Apple to Allow Outside App Stores in Overhaul Spurred by EU Laws {DMA, DSA}

[Kisai]

4 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Look at Android and the Galaxy store with Samsung, I can still find all the Microsoft Apps.  A developer wouldn't simply pull their App from a store unless they had a reason to.

 

Nope, not how that works.

 

Microsoft has the developers to make all these special-versions of the software to work within those stores. Your indie developer who hates the fact that there are 30 different android vendors isn't going to make 30 versions of their software to deal with the rubbish-tier GPU SoC's. They are going to make one version that works on the Google store and then if that can run effectively unchanged on the Samsung store, so be it. Will it work 

 

The difference between a "Steam" and an "Epic" version of the same game on the PC is that the EXE, the main binary itself is different. Some games deal with this by having sub-launchers that bring up something like the screen resolution selection (eg, Unity) first and then run the same exe. But if you want the steam achievements, trading cards and stuff on one platform, or Xbox trophies from the Microsoft store, you need to literately change your game three separate times, once for each store to incorporate this fluff feature. 

 

At least within the Apple ecosystem, the actual phones and iPads are not substantially different in feature-sets, even with the smaller models. You can expect that all models released in a certain year have a similar level of performance that you can safely go "yep, that works on iPhone 14, it'll also work on iPad Pro, unchanged, or I can change the UI to fit the iPad"

 

Android is always like, if it's not equal to the current model iPhone, why even bother putting it on Google Play. Like I kid you not, trying to get access to some "Android-only" games via emulator, is a massive pain in the ass, not because the PC can't emulate a "good" Android phone, but because the developers of the software whitelist what devices the software will work on, and that excludes emulated devices. But I'll also point out that the experience of playing a game on an Android Emulator is usually on the terrible-side.

 

A developer may not pull their existing app from the app stores in favor of another store, but if they do that, users will simply remove the app from the device, and not bother with it, believing it to be broken.

[wanderingfool2]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Microsoft has the developers to make all these special-versions of the software to work within those stores. Your indie developer who hates the fact that there are 30 different android vendors isn't going to make 30 versions of their software to deal with the rubbish-tier GPU SoC's. They are going to make one version that works on the Google store and then if that can run effectively unchanged on the Samsung store, so be it. Will it work 

Ignoring the part where I said the vast majority will stay on essentially Apple store unless there is a reason to.

 

Unless you are utilizing IAP's with the store, there really isn't much you would have to change either.  There might be some things different like how you have to sign the APK, but the different stores aren't really that much different.

 

The general point I was making though is that one can't claim that you will have developers moving away from Apple because realistically that isn't what has even happened for Android, which does have multiple stores. 

[maskmcgee]

Well that will be the final reason I won't use Apple gone, now I can still use old versions of Spotify and Youtube Vanced. 

[mr moose]

9 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 

The general point I was making though is that one can't claim that you will have developers moving away from Apple because realistically that isn't what has even happened for Android, which does have multiple stores. 

The problem with many of the arguments like that is that they are largely "what if's" that aren't seen anywhere else in the industry.

 

[Brooksie359]

@darknessbladeyeah I find it hard to believe this will change much for app developers as if they want access to the majority of Apple customers they will still need to go through the apple store. I mean basically only power users are going to be the ones using the alternative app stores especially when alot of alternative app stores aren't better than the apple one. 

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

@darknessbladeyeah I find it hard to believe this will change much for app developers as if they want access to the majority of Apple customers they will still need to go through the apple store. I mean basically only power users are going to be the ones using the alternative app stores especially when alot of alternative app stores aren't better than the apple one. 

I don't disagree with you, I think nearly  all apps will still be available through the app store regardless, but I do want to know how you know alternative app stores aren't better than the apple one when there are currently no alternative app stores to make such a comparison.

[Brooksie359]

13 hours ago, mr moose said:

I don't disagree with you, I think nearly  all apps will still be available through the app store regardless, but I do want to know how you know alternative app stores aren't better than the apple one when there are currently no alternative app stores to make such a comparison.

Well do you see any stores on android that are vastly superior to apples app store? I mean it took alot of time for people to switch off of Microsoft internet explorer even though it sucked and the alternatives were much better. So long as apples app store is good I do not see why the average user would switch to a third party store unless there was some crazy good app that was exclusive to another store. 

[darknessblade]

6 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Well do you see any stores on android that are vastly superior to apples app store? I mean it took alot of time for people to switch off of Microsoft internet explorer even though it sucked and the alternatives were much better. So long as apples app store is good I do not see why the average user would switch to a third party store unless there was some crazy good app that was exclusive to another store. 

Just a reminder that people where not aware of 3rd party browsers at that time.

 

Microsoft even actively combated ANY use of 3rd party browsers by hardware "partners"

 

It also took the EU a new law to force Microsoft to implement a choice window where you could pick your own browser.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu

[D13H4RD]

7 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Well do you see any stores on android that are vastly superior to apples app store? I mean it took alot of time for people to switch off of Microsoft internet explorer even though it sucked and the alternatives were much better. So long as apples app store is good I do not see why the average user would switch to a third party store unless there was some crazy good app that was exclusive to another store. 

It will probably be a similar situation to the Google Play Store.

 

Where the vast majority will get it off the first-party store, but with a small minority having the option to sideload or install an alternative.

 

It's still a win for choice either way.

[mr moose]

8 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Well do you see any stores on android that are vastly superior to apples app store? I mean it took alot of time for people to switch off of Microsoft internet explorer even though it sucked and the alternatives were much better. So long as apples app store is good I do not see why the average user would switch to a third party store unless there was some crazy good app that was exclusive to another store. 

ie for most of it's life was more than adequate if not actually good.  There was no need for anyone to switch bar for personal preference or some rare company policy.

 

But my point was until we get 3rd party stores for ios we won't know if there are going to be better ones or not.   It's only going to take something fashionable and trendy to hit that space like how google hit the search engine space or how twitter hit social media and bang you have a viable alternative.   I've personally never seen android as either fashionable or trendy.

[Brooksie359]

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

ie for most of it's life was more than adequate if not actually good.  There was no need for anyone to switch bar for personal preference or some rare company policy.

 

But my point was until we get 3rd party stores for ios we won't know if there are going to be better ones or not.   It's only going to take something fashionable and trendy to hit that space like how google hit the search engine space or how twitter hit social media and bang you have a viable alternative.   I've personally never seen android as either fashionable or trendy.

Maybe not in the last 5 years or so but when I first started using Chrome is was because it simply ran better than internet explorer at the time. Internet explorer just ran really slow in comparison back when I switched so not really a preference thing but more of a I don't want to have my internet browser run super slow type deal. I will say they did make internet explorer better near the end if it's life and now edge is chromium base so it's now its more like what you described it as. Granted alot once you start using chrom it becomes a pain to switch especially when you use some of it features like saved passwords and other preference settings. Granted I try and not use saved passwords for security reasons but I do know alot of people who use them. 

[mr moose]

28 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Maybe not in the last 5 years or so but when I first started using Chrome is was because it simply ran better than internet explorer at the time. Internet explorer just ran really slow in comparison back when I switched so not really a preference thing but more of a I don't want to have my internet browser run super slow type deal. I will say they did make internet explorer better near the end if it's life and now edge is chromium base so it's now its more like what you described it as. Granted alot once you start using chrom it becomes a pain to switch especially when you use some of it features like saved passwords and other preference settings. Granted I try and not use saved passwords for security reasons but I do know alot of people who use them. 

I started with netscape, I used that until ie 4 or 5 (around 99), I used ie almost exclusively until it's last few years when it was starting to lose to chrome and FF,  I then swapped to FF and haven't gone anywhere else.  Chromes debut is what I would call fashionable and trendy.

[Just that Mario]

Feels like an issue that is an issue to two groups of people

1. Ones trying to spread malware
2. Ones trying to actually do something interesting

 

Out of those two, second group is definitely smaller. Also doesn't side loading already exist in non official ways? Second group wouldn't find that very restrictive. Majority of users will never find lack of side loading being an issue. In reality this has to have proper security and fail safe measures in place. Even legitimate applications from the App Store ask you ridiculous access rights like tracking your activity on other applications and what not (I am bit surprised this is even allowed). Now imagine what sort of crap your average user can get into when side loading an application and it not being in a proper sandbox.

I also generally do not get the thought process of people, who want to use Google applications, but buy an iOS device. Doubt they'd even be compatible.

Just another tech "issue" that politicians are trying to fix, while not having any technical background themselves. Surprised they haven't tried to fix what size bolts automakers may use.

[Brooksie359]

7 minutes ago, Just that Mario said:

Feels like an issue that is an issue to two groups of people

1. Ones trying to spread malware
2. Ones trying to actually do something interesting

 

Out of those two, second group is definitely smaller. Also doesn't side loading already exist in non official ways? Second group wouldn't find that very restrictive. Majority of users will never find lack of side loading being an issue. In reality this has to have proper security and fail safe measures in place. Even legitimate applications from the App Store ask you ridiculous access rights like tracking your activity on other applications and what not (I am bit surprised this is even allowed). Now imagine what sort of crap your average user can get into when side loading an application and it not being in a proper sandbox.

I also generally do not get the thought process of people, who want to use Google applications, but buy an iOS device. Doubt they'd even be compatible.

Just another tech "issue" that politicians are trying to fix, while not having any technical background themselves. Surprised they haven't tried to fix what size bolts automakers may use.

You do know you can get Google stuff on an iPhone through apples own app store right? Also from what I understand it's not easy to get sideloading to work in a non official way without screwing alot of other things up. I am Assuming most would want ios updates especially security ones and I am not sure how that would work if you tried screwing with ios to get sideloading to work.

[Just that Mario]

48 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

You do know you can get Google stuff on an iPhone through apples own app store right? Also from what I understand it's not easy to get sideloading to work in a non official way without screwing alot of other things up. I am Assuming most would want ios updates especially security ones and I am not sure how that would work if you tried screwing with ios to get sideloading to work.

Which then makes previously posted issues and entire side loading "problem" even more irrelevant.

[Brooksie359]

25 minutes ago, Just that Mario said:

Which then makes previously posted issues and entire side loading "problem" even more irrelevant.

Oh they aren't thinking about this from a we need sideloading to allow us to get all the apps we want more so it's a matter of competition and the lack of any alternatives on ios devices other than the apple app store. 

[Just that Mario]

46 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Oh they aren't thinking about this from a we need sideloading to allow us to get all the apps we want more so it's a matter of competition and the lack of any alternatives on ios devices other than the apple app store. 

Then why would a consumer need an alternative to something to works perfectly?

You could copy-cat Linus and call it "consumer choice", but you already made your "consumer's choice" when you bought the device. You bought a coffee machine and now you want it to brew different kind of coffee. Do you think the machine should have a firmware update to do it because of "consumer choice"? Nvidia comes out with some feature, but I am on an AMD GPU. I also want that Nvidia feature. Should Nvidia now supply that feature to AMD and AMD should implement it? At some point this "consumers choice" becomes "consumers inability to live with the choice they made".

Not to mention politicians making decisions how technology has to develop is simply bad. Let's be real - politicians are corrupt and they can and are manipulated into supporting certain views. Those views may not be correct and best for the regular pleb nor the industry.

[Brooksie359]

10 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

Then why would a consumer need an alternative to something to works perfectly?

You could copy-cat Linus and call it "consumer choice", but you already made your "consumer's choice" when you bought the device. You bought a coffee machine and now you want it to brew different kind of coffee. Do you think the machine should have a firmware update to do it because of "consumer choice"? Nvidia comes out with some feature, but I am on an AMD GPU. I also want that Nvidia feature. Should Nvidia now supply that feature to AMD and AMD should implement it? At some point this "consumers choice" becomes "consumers inability to live with the choice they made".

Not to mention politicians making decisions how technology has to develop is simply bad. Let's be real - politicians are corrupt and they can and are manipulated into supporting certain views. Those views may not be correct and best for the regular pleb nor the industry.

Honestly I do not agree with the competition argument as much as it would lead to the console business model not viable anymore if they were also forced to allow third party stores on their devices as they sell consoles at a loss so they can recoup their cost by selling stuff on their store. But again that doesn't change the fact competition is their argument. 

[wanderingfool2]

11 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

Then why would a consumer need an alternative to something to works perfectly?

It ignores the aspect of developers though, where Apple holds almost 50% of the market in the US.  There are compromises being made by the developers to be on Apple's platform, and some of the requests by Apple are frankly undeniably bad.  (All you need to do is look at Floatplane and the horrendous things they had to do to get it on iPhones).

 

11 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

At some point this "consumers choice" becomes "consumers inability to live with the choice they made"

Apple tries to tie people into their ecosystem so that it becomes incredibly hard to move away from their platform.  I don't always agree with regulations, but at a certain point when a company gets too dominate in a given field there needs to be something that needs to change from preventing them from trying to exploit their position at the detriment of the consumers

 

[mr moose]

16 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

Then why would a consumer need an alternative to something to works perfectly?
 

Only you and a rare few think it works perfectly.    Unless you mean perfect in apples perspective of making money out from not giving developers any choice or options.

[darknessblade]

21 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

You do know you can get Google stuff on an iPhone through apples own app store right? Also from what I understand it's not easy to get sideloading to work in a non official way without screwing alot of other things up. I am Assuming most would want ios updates especially security ones and I am not sure how that would work if you tried screwing with ios to get sideloading to work.

The only reason for that is because now apple forces you to use their appstore to get google/other devs their apps.

After it has been implemented I can guarantee you google and a large portion of devs will move to their own/a 3rd party appstore that charges lower rates as opposed to apple.

[Brooksie359]

4 hours ago, darknessblade said:

The only reason for that is because now apple forces you to use their appstore to get google/other devs their apps.

After it has been implemented I can guarantee you google and a large portion of devs will move to their own/a 3rd party appstore that charges lower rates as opposed to apple.

That is a big speculation you have there. I doubt Google would pull their apps from Apple's app store. Sure they will be on the third party app stores as well but that isn't the point as it will likely still he on apples app store. Also Googles apps don't cost money so those lower rates mean nothing to Google. The only incentive would be to force people to use Google play store to get the apps and then maybe convert them to using only the Google Play store so they can get a cut off all of the things they buy on Google play store. Still I feel like they would get backlash if they did this and they might want people's data more than they want to force people to use the Google Play store. 

[mr moose]

21 hours ago, darknessblade said:

The only reason for that is because now apple forces you to use their appstore to get google/other devs their apps.

After it has been implemented I can guarantee you google and a large portion of devs will move to their own/a 3rd party appstore that charges lower rates as opposed to apple.

I would say they are more likely to do it as well as the app store,   No one with half a business brain closes a sales channel unless it becomes a liability.

[Kisai]

On 12/25/2022 at 5:24 AM, darknessblade said:

The only reason for that is because now apple forces you to use their appstore to get google/other devs their apps.

After it has been implemented I can guarantee you google and a large portion of devs will move to their own/a 3rd party appstore that charges lower rates as opposed to apple.

I doubt it. Most people are happy with the devil they know.

 

I see only two outcomes:

1. Apple lets third party stories, and some country-specific app store, possibly run by the government (such as in China or Russia) becomes a "buy from our store, or you hate your country" type of propaganda tool

or

2. Companies like Epic, Origin, Ubisoft, etc all put their stores on the device, and nobody uses them, they become stores for their own products.

 

Like I find it really ballsy that Epic thinks their "store" is any good. It is so stubbornly slow on a high end PC, what makes you think I want that experience on a mobile phone that has 1/4 of the actual processing power.

 

[darknessblade]

On 12/26/2022 at 11:38 AM, mr moose said:

I would say they are more likely to do it as well as the app store,   No one with half a business brain closes a sales channel unless it becomes a liability.

That would only be the case if Apple would not be a asshole and modify their dev terms

Where you are not allowed to have your app on multiple appstores.