Where is our PC market going? Why nobody teams up to stop this on a political level ?

[papajo]

Like today I saw this (https://geizhals.eu/asus-rog-crosshair-x670e-extreme-a2791721.html?hloc=at&hloc=de&hloc=eu&hloc=pl&hloc=uk) 





And the cheapest AM5 one costs like close to 300 euro (270) and has NOTHING not even boot and reset buttons or troubleshooting digital led indicators lol 

Like the PC market companies are totally deranged, I want linus to contact some reps or even better CEOs e.g from Asus (but they are not allone just mention them as an example) and ask them WHAT KIND OF DRUGS DO THEY USE? 

I mean it is totally deranged a MOTHERBOARD (PCB with passive components soldered in it )  costing MORE than the MOST EXPENSIVE CPU it is designed to facilitate!! ( 7950x)

A CPU that is already overpriced AF beyond any sense (800 euro) and the mobo COSTS MORE THAN IT, there is no reason to be polite with them we need to just ask them if they use illegal drugs on the regular! 

It all started with the GPU (long before mining Nvidia got derailed) but """""ok""""" (purposefully ok is put in so many quotes) at least the GPU is  like an active and key component to do your job on a computer either if you are a gamer or if you design stuff or do AI etc... 

now MOTHERBOARDS? 

Whats next?  PSUs costing more than the CPU? 

And I repeat its not that the CPUs have gone down in price and are cheap they are all ready OVERPRICED AF WAAAAYYYY beyond their production cost like x10 their production cost or close to that! 

WTF is going on people why nobody cares to do something and we accept everything they slap on us? 

2.5K for the GPU 800 for the CPU 1.1k for a MOTHERBOARD like at this rate one can buy a nice car instead of a gaming pc what kind of drugs do they use? 

 

[ZetZet]

Just don't buy it?

[papajo]

1 minute ago, ZetZet said:

Just don't buy it?

I wont but people needs PCs and they have to eventually buy but things are getting more and more ridiculous and they end up paying the extra cocaine lines of the deranged CEOs to get basic garbage.... I mean 211 euro for this? 



1 year before that with 200 euro you got mobo with wifiBT sli/crossfire boot buttons and so on and so forth....


But it is a matter of principle! (and of morality, and of legality ) 

Like what was asus thinking pricing a mobo 300 euro MORE EXPNSIVE than the INFLATED price of the most expensive CPU it can carry??? What were they thinking? or they just shoot up heavy drugs ? 

[ZetZet]

3 minutes ago, papajo said:

But it is a matter of principle! (and of morality, and of legality ) 

Morality is not a defined concept. And it's legal to sell whatever you want for whatever amount you want as long as you find buyers. PC hardware is getting more expensive, because it's becoming a very popular hobby. Hobbies are expensive, popular hobbies even more expensive. 

 

No one actually NEEDS a high-end or even a mid range computer. You can get a computer that does basic things for like 50 euros. 

 

[papajo]

2 minutes ago, ZetZet said:

Morality is not a defined concept. And it's legal to sell whatever you want for whatever amount you want as long as you find buyers. PC hardware is getting more expensive, because it's becoming a very popular hobby. Hobbies are expensive, popular hobbies even more expensive. 

 

No one actually NEEDS a high-end or even a mid range computer. You can get a computer that does basic things for like 50 euros. 

Stop talking about things you dont seem to know anything about and pretend you know. 


price gouging is illegal https://www.ncsl.org/research/financial-services-and-commerce/price-gouging-state-statutes.aspx

And morality is a defined concept.  Maybe people like you are the problem and this deranged retailers take advantage of you and rest of us are just collateral damage. 

[ZetZet]

2 minutes ago, papajo said:

Stop talking about things you dont seem to know anything about and pretend you know. 


price gouging is illegal https://www.ncsl.org/research/financial-services-and-commerce/price-gouging-state-statutes.aspx

For necessities often after a disaster. You do not seem to understand what price gouging regulation actually means. 

3 minutes ago, papajo said:

And morality is a defined concept.

No it isn't. It depends on what portion of a society you are talking about. Vegans think eating animals is immoral for example. 

[dizmo]

You really need to calm down.

 

It's not price gouging. You're looking at a top tier motherboard, and complaining about the price? Ridiculous. There's always been motherboards in that price category.

If you can't afford it, stick to the lower tiers of products?

 

Politics should have nothing to do with luxury consumer goods. Period.

You don't need a high end gaming PC to survive.

[Stormseeker9]

Ever heard of supply and demand? That is how pricing works on products. 
 

keeping supply tight whilst demand is high will increase prices (because people are willing to pay for it). 
 

has nothing to do with immorality or anything else. It is how the economy works. 
 

do I agree with these prices? No. Would I buy it? No.

Is it legal? Yes.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Stormseeker9
Changed wording to increase

[manikyath]

something i'd like to add to this train wreck is that signal integrity is expensive.

 

faster memory speed, faster PCIe speeds, more PCIe lanes, more faster USB...

 

all this takes a TON of engineering and validation to get right, which increases the cost to produce motherboards.

 

past that the expected power output from VRM's has gone from '100 watts is fine' to "really needing 200 watts or more capacity". this adds to the BOM cost.

 

then add some component price and availability 'uncertainties' to this.. and there's why motherboards have gotten more expensive.

[abit-sean]

Coming from a motherboard manufacturing background I can tell you that there is very little profit margin on high end products. We made most of our money from mass production of low tier boards that we would then sell to SI's. The next biggest sellers were mid tier products sold to home builders, then a small amount would buy the top tier which would only make 2-3% profit on. Once you start factoring in paying people like to carry BIOS, RMA support and renting a building to house us in you soon start eating in to your profits.

 

People see a hugh price tag and just assume that equals a big profit, it just doesn't work that way.

[An0maly_76]

2 hours ago, papajo said:

I mean it is totally deranged a MOTHERBOARD (PCB with passive components soldered in it )  costing MORE than the MOST EXPENSIVE CPU it is designed to facilitate!! ( 7950x)

I have heard of nothing but issues from AM5 owners since its release, even more-so from those who have upgraded to Win11, regardless of platform. The latest and greatest is not always the best way to go.

 

I warned people about this and other potential issues when they started salivating over the AM5, even going out of their way to rib me for opting for a top-shelf "dead-end platform" AM4 build (when AMD has clearly stated AM4 isn't going anywhere, suggesting they know the AM5 has issues), rather than wait for AMD to blow a tentative release date, then blow another, over a platform they simply couldn't prove was worth the wait or the extra money for the boards / CPUs and the DDR5 / PCIe4 components they push or require.

 

The worst part about getting the latest and greatest is that no one has any working knowledge or real-world experience with it, so you're left to your own devices if you run into problems, and that's exactly why I built what I built when I built it.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by An0maly_76
Revised, more info

[An0maly_76]

1 minute ago, abit-sean said:

Coming from a motherboard manufacturing background I can tell you that there is very little profit margin on high end products. We made most of our money from mass production of low tier boards that we would then sell to SI's. The next biggest sellers were mid tier products sold to home builders, then a small amount would buy the top tier which would only make 2-3% profit on. Once you start factoring in paying people like to carry BIOS, RMA support and renting a building to house us in you soon start eating in to your profits.

 

People see a hugh price tag and just assume that equals a big profit, it just doesn't work that way.

Yep, people never stop to think about the research and development involved in creating new products. I personally think the AM5 was not sufficiently tested (see my previous post), and was hence rushed through to market without knowledge of (or perhaps in spite of known) issues.

[Arika]

ah yes, lets get government intervention on gaming PC parts.

[abit-sean]

1 hour ago, An0maly_76 said:

Yep, people never stop to think about the research and development involved in creating new products. I personally think the AM5 was not sufficiently tested (see my previous post), and was hence rushed through to market without knowledge of (or perhaps in spite of known) issues.

Products are released all the time with known issues. They always have a plan to issue ECNs and new BIOS releases to sort out these problems after the release date.

[jaslion]

1 hour ago, An0maly_76 said:

Yep, people never stop to think about the research and development involved in creating new products. I personally think the AM5 was not sufficiently tested (see my previous post), and was hence rushed through to market without knowledge of (or perhaps in spite of known) issues.

I mean this has basically been every single new platform release ever. Very rarely does it go well from the getgo.

[Blademaster91]

4 hours ago, papajo said:

And the cheapest AM5 one costs like close to 300 euro (270) and has NOTHING not even boot and reset buttons or troubleshooting digital led indicators lol 

Like the PC market companies are totally deranged, I want linus to contact some reps or even better CEOs e.g from Asus (but they are not allone just mention them as an example) and ask them WHAT KIND OF DRUGS DO THEY USE? 

The new boards are expensive because they're new, early adopters of the AM5 platform get to pay the early adopter tax. Other than that manufacturers are charging whatever the gamers with more money than sense are willing to pay.

But I am disappointed that new boards have less features yet cost more, boards at the $150 level used to have BIOS code LED's on them, and now boards at that level have only the most basic features, with no decent midrange, either pay $300 for a a motherboard, or get the bare minimum for what a decent midrange board used to cost.

I would be interested in seeing what the cost of each component in a motherboard is, though I wouldn't expect LTT to investigate this as companies like Asus pay LMG to promote their high end boards.

4 hours ago, ZetZet said:

Just don't buy it?

Voting with your wallet doesn't work, especially when most people will buy it anyway, and there aren't much other options when most decent boards are $250-300 nowadays.

4 hours ago, ZetZet said:

PC hardware is getting more expensive, because it's becoming a very popular hobby. Hobbies are expensive, popular hobbies even more expensive. 

Building a PC has been a popular hobby for quite a while, so that really isn't a good excuse, there are plenty of hobbies that are cheap, and I find it ridiculous people want to gatekeep building a PC and PC gaming by just saying the hobby needs to be expensive.

[Beerzerker]

14 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

The new boards are expensive because they're new, early adopters of the AM5 platform get to pay the early adopter tax. Other than that manufacturers are charging whatever the gamers with more money than sense are willing to pay.

But I am disappointed that new boards have less features yet cost more, boards at the $150 level used to have BIOS code LED's on them, and now boards at that level have only the most basic features, with no decent midrange, either pay $300 for a a motherboard, or get the bare minimum for what a decent midrange board used to cost.

I would be interested in seeing what the cost of each component in a motherboard is, though I wouldn't expect LTT to investigate this as companies like Asus pay LMG to promote their high end boards.

Voting with your wallet doesn't work, especially when most people will buy it anyway, and there aren't much other options when most decent boards are $250-300 nowadays.

Building a PC has been a popular hobby for quite a while, so that really isn't a good excuse, there are plenty of hobbies that are cheap, and I find it ridiculous people want to gatekeep building a PC and PC gaming by just saying the hobby needs to be expensive.

Actually voting with the wallet does work - Problem is getting everyone voting the same way for it to work in the first place. 

All I can say is if you want high-end parts, expect to pay high-end prices.

Just realize anytime you get the gov involved, that can go sideways in so many ways but quick - And there is a chance it can go sideways to the extreme too.
Best to leave them out of it.

[ZetZet]

44 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Voting with your wallet doesn't work, especially when most people will buy it anyway, and there aren't much other options when most decent boards are $250-300 nowadays.

 

Building a PC has been a popular hobby for quite a while, so that really isn't a good excuse, there are plenty of hobbies that are cheap, and I find it ridiculous people want to gatekeep building a PC and PC gaming by just saying the hobby needs to be expensive.

Voting with your wallet works perfectly well, it's just that most people think the prices are reasonable enough and buy it. It's like complaining about iPhone prices. 

 

That's not what I'm saying though. Popularity is what is making it expensive. The hobby is growing that means there is a huge demand for new hardware especially. 

 

We don't even have to look at PC, look at consoles, they haven't been selling for MSRP for how long now? 

 

You can reasonably expect new generation consoles to be even more expensive. Maybe PS5 Pro launches for a 1000 dollars when the current PS5 can't run titles at 60 fps anymore (which is coming soon).

[Blademaster91]

29 minutes ago, Beerzerker said:

Actually voting with the wallet does work - Problem is getting everyone voting the same way for it to work in the first place. 

All I can say is if you want high-end parts, expect to pay high-end prices.

Just realize anytime you get the gov involved, that can go sideways in so many ways but quick - And there is a chance it can go sideways to the extreme too.
Best to leave them out of it.

Getting everyone to vote and not buy things only works if the price becomes so high its unattainable for most people.

And my problem with high end parts prices are prices are silly now, high end motherboards are $700+, graphics cards over $1500.

I don't want the govt getting involved in controlling prices either, it wouldn't work or the govt would get involved and make things even more expensive. People wanting the govt to get involved also reminds me of prebuilt gaming PC's with high end graphics cards getting banned in some states.

[ZetZet]

11 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

And my problem with high end parts prices are prices are silly now, high end motherboards are $700+, graphics cards over $1500.

But that's not even expensive. When I was a kid a basic desktop cost 2000-3000 dollars and it wasn't nearly as capable AND we had inflation since then. 

 

PC gamers just got really used to cheap hardware during the golden times of die shrinks. Now that die shrinks alone aren't able to bring more performance the prices will go up again. 

 

Oh and don't forget just how small and weak PC hardware used to be. For example, this was the top of the line card from ATi in 2007 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-hd-3870.c203 look at the die size. It's a lot smaller than a 3050 which most gamers these days think is too weak to even care about. And it's built on a much simpler process node. 

[Middcore]

It's not the government's job to ensure you can afford your toys.

[Rex Hite]

Yes. Today's 'expensive' stuff is cheap. Very cheap considering their capabilities. I think they should be more expensive. I think there should be "sin' taxes applied to gaming cards and gaming peripherals. The prices should reflect real costs and not just what satisfies shareholders.

[papajo]

1 hour ago, Rex Hite said:

Yes. Today's 'expensive' stuff is cheap

Dude you are saying that on a topic where you see a 1K motherboard that does nothing special other than being more expensive than a 7950x and is the same thing compared to 200-300 euro (also expensive btw) AM4 motherboards the only difference being that this one has the am5 socket lol ....

 

 

1 hour ago, Rex Hite said:

Very cheap considering their capabilities

No the exact opposite is true each new year the capabilities remain the same or increase marginally but the pricetag increases almost geometrically. 

 

1 hour ago, Rex Hite said:

The prices should reflect real costs and not just what satisfies shareholders.

I think that too, which confuses me as to what you say before and after this point... were you just being sarcastic? 

Unless you dont understand that if the prices reflected on the real cost (which an reasonable profit on top of that for all the people involved in the chain e.g retailers. ) the most expensive mobo with all the bells and wistles would cost about 200 to 250 euro

a 7950 would go for about 500-600 euro 

And a 4090 for about 350-450 euro 

add like 50 -100 for countries with very high VAT/tariffs or small markets in remote areas of the world. 

[Blue4130]

1 hour ago, ZetZet said:

But that's not even expensive. When I was a kid a basic desktop cost 2000-3000 dollars and it wasn't nearly as capable AND we had inflation since then. 

 

PC gamers just got really used to cheap hardware during the golden times of die shrinks. Now that die shrinks alone aren't able to bring more performance the prices will go up again. 

 

Oh and don't forget just how small and weak PC hardware used to be. For example, this was the top of the line card from ATi in 2007 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-hd-3870.c203 look at the die size. It's a lot smaller than a 3050 which most gamers these days think is too weak to even care about. And it's built on a much simpler process node. 

Agreed.

[papajo]

4 minutes ago, Blue4130 said:

Agreed.

That's BS that's back when computers were not even a thing no economies of scale or market and everything was hard to fabricate and basically was made custom ....


Make more apples to apples comparisons like prices in 2004 to 2010 for example or like even before a couple of years (where albeit the situation had already gotten deranged it wasnt as stupid as it is nowadays though) 

Like what part from "the motherboard now costs more than the most expensive CPU it was created to operate with" you dont get?