AMD is in TROUBLE – Ryzen 7000 Full Review

[Tan3l6]

2 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Honestly, I don't think the 5800X3D is as good as everyone says it is.

It's for the gaming. Only. So, it's that, as you yourself conclude.

[Maxxtraxx]

Listening to Gamers Nexus Review right now at work. Already looked at Anandtech and Tomsharware and others. One thing that is more of a curiosity than anything else that I'm struggling to find any good info on is this information: Clock Speed vs Active core count (assuming high end cooling) On different work loads.

Everywhere i look i see 5.7GHz max frequency
5.85 GHz PBO
4.5Ghz base

But what are the clocks with differing active core count, at different loads in different applications?
is it 5.7GHz on only 2 cores? what frequency will it run with 4 cores utilized? 8 cores utilized? 12 cores utilized? 16 cores? what if it's less intensively utilized? This is the best i've found thus far.

[Ultraforce]

28 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

I beg to differ : even at launch prices, 7900X and especially 7950X will be quite a good choice for hi end and productivity builds, same as 5900X and 5950X were vs 10th, 11th and even 12th gen i7 and i9

Same or better performances, competitive prices, better efficiency, and lasting platform for an upgrade in 3 years are serious arguments

And idk what Intel will achieve with 13th gen on CBR23, but 7950X stock is around 40K to 30K on a 12900KS, that's quite a gap

 

But on the low end mid "gaming" range, current pricing of 7600X and 7700X make them totally uncompetitive with neither 12th gen nor even Zen3, so...

 

Yeah, from watching the Level1Techs related videos I think I'll probably want to go for my first custom build a 7900x or 7950x computer, though I do think I'll probably want to wait for B670 stuff to be shown off a bit since for the games I play I'm probably fine with temporarily reusing my 1070. Ideally I'd like USB4 but can live without it and I don't plan to overclock, I just really want the threads and general improvements since the 8700k.

[BabaGanuche]

58 minutes ago, Maxxtraxx said:

Listening to Gamers Nexus Review right now at work. Already looked at Anandtech and Tomsharware and others. One thing that is more of a curiosity than anything else that I'm struggling to find any good info on is this information: Clock Speed vs Active core count (assuming high end cooling) On different work loads.

Everywhere i look i see 5.7GHz max frequency
5.85 GHz PBO
4.5Ghz base

But what are the clocks with differing active core count, at different loads in different applications?
is it 5.7GHz on only 2 cores? what frequency will it run with 4 cores utilized? 8 cores utilized? 12 cores utilized? 16 cores? what if it's less intensively utilized? This is the best i've found thus far.

The impression I got from the reviews is it boosts to 95° on any reasonable setup. I do not there is any fixed behavior for cores vs frequency. I would really like to see more testing on this.

[papajo]

3 hours ago, tim0901 said:

IMO the fears of everyone back when AMD first made their announcements seem to have at least partly come true here. This release - while it does beat Intel's current offerings - doesn't look like it's going to fare well long-term. It really feels like a "get our product out first to get some sales before the competition arrives" kind of move. The margin by which Zen 5 beats Intel's offerings isn't exactly huge and all the rumors for 13th gen suggest it will likely bring Intel at the very least on par in terms of performance.

Not really (and I disliked how linus painted the picture there I mean its almost as he favors intel, which is understandable I mean canada has better bonds with USA than with China) 

I mean these scores are like the really stock ones and they compared them with the KS version which is basically a factory OCed 12900K that cant be OCed much more with conventional cooling, 

People have broken scores on cinebench with AIO cooled 7950x versus liuquid nitrogen cooled 12900K ones for example. 

Last but not least he mentions that the 5800x3D is still a beast in gaming but only in a bad shade to say that AMDs current offering are not that appealing because of that and then doesnt hesitate to say (while we clearly have been told by the CEO that 3D cache 7000 CPUs are coming early 2023) that when raptorlake comes out the margins will be worse for AMD ignoring that a 5000 series 3D cache CPU beats or is close to a 7000 series CPU in gaming (I mean imagine then how a 7000 series with 3D cache is going to do at gaming!!)  and surely if not at the same time with raptorlake then certainly a couple of months after raptorlake we will be seeing 3D cached 7000 series CPUs... 

Last but not least raptorlake is mainly a refresh with some extra e-cores so I wouldnt hold a big basket maybe the flagship KS model witll completely squeeze out every possible MHz out fo the box to keep competitive but that's it I dont see it beating a stock 3D chached 7000 series.

+ already people found ways to OC the 5800x3D and I am sure those methods will mature when the 7000 3D cache ones come out.  

[papajo]

1 hour ago, Maxxtraxx said:

Listening to Gamers Nexus Review right now at work. Already looked at Anandtech and Tomsharware and others. One thing that is more of a curiosity than anything else that I'm struggling to find any good info on is this information: Clock Speed vs Active core count (assuming high end cooling) On different work loads.

Everywhere i look i see 5.7GHz max frequency
5.85 GHz PBO
4.5Ghz base

But what are the clocks with differing active core count, at different loads in different applications?
is it 5.7GHz on only 2 cores? what frequency will it run with 4 cores utilized? 8 cores utilized? 12 cores utilized? 16 cores? what if it's less intensively utilized? This is the best i've found thus far.

My guess is that they behave much like the 5000 series but faster so e.g my (OCed) 5950x can do 4.9 to 5GHz on 1T-2T stable on conventional cooling(but also beefy I have a 420 AIO but I am pretty sure I could get the same results with a 240 or at least a 360 one, I got a good 420 one just to keep all core clocks high in my particular case 4750GHz for CCD1 and 4650 for CCD2)  at about 70 watts. (but has a baseclock of 3.4) so I bet the 7950x can do at least 5.7GHz (given that its baseclock is at 4.5GHz) and probably meet or surpass 6GHz 

As for 2 to 8T it can do 4.8GHz to 4.9 at least on CCD1 so yea I believe around 5.7GHz if not a little higher can be done with the 7000 ones too. 

The issue is that "vanilla" PBO bioses suck balls (at least as far as AM4 mobos are concerned but I doubt the am5 ones will be an exception) so you either need to pony up for a very expensive mobo e.g the asus dark one or rely on 3rd party OC software such as hydra. 

Actually I dont know of anything else so its not a variety its either the asus dark mobo (cause it lets you change multipliers  according to wattage consumption which allows you the better clocks, PBO on all the other boards will favor single core clocks but wont give you good all core clocks or the other way around)   and hydra is the only decent 3rd party oc software. 

So its either one or the other. 

*** Latest version of hydra doesnt support 7000 series but the dev said it will support them and it gets updated on a monthly basis so we will see. 

[starsmine]

So the only way to "overclock" zen 4 for normal users is undervolting/curve optimizing since PBO just SENDS IT on stock undervolt so it uses less watts, so it produces less heat, so it clocks up so it produces enough heat to thermal limit at 95.
Or you can change the thermal limit
Or you can limit the wattage, set it to 65w and still outperform 5950x

So I wonder if thats just how it will go for OEMs, they just set the TDP themselves.

[starsmine]

3 hours ago, Piecku said:

Is efficiency officially dead now?

[DoctorNick]

3 hours ago, ToboRobot said:

Given that AM5 is going to be around for a while that may change. 

Looking forward to see the X3D parts at CES.

Yeah I'm waiting for the new x3d parts too, not really surprising that 5800x3d is still at the top

[tim0901]

50 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

I beg to differ : even at launch prices, 7900X and especially 7950X will be quite a good choice for hi end and productivity builds, same as 5900X and 5950X were vs 10th, 11th and even 12th gen i7 and i9

 

Same or better performances, competitive prices, better efficiency,

... What "competitive prices" are you looking at here?

 

The 5950x is sitting at £750 vs the 12900K at £630 looking at retailers today, but it performs basically identically in most productivity benchmarks. Only in compression/decompression benchmarks is there a big difference in performance, most are a <5% win on one side or the other. Certainly not a difference that's worth £120.

 

It's even worse if you drop down to the 12900F, which is another ~£100 cheaper and yet also performs about the same (within ~5% of the K-SKU in most tests). Sure the 5950X looks okay on paper vs the 12900KS, but that's frankly a joke of a SKU that nobody in their right mind should buy unless they have money to burn. Unless you really want to play with overclocking just get the 12900F or if you want the iGPU, the 12900 for £15 more. And it's not like you would even want the added instability from overclocking on a productivity build anyway.

 

When compared against 10th and 11th gen sure the 5950X was a great buy, but it was made basically irrelevant by the arrival of the 12900F which provides almost identical performance for 2/3 the price. The 5900X is a similar price to the 12900F but, as expected, gets beaten handily by it in benchmarks. 

 

The 7950X coming in at the same price as its predecessor makes it competitive vs the 12900K for now yes, but chances are that'll last all of 3 weeks before 13th gen arrives. And that also doesn't take into account motherboard and RAM prices, which are much higher for Zen 4 than for 12th or 13th gen.

 

50 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

and lasting platform for an upgrade in 3 years are serious arguments

It's cheaper to buy a DDR4 B660 motherboard and put a 12900F in it than it is to put a 5950X in an existing AM4 motherboard. And you get almost identical performance out of it... What was the point of "investing into a platform" again? Cheaper upgrades?

 

Huh...

 

In all seriousness, I'm not saying this whole premise is a lie or a scam - it can definitely work - but by saying stuff like AM5 is a "lasting platform" you are buying into a promise that might not come true. You are in effect trying to future proof your motherboard and, as is always the case, future proofing is more guesswork than science. Those in-socket upgrades might never arrive (see sTRX4) and even if they do, who knows if the upgrade will actually make sense both in terms of performance and price - see the above example.

 

It also only matters if you're someone who actually does these upgrades. Statistically only a tiny fraction of people will ever actually perform this type of upgrade and so to everyone else this "lasting platform" is completely worthless. Most people just keep their PCs for longer than 2-3 years and by the time they need an upgrade the platforms have changed anyway.

 

50 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

And idk what Intel will achieve with 13th gen on CBR23, but 7950X stock is around 40K to 30K on a 12900KS, that's quite a gap

I'm seeing scores of ~38K for the 7950X from most outlets but whatever. Leaked results for the 13900K put it right in the same ballpark.

 

50 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

But on the low end mid "gaming" range, current pricing of 7600X and 7700X make them totally uncompetitive with neither 12th gen nor even Zen3, so...

I wouldn't even call that low end. The 7600X is mid-range for sure. The 12100 is low-end territory and AMD has just completely abandoned that market in recent years. The R3 4100 is frankly pathetic, being massively slower than the 12100 due to its use of Zen 2 cores, while being nearly 50% more expensive than the competition. It's completely DOA.

[Pitboy64]

Roman ... Der8auer ... just posted a video, where he both delidded and direct die attached a cooler to a 7900X.

... AND TEMPS DROPPED 20c ... averaging 71c in Cinebench, where prior it was near 90c

Obviously this is Roman, so he had to CNC his own bracket and backplate to compensate for the IHS thickness.
The interesting thing is the AMD IHS on this chip was over 1.5mm thick ... a massive thickness, and a decision AMD made to ensure the largest cooler compatibility.

Did AMD go too far and seriously boost temperatures for the benefit of customer cooler compatibility?

Heres the screenshot that matters - attribution Der8auer.

 

 

 

Link to his video
 

Discuss

 

[xg32]

56 minutes ago, DoctorNick said:

Yeah I'm waiting for the new x3d parts too, not really surprising that 5800x3d is still at the top

same, and the thermals arent as scary when it's just a target vs uncontrolled (i already run my chips at 90).

 

Imagine the amount of folks with ddr4 just getting a 5800x3d as a EOL upgrade though, that thing will last forever.

 

the title is right in that I have 0 interest in the 7xxx atm when compared to the 5800x3d, 13th gen or the upcoming x3d

[starsmine]

4 minutes ago, Pitboy64 said:

Roman ... Der8auer ... just posted a video, where he both delidded and direct die attached a cooler to a 7900X.

... AND TEMPS DROPPED 20c ... averaging 71c in Cinebench, where prior it was near 90c

Obviously this is Roman, so he had to CNC his own bracket and backplate to compensate for the IHS thickness.
The interesting thing is the AMD IHS on this chip was over 1.5mm thick ... a massive thickness, and a decision AMD made to ensure the largest cooler compatibility.

Did AMD go too far and seriously boost temperatures for the benefit of customer cooler compatibility?

Heres the screenshot that matters - attribution Der8auer.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Link to his video
 

Discuss

 

To far? nah. Temps dont really mater in terms of heat dumped into room. 

If the temps dropped it does mean its maxed out on a different metric like voltage though. 

[Ultraforce]

I don't know if the 3D V-cache stuff matters enough for me, I think a bigger thing is waiting for non-X motherboards since it seems like it would work great for multiple VMs and an iGPU means that I would be even able to just reuse my 1070 for a while.

[Pitboy64]

12 minutes ago, starsmine said:

To far? nah. Temps dont really mater in terms of heat dumped into room. 

If the temps dropped it does mean its maxed out on a different metric like voltage though. 

Watch the video, and back it up with Steves video; AMD decided that this time that voltages are king, and do not dial back by design.  What does react is the core clock ... directly due to temps.

They both mention that AMD says this chip will run to 115c, testing shows that if not cooled enough, clocks drop, not voltage ... and we are talking 170v.

and btw if voltages dont drop ... why would temps drop?  Answer ... better cooling.  Thats Romans point.

And no ... room temps in reasonable environs (given these are test benches) are not controlling performance ... not at 20c differences.  Room temps are responsible for ... maybe 2-3c if they are uncontrolled in a small room.  Future case temp tests will show a few more degrees obviously.

[pratnala]

2 hours ago, papajo said:

Not really (and I disliked how linus painted the picture there I mean its almost as he favors intel, which is understandable I mean canada has better bonds with USA than with China) 

I mean these scores are like the really stock ones and they compared them with the KS version which is basically a factory OCed 12900K that cant be OCed much more with conventional cooling, 

People have broken scores on cinebench with AIO cooled 7950x versus liuquid nitrogen cooled 12900K ones for example. 

Last but not least he mentions that the 5800x3D is still a beast in gaming but only in a bad shade to say that AMDs current offering are not that appealing because of that and then doesnt hesitate to say (while we clearly have been told by the CEO that 3D cache 7000 CPUs are coming early 2023) that when raptorlake comes out the margins will be worse for AMD ignoring that a 5000 series 3D cache CPU beats or is close to a 7000 series CPU in gaming (I mean imagine then how a 7000 series with 3D cache is going to do at gaming!!)  and surely if not at the same time with raptorlake then certainly a couple of months after raptorlake we will be seeing 3D cached 7000 series CPUs... 

Last but not least raptorlake is mainly a refresh with some extra e-cores so I wouldnt hold a big basket maybe the flagship KS model witll completely squeeze out every possible MHz out fo the box to keep competitive but that's it I dont see it beating a stock 3D chached 7000 series.

+ already people found ways to OC the 5800x3D and I am sure those methods will mature when the 7000 3D cache ones come out.  

AMD is not Chinese. AMD is American and Lisa Su is Taiwanese.

[geokilla]

 

Looks like the high temperatures are due to AMD keeping backwards compatibility with AM4 coolers. I think with its own proper AM5 IHS and cooler mounting mechanism, we can easily see a difference of 5C to 10C without resorting to delidding.

[Pitboy64]

7 minutes ago, geokilla said:

 

Looks like the high temperatures are due to AMD keeping backwards compatibility with AM4 coolers. I think with its own proper AM5 IHS and cooler mounting mechanism, we can easily see a difference of 5C to 10C without resorting to delidding.

It seems like AMD has made that choice, and they are not going to put out an AM5 IHS for this generation.
I really dont think they will want to have both AM4 and AM5 options out on the market in parallel ... the market confusion would be far worse than the intel's choice to run both DDR4 and DDR5 in one generation.  At least thats easy to explain to casual users/builders, where the AMD issue would be much more hidden and nuanced.
And ... even if 5-10 degrees is find-able with an AM5 solution ... thats still  leaving 10-15c on the table, more than delidding/direct die usually finds.

[Pitboy64]

3 hours ago, papajo said:

Not really (and I disliked how linus painted the picture there I mean its almost as he favors intel, which is understandable I mean canada has better bonds with USA than with China) 

I mean these scores are like the really stock ones and they compared them with the KS version which is basically a factory OCed 12900K that cant be OCed much more with conventional cooling, 

People have broken scores on cinebench with AIO cooled 7950x versus liuquid nitrogen cooled 12900K ones for example. 

Last but not least he mentions that the 5800x3D is still a beast in gaming but only in a bad shade to say that AMDs current offering are not that appealing because of that and then doesnt hesitate to say (while we clearly have been told by the CEO that 3D cache 7000 CPUs are coming early 2023) that when raptorlake comes out the margins will be worse for AMD ignoring that a 5000 series 3D cache CPU beats or is close to a 7000 series CPU in gaming (I mean imagine then how a 7000 series with 3D cache is going to do at gaming!!)  and surely if not at the same time with raptorlake then certainly a couple of months after raptorlake we will be seeing 3D cached 7000 series CPUs... 

Last but not least raptorlake is mainly a refresh with some extra e-cores so I wouldnt hold a big basket maybe the flagship KS model witll completely squeeze out every possible MHz out fo the box to keep competitive but that's it I dont see it beating a stock 3D chached 7000 series.

+ already people found ways to OC the 5800x3D and I am sure those methods will mature when the 7000 3D cache ones come out.  

.... and then Steve does a video where he says that the 7950X isnt a gamers CPU, but will probably be the goto for productivity, but is holding off on judgement on the rest of the 7000 series for gaming, depending on the value question.  Soo, basically saying that any opinion before testing and value consideration is inappropriate at worse and dreaming at best.

And no one ever accused Steve of being an intel fan boy.

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, tim0901 said:

Sure the 5950X looks okay on paper vs the 12900KS, but that's frankly a joke of a SKU that nobody in their right mind should buy unless they have money to burn.

This is my biggest problem with the LTT video.

The amount of times they compare AMD's 7000 series against the 12900KS was crazy. It felt like every other sentence was "compared to the 12900KS".

The 12900KS is a terrible buy and should quite frankly not even be included in anything other than a video titled "if you got more money than sense, here are benchmarks for you".

 

I found it downright hilarious that they for some reason showed the 7600X vs the 12900KS and then tried to argue the 7600X had great value.

 

I found Gamers Nexus video far more informative and sane when it came to comparisons. They were highlighting SKUs that actually matter for consumers when discussing value. For example the i3-12100F, the i5-12600K and the 5600X.

Seems like Gamers Nexus isn't afraid to say the more expensive CPUs are a waste of money for gamers as well, which is refreshing compared to some other tech-influencers who constantly tries to get people to buy more and higher priced gadgets, using affiliate links in sponsored videos, when in reality people don't need those things.

 

It is so refreshing to hear Steve say:

Quote

This is where you need to stop if you're thinking of upgrading and ask yourself this question. If you're still happy with your system right now as it is built today, you don't have any real reasons to complain, JUST KEEP USING IT. You don't need to just buy the newest thing because it's better, because that's always going to happen. We just like to drop in these reminds because people get really caught up in the hype.

 

[papajo]

47 minutes ago, Pitboy64 said:

and then Steve does a video where he says that the 7950X isnt a gamers CPU,

 

47 minutes ago, Pitboy64 said:

And no one ever accused Steve of being an intel fan boy.

Well I am not in the "accusation" game and I am pretty sure all the popular tech reviewers on youtube get flack but I will approach this not by telling that he also may be preoccupied but by using simple logic. 


Did he consider the 12900KS to be  a gamers CPU? 

Did he consider the 12700K to be a gamers CPU ? 


Well if the answer is YES then we have this 





The 7950x is both faster at gaming and cheaper than the 12900KS + it is a productivity monster which ok maybe doesnt mean much for gamers but if they like to stream or to watch (transcode/encode/decode)  movies there is an added value there as far as the non gaming performance advantage goes. 

The 7600x is faster/equal in the avg fps to the much more expensive 12900KS and faster overall to the equally priced 12700K 


So how can one say they are not a gamers CPU? 


I mean you cant walk on two boats or how the heck this phrase goes ... its either one or the other. 


Either 12700K and/or 12900KS are gamer CPUs and thus also 7000 are since they beat them both in price and performance in games or if 7000 series are not for gamers then 12700K and 12900KS are not for gamers either. 

Anyway anybody's preference is not my concern but I get itchy because most of the youtubers use such a particular language when reviewing AMD products it just grinds my gears   

[papajo]

1 hour ago, pratnala said:

AMD is not Chinese. AMD is American and Lisa Su is Taiwanese.

AMD is multinational in general, but it is essentially chinese (Taiwan and China -no matter if people here from any of those two get triggered- are basically the same, they just have political differences/history separating them its like Greeks and Cypriots or English and Irish etc) 

Most of their decision makers/high ranked people are Chinese/Asians and their processors are made in Taiwan and China (TSMC ) and they have more bonds towards china (e.g collaborations with Chinese manufacturers and other Chinese semiconductor firms) 

[Pitboy64]

20 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Seems like Gamers Nexus isn't afraid to say the more expensive CPUs are a waste of money for gamers as well, which is refreshing compared to some other tech-influencers who constantly tries to get people to buy more and higher priced gadgets, using affiliate links in sponsored videos, when in reality people don't need those things.

Sure we are used to Steve talking from the perspective of value, its what he does.

On the other side of the coin, we expect LTT to be less concerned about the value question, and be full on balls-to-the-wall performance based in their reviews ... its what they do, and always have.  The LTT approach is more 'excited - kid in candy store' than Steve will ever be comfortable being.  Its their shtick.  And no ... Linus 'isnt trying to get people' to buy anything.

That said, when questioned, LTT will then  back up and say "ok, from a pure value perspective ... this is not the solution you want", but I for one dont need him to make that qualification every single time he posts a video ... I already know.

If people dont have the internal crosschecks in place to stop themselves from buying tech they dont need, then that certainly isnt his problem.  Same goes for affiliate links.  It is tiring that people take apart and reinterpret product reviews and the purpose of advertising to satisfy their consumerism rhetoric.  Most people just. dont. buy. Problem solved.  And that includes buying into every, or even every other, or even every third ... generation of hardware.
 

[Pitboy64]

7 minutes ago, papajo said:

 

The 7600x is faster/equal in the avg fps to the much more expensive 12900KS and faster overall to the equally priced 12700K 


So how can one say they are not a gamers CPU? 


 

I never said that anyone said that the 7600X isnt a gamers CPU ...
I only said that Steve said that the 7950X isnt a gamers CPU, because rthe value proposition literally sucks ... but it will probably be the goto for productivity, but as of writing that, he hadnt yet put out the 7600X video ... which he now has and I have yet to watch.  So my comment was fair for that moment ... ie: holding off on judgement on the rest of the 7000 series for gaming, depending on the value question.
And thats the point here ... value.

[Ultraforce]

16 minutes ago, papajo said:

AMD is multinational in general, but it is essentially chinese (Taiwan and China -no matter if people here from any of those two get triggered- are basically the same, they just have political differences/history separating them its like Greeks and Cypriots or English and Irish etc) 

Most of their decision makers/high ranked people are Chinese/Asians and their processors are made in Taiwan and China (TSMC ) and they have more bonds towards china (e.g collaborations with Chinese manufacturers and other Chinese semiconductor firms) 

This is unrelated to tech news but saying english and the irish are the same is like saying that the French and the Sicilians are the same.