LTT on Mastodon

[Kisai]

21 hours ago, Middcore said:

Isn't a big part of Mastadon's whole thing is that it isn't one site, it's a bunch of servers each with their own management similar to Discord?

The problem with Mastodon is that it's silo'd.

 

Silo'd social networks are basically a similar concept to discord servers. There is always someone in control of the server, moderating it. It operates at a smaller scale than twitter. However, because it's silo'd, that means you're basically in a preaching-to-the-choir setup which works fine if you're in a peer group, eg "tech journalists" but not "tech fans"

 

Much of the problem can be levied at how de-centralized systems tend to fail to address why things become centralized.

 

People used twitter, because their friends are using twitter, or the people they are fans of are using twitter. If they are not there, and are silo'd off into another server, then there is no point being in server A where the person is if you're not part of Server A's silo'd community and there's no point making account somewhere else because you won't see person's A content unless you're the one to repost it to yours.

 

It's like how many of you are in 10+ discord servers? Now how many of you actually interact with all of them? For me, it's at most, two. The rest are there to occasionally read, but I'm not in their "fan community" more or less. There is not enough time in the world to interact with other fans of whatever thing the discord I'm in is for. If I can't interact with the person I'm a fan of, then it's a pointless effort. That's why Twitter is good, because you can interact (even if it's largely ignored) with the person you're a fan of, and sometimes they will interact back. But Discord? No that stuff just disappears into void after a few hours unless you go looking for it.

 

And that's the problem with Mastodon as well. It good to be on it, but you're unlikely to actually use it because of the silo'd nature unless you're using it with a peer community (eg journalists, artists) but you aren't going to use it to get clients, and that's why creators won't use it.

 

If people are wondering where everyone is going:

Tumblr - if they're a general content creator

Youtube - yes, there are social media posts on youtube that barely anyone uses. 

Tiktok - if you're just into video

Patreon-like services (eg Patreon, Onlyfans, Fansly, Subscribestar, Fanbox)

Facebook/Instagram - I've heard of a few people going back to IG  but otherwise it's a dead service due to Meta also setting the place on fire.

DeviantArt or Pixiv - For non-comic/manga artists to post their artwork.

 

Mastodon appears to be appealing to a cross section of microblogging journalists, but it's just not appealing and too complicated for non-tech people to understand.

Cohost is another service that seems to want to emulate the look and feel of twitter, but *shrug* that's about it.

 

I think people need to stop and look before going "where are people fleeing twitter to?" because it's more likely that twitter is a ship that is already sinking, and it's the owner who set the fires. Just because one service is touted as the place to go, doesn't mean everyone is going there. Mastodon's core principles are actually more sensible than twitter, but people will read it as left-leaning, which means that it will be much more of a left-wing echo chamber over time.  https://joinmastodon.org/covenant

 

But before I discourage anyone...

 

There are mastodon servers who are disconnected from the federated "universe" due to hate or other illegal activities.

 

https://axbom.com/fediverse/

 

So maybe Twitter's collapse will push some innovation here, but I think it's just going to result in a bunch of these merging and then breaking off when the need for ad revenue to operate it becomes high enough that it can't self-finance.

[Arika]

31 minutes ago, Heats with Nvidia said:

 at least with this platform there is a possibility to change this

But How?

[Heats with Nvidia]

41 minutes ago, Kisai said:

The problem with Mastodon is that it's silo'd.

Thank you for his, that clears it up a bit. The good part is, i don`t search an alternative for Twitter, since i never used it in the first place,

but i actually hope that i will finally see a form of social media in my life that i don`t pay with every bit of data about me and thats not controlled by an entity that can be sold or sell it, so i can finally try one.

20 minutes ago, Arika S said:

But How?

I have no idea and if i would, i would probably get a lot of money for its implementation. But with the current system i don`t see a way to implement that solution if it ever will be found.

[darwin006]

@LinusTechYou can wonder and speculate if a decentralized social media can moderate the way you would like or you could give one a try.

[LogicalDrm]

2 hours ago, darwin006 said:

@LinusTechYou can wonder and speculate if a decentralized social media can moderate the way you would like or you could give one a try.

I doubt it will be about moderation. It will about reach. If the potential new views/followers are counted in hundreds, the worth from niche platform is very questionable. If there's thousands to gain, then it's more likely.

 

If LMG would have issue on unfair moderation on some platform and there wouldn't be any benefits or drawbacks, do you really think they would be on Twitter, YouTube or even Twitch?

[ocanada_techguy]

Add my name to the list who think LTT should build a better alternative.  Heck build an incubator and support the best projects.  We KNOW from how LTT have handled difficult tech issues in the past that they would totally have the best interests of the community at heart, and not put-up with any nonsense from corporate spin doctors.

[HAFBlade]

I would also love to have ltt at Mastodon. I suppose they already use the Twitter API and others, so that they don't have to write eveything 100 times. Adding Mastodon to this shouldn't be a huge issue, in the first place.

[ForboJack]

I would really like to see an LTT video about Mastodon. Maybe run an LTT Mastodon account for a few weeks, test it thoroughly and then make a video about it and why they'll keep using it or not. Similar to the Linux challenge just that they don't stop using twitter in that time.

Mastodon checks a lot of the modern tech buzzwords, but without the Blockchain or NFT bullshit. It's a geeky product and I'm sure it would make an interesting video.

[Scary le Poo]

Why is it being ignored that LTT could simply run their own pod? The fact that you can spin up your own pod pretty much defeats the moderation issues outright. If an outside pod is toxic, it can be de-federated easily. Common pod banlists are probably not far on the horizon.

 

Edit: The more of these replies that I read I realize that many simply don't understand the power of decentralization. Does it solve every problem possible? No, but it solves enough of them that a closer look is warranted.

Perhaps this article would be useful

https://www.wired.com/story/the-man-behind-mastodon-eugen-rochko-built-it-for-this-moment/

 

And this snippet stolen from deseret.com:

Quote

Mastodon is decentralized, meaning there is no single corporate entity that owns and runs the service. Each Mastodon “instance” is operated by the creator of the server it runs on, with its rules also being dictated by each creator. Users are still able to interact across servers, but can join and leave instances as they please. This flexibility allows server owners to respond to the needs of its users, according to the official Mastodon website. You can “join a server with the rules you agree with, or host your own.”

 

[Needfuldoer]

2 hours ago, Scary le Poo said:

Why is it being ignored that LTT could simply run their own pod?

They already run a far superior social platform.

[Arika]

2 hours ago, Scary le Poo said:

Why is it being ignored that LTT could simply run their own pod? The fact that you can spin up your own pod pretty much defeats the moderation issues outright. If an outside pod is toxic, it can be de-federated easily. Common pod banlists are probably not far on the horizon.

what benefit does mastodon have for LTT over any other platform (including this forum) that isn't just "well it's decentralized!!!"

[CirnoFumo]

After reading this thread I realized 2 things, most people don't understand how federation works and that youtube, twitter, Meta and more won't die anytime soon even if they are worst than the devil itself.

 

For federation, I get the impression that people thinks that each server is their separated walled garden community but in reality it isn't. The best example to explain how federation works is e-mail.

 

E-mail for the ones who doesn't know is a type of federated service, this is what allows you to have a gmail, hotmail, protonmail, yahoo mail and even hosting your own e-mail server and talk with users and people on other e-mail servers, this ability of talking with people on other servers is what federation is, so if you have for example a account on a LTT mastodon server and someone else on the mastodon, pleroma or whatever other mastodon server(I know that in reality is an AP server), you can talk between each other without needing an account on their servers because the social network is federated like an e-mail.

 

Now about the reason why twitter, youtube and others won't die soon or never, is only because of network effect, as many people on this thread and even @LinusTechstated in Wan Shows and even on twitter, other platforms like Odysee and Mastodon, don't and won't have the same network as in users, reach and more, making it not worthy(due to time, costs and more) for them to join.

 

Unfortunately the problem with network effect is that it takes a lot of effort and time to change it, one of the ways to force the change is to make big players like Linus, MBKHD and other big internet personas to go to alternative places too, in mastodon and odysee case for example, would be something like to crosspost and post the videos there too, as this can and would drive more people to there and thus lowering a bit of the network effect that those platforms has.

 

The main problem with the network effect that twitter and youtube has is that they have is that twitter for example, had an average of 220 Millions MAU last year, this is a very big number that takes decades to build, so it's almost impossible to an alternative with those numbers to exists

[Arika]

5 hours ago, CirnoFumo said:

After reading this thread I realized 2 things, most people don't understand how federation works and that youtube, twitter, Meta and more won't die anytime soon even if they are worst than the devil itself.

 

For federation, I get the impression that people thinks that each server is their separated walled garden community but in reality it isn't. The best example to explain how federation works is e-mail.

 

E-mail for the ones who doesn't know is a type of federated service, this is what allows you to have a gmail, hotmail, protonmail, yahoo mail and even hosting your own e-mail server and talk with users and people on other e-mail servers, this ability of talking with people on other servers is what federation is, so if you have for example a account on a LTT mastodon server and someone else on the mastodon, pleroma or whatever other mastodon server(I know that in reality is an AP server), you can talk between each other without needing an account on their servers because the social network is federated like an e-mail.

 

Now about the reason why twitter, youtube and others won't die soon or never, is only because of network effect, as many people on this thread and even @LinusTechstated in Wan Shows and even on twitter, other platforms like Odysee and Mastodon, don't and won't have the same network as in users, reach and more, making it not worthy(due to time, costs and more) for them to join.

 

Unfortunately the problem with network effect is that it takes a lot of effort and time to change it, one of the ways to force the change is to make big players like Linus, MBKHD and other big internet personas to go to alternative places too, in mastodon and odysee case for example, would be something like to crosspost and post the videos there too, as this can and would drive more people to there and thus lowering a bit of the network effect that those platforms has.

 

The main problem with the network effect that twitter and youtube has is that they have is that twitter for example, had an average of 220 Millions MAU last year, this is a very big number that takes decades to build, so it's almost impossible to an alternative with those numbers to exists

Same question

 

11 hours ago, Arika S said:

what benefit does mastodon have for LTT over any other platform (including this forum) that isn't just "well it's decentralized!!!"

 

[CirnoFumo]

3 hours ago, Arika S said:

what benefit does mastodon have for LTT over any other platform (including this forum) that isn't just "well it's decentralized!!!"

First this forum isn't a microblogging platform like twitter. The benefit of it would be LTT itself being the ones controlling the server, so their rules, people, moderation and more while they can reach and talk to people on other server as if it was on their own

[Arika]

9 minutes ago, CirnoFumo said:

First this forum isn't a microblogging platform like twitter. The benefit of it would be LTT itself being the ones controlling the server, so their rules, people, moderation and more while they can reach and talk to people on other server as if it was on their own

What rules do you foresee them needing that isn't already a global rule on twitter?

 

Who is going to be the moderators? Their staff? They have other roles within the company they need to do.

The community? Discord and reddit have shown that to be a terrible option.

 

Seems like a lot of work and potential resources for such a small audience

[Mark Kaine]

honestly they could post there but it wouldn't make much sense because its not an established platform and probably never will be... (its a fail concept to begin with imo)

 

but once there *is* a new , established platform you can be sure ltt will post there.

 

 

 

 

[Mark Kaine]

4 hours ago, CirnoFumo said:

The benefit of it would be LTT itself being the ones controlling the server, so their rules, people, moderation and more while they can reach and talk to people on other server as if it was on their own

that just sounds like discord/reddit...

 

there isn't really any benefit in splitting the community any further... twitter has its purpose,  but since it's basically already dead (if you haven't  noticed) you just have to wait for something similar to replace it... soon'ish. it doesn’t make much sense rushing onto another platform,  that works completely different and isnt established yet, actually stuff like this can backfire too, or simply isn't worth the effort .

 

14 hours ago, CirnoFumo said:

network effect

no. its dead already. its also not financially feasible in any way.

 

once trust is broken, network effect becomes useless... thing is apparently its not happening instantly,  but it will happen because the foundation is already gone. 

 

meta, etc, will drag on, because they apparently at least understand basic business concepts,  unlike a certain other, ahm, bird. 

 

 

 

 

 

[LinusTech]

Our long-term plan to ensure that our online presence doesn't disappear on the whim of some billionaire or other is and always has been this forum.

It's the one thing we can completely control and run the way we feel is right. 

[CirnoFumo]

10 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

that just sounds like discord/reddit

It isn't, it's a federated Twitter, if you go to any instance like this one for example https://mastodon.social/explore

 

You will see below every user there's a format @username@server, this is because the services are federated and you don't see the separation of servers in rooms or groups.

 

Unfortunately explaining federation in layman terms is hard.

 

 

10 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

no. its dead already. its also not financially feasible in any way.

 

once trust is broken, network effect becomes useless... thing is apparently its not happening instantly,  but it will happen because the foundation is already gone. 

But what's the alternative? Mastodon is one of the best out there and you and a lot of people says that isn't worthy because there's isn't a big userbase, reach or market for it.

 

I see Linus and 90% of people here complaining that Twitter is dead but they are still there

 

13 hours ago, Arika S said:

Seems like a lot of work and potential resources for such a small audience

That's my reasoning why Twitter won't die and Linus won't go to mastodon, Twitter network effect is too big

[Middcore]

If we can expect LTT to put as much effort into Mastadon as they've put into Discord, it's probably for the best they don't bother.

[wanderingfool2]

An issue that I see with Mastodon is that they allow for instances to read the DM's of people using it (and in cases people have been kicked for criticizing within a DM a server).

 

There is I think an issue of a communal moderation where there really arent set guidelines in terms of what is and isn't allowed.  Mastodon is effectively discord, except that it's worse in that they allow mods to read the DM's of other people.

 

It's not really a replacement for Twitter, where there would be a global set of rules that people know they must follow.

[Mark Kaine]

4 hours ago, CirnoFumo said:

Unfortunately explaining federation in layman terms is hard.

it's actually really easy: its dumb.

 

instead of one "dictator" (which wasn't even true for twitter before spaceman bought it on a whim) you get tons of "mini-dictators", that's even worse.

 

no a twitter replacement needs to be open, easily embedded, and especially easily accessible even without an account... mastofail is none of that ... 

 

the idea this weird website or app would be a replacement for "anything" is hilarious... you're better off to sticking to a news forum instead. 

 

like it's not even trying to be like twitter, no idea why some people think it would... its something completely unrelated,  and yes, its basically discord, good for small communities,  but *that's literally it*

 

 

1 hour ago, wanderingfool2 said:

It's not really a replacement for Twitter, where there would be a global set of rules that people know they must follow.

and i have no idea why some people are trying to make it one... lol

[Kisai]

7 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

An issue that I see with Mastodon is that they allow for instances to read the DM's of people using it (and in cases people have been kicked for criticizing within a DM a server).

 

There is I think an issue of a communal moderation where there really arent set guidelines in terms of what is and isn't allowed.  Mastodon is effectively discord, except that it's worse in that they allow mods to read the DM's of other people.

 

It's not really a replacement for Twitter, where there would be a global set of rules that people know they must follow.

The analogy I've seen kicked around is using Mastodon or any other service of the fediverse in that context is like being forced to follow the HOA (Home Owner Association) or Strata (Condo owners) rules but not having much say in who writes the rules.

 

A huge in-joke in Canadian and American culture is that HOA and Strata companies are paid to do nothing but be an incredible nuisance and people develop a combative tit-for-tat, eye-for-an-eye defensive tactic for surviving having bought into these places. If someone complains about the color of your fence, you are forced to change it, and if you don't, you get fined until you do, or maybe there is a rule in place that the maintenance workers will be "repainting everyone's fences X color, don't like it, too damn bad."

 

So yeah, if you didn't like how Twitter moderated things, you'll loathe how Mastodon and other services based on it operate.

 

[Isuck Assimov]

great for people with a baseline of technical knowledge and desire to support Open Source. But i can understand why the federated setup is a little scary and seems complicated for laypeople.

[Mark Kaine]

On 11/25/2022 at 2:16 PM, Assimov said:

great for people with a baseline of technical knowledge and desire to support Open Source. But i can understand why the federated setup is a little scary and seems complicated for laypeople.

i have to say i don't think that's the main issue... although it doesn't help and long term it will inevitably lead to huge issues (server wars basically) and also literally makes no sense, why would you *need* different rules within a single website/ forum/ social media thing... it's total chaos... but no, the main issue is it doesn't work like twitter so it cant really replace it, the design is also one of the worst I've seen...

 

for testing/ demonstration  purposes, here i share a post with you: 

 

 

If you enjoy someone's post on #Mastodon go ahead and click the star. If someone tells you that's meaningless because there's no #algorithm, ignore them. Sure, boost the post too if you want others to also see the post, but don't think telling someone you like what they posted is somehow unimportant. In real life I don't tell someone, "good job," or "well said," or "I love that," for the sake of some algorithm, I do it because I'm human and they are too. It's fundamental to being truly social. https://mastodon.social/@tuckerteague/109410848797847195

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you see what the issue is?  We aren't in the 90s anymore,  that's issue. 

 

id rather join a irc or whatever tbh, that had at least style.

 

 

of course there are more issues with jumping head on into a social media network without knowing who the owners are, what their goals are, etc, but for now i see this as the main issue,  its just not practical or attractive. And there is no algorithm of course,  that's the worst thing,  so the thing will forever show me stuff i couldn't care less about,  unless i "curate" my own list of posters that may interest me (and whom I'll never catch all).

 

the fun/interesting thing about "social media" is finding new and interesting stuff effortlessly... this is not possible here, specifically because making a good algorithm is difficult and this ... website... just cannot/ doesn't want to put in the effort to make one. 

that's fine of course, but its not a replacement for twitter,  its quite literally the opposite (from a user experience view point)

 

 

 

ps: yeah, linking that post worked about as well as i expected