Linus? Do you seriously need the definition of auction copy/pasted for you?

Him drawing the distinction is very clear to any rational-thinking adult that its about making it clear it wasn't sold for the benefit of LMG's bottom line, and was instead auctioned for charity. Theres a very very clear ethical canyon between the two and thats whats being highlighted here. Its important that people don't think they sold it and pocketed the cash. Its also important that people don't jump to the sheer volume of conclusions that have been jumped to regarding this entire situation.

[ToboRobot]

1 minute ago, japers said:

Its literally a fundamental pillar of journalism to reach out to a party youre making accusations of or an offending party when covering a news story. Even the most local of local newspaper journalists do this. Let alone an outlet with a following with size of GN.

 

If you statement is "literally a fundamental pillar" of a profession, surely you can provide a link that reinforces your opinion.

 

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

54 minutes ago, JiRoDev said:

Naturally games ported to Mac are no different than windows games, this is not the same as windows vs consoles where the output is adjusted, Mac ports are essentially a Metal implementation with no visual changes, making the fairest comparison the one with Metal on Mac and DX12 on windows. Under no circumstances using a deprecated/not supported API on Mac to compare with windows best API is fair. Even if the output is adjusted on Mac, it's not fair to use OpenGL and Vulkan.

You should use OpenGL or Vulkan on both if you just wish to compare performance, any other test generates meaningless numbers. It'd be like that small area in time where you had PS2 and PS3 variants of the same game being released and claiming the PS2 outperformed the PS3 because it scored higher in some metric, while the PS2 graphics looked like a turd in comparison to the PS3. And 50% of the performance might get you 90% of the way there in terms of graphics, especially if you consider the fact that some details and post-processing steps really contribute a lot to the computational complexity.