AMD is in TROUBLE – Ryzen 7000 Full Review

[papajo]

17 minutes ago, Pitboy64 said:

I only said that Steve said that the 7950X isnt a gamers CPU, because rthe value proposition literally sucks

It depends on how you define value. 

But AGAIN, if the value proposition sucks then he should say the same when 12900KS /12900K. 

You can either agree that both intel and amd offerings at this tier suck as far as value goes or that they dont suck you cant say that just amd 7950x sucks as far as value goes simply because it costs less (or about the same if you compare it to the 12900K) and performs better on most if not all tasks. 

[papajo]

5 minutes ago, Ultraforce said:

This is unrelated to tech news but saying english and the irish are the same is like saying that the French and the Sicilians are the same.

Its related to the post I quoted which claimed that AMD is not a chinese company and that only the ceo is from taiwan. 


As for the comparison I think you got it wrong Sicilians are Italians so obviously they are not the same as French lol 

[starsmine]

28 minutes ago, papajo said:

AMD is multinational in general, but it is essentially chinese (Taiwan and China -no matter if people here from any of those two get triggered- are basically the same, they just have political differences/history separating them its like Greeks and Cypriots or English and Irish etc) 

Most of their decision makers/high ranked people are Chinese/Asians and their processors are made in Taiwan and China (TSMC ) and they have more bonds towards china (e.g collaborations with Chinese manufacturers and other Chinese semiconductor firms) 

lol what
No one is triggered, that is just false.
They have always been an american company, and they are fabless since they spun off Gloflo so they have to use Gloflo or TSMC or whoever's fab. 

Like shit, AMD is more American then Intel at this point who have half their development team in Israel and a quarter in Ireland. AMD never was able to go multinational like intel has, they most they did was go international with Gloflo, which they dont own anymore.

Also, tangentially, Taiwan is not China.

[papajo]

10 minutes ago, starsmine said:

No one is triggered, that is just false.

If anything they are  "more the same" than my other examples (irish english etc) Taiwanese people are literally Chinese people that fled (by force) from mainland china because they were right wing people and the communist party won the civil war. 

 

  

10 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Also, tangentially, Taiwan is not China.

Depends on who you ask if you ask Chinese people (especially the government) they gonna tell you its china.

Anyway my point being is that saying AMD is not Chinese by bringing the argument that Lisa Su is from Taiwan makes no sense. 

And like racially they are the same and I am not saying that in the racist sense e.g "all asians look the same" but like they are from the same ethnicity/racial group, their language is the same and their written language is the same differences are in details e.g the Taiwanese use mainly traditional chinese but the Chinese in mainland china use modern chinese. 

[starsmine]

11 minutes ago, papajo said:

If anything they are  "more the same" than my other examples (irish english etc) Taiwanese people are literally Chinese people that fled (by force) from mainland china because they were right wing people and the communist party won the civil war. 

There are certain connotations when you call a product Chinese, be that privacy, quality, or culturally. To equivocate the two in ANY modern sense is ignorant to their differences today, and to their history. 

And the fact you also just rolled Asians into Chinese is even worse. 
Like oh wow, a bunch of engineers at AMD are Korean, Jappanese, Vietnamese, Philepino, etc. Somehow that makes a company Chinese?
 
Also, to be explicit about another claim you made, TSMC also doesnt have fabs in mainland china doing 5nm, they have one that is sandboxed away from the company that does 28nm, but NOTHING on the leading edge

[Mister Woof]

3 minutes ago, starsmine said:

There are certain connotations when you call a product Chinese, be that privacy, quality, or culturally. To equivocate the two in ANY modern sense is ignorant to their differences today, and to their history. 

And the fact you also just rolled Asians into Chinese is even worse. 
Like oh wow, a bunch of engineers at AMD are Korean, Jappanese, Vietnamese, Philepino, etc. Somehow that makes a company Chinese?
 
Also, to be explicit about another claim you made, TSMC also doesnt have fabs in mainland china doing 5nm, they have one that is sandboxed away from the company that does 28nm, but NOTHING on the leading edge

What does it even have to do with anything here? Lisa Su was born in Taiwan and immigrated to the USA when she was 3. She's an American businesswoman.

 

Even so, every American company has some kind of manufacturing ties to Asia, and specifically China. This is a global economy.

 

As an ethnic Chinese American, it is kind of offensive that one would lump all Asian looking folks together with some kind of loyalty to China. Like, wtf.

 

 

[Ultraforce]

12 minutes ago, papajo said:

If anything they are  "more the same" than my other examples (irish english etc) Taiwanese people are literally Chinese people that fled (by force) from mainland china because they were right wing people and the communist party won the civil war. 

That's simply not true 95% of the population of Taiwan is Han Chinese with 85% being from Hoklo and Hakka groups. With these cultures largely arriving in the 17th and 19th century. A minority are the waishengren which are the descendents of those who fled to Taiwan in 1949 at the end of the Chinese Civil War with 2% being the Taiwanese indigenous people. So no Taiwanese people aren't simply chinese people who fled when the communist party won the civil war. While most of the population is Han Chinese they are part of groups within China that moved there prior to WW2.

22 minutes ago, papajo said:

Its related to the post I quoted which claimed that AMD is not a chinese company and that only the ceo is from taiwan. 


As for the comparison I think you got it wrong Sicilians are Italians so obviously they are not the same as French lol 

Sicilians now a days are Italian but Italians aren't necessarily Sicilian. Puerto Ricans are Americans but Americans aren't necessarily Puerto Ricans. Both regions are somewhat autonomous from their parent country and both have their own unique culture seperate from the parent country. Difference between that and Taiwan/China is Taiwan and China are two seperate countries from a practical perspective. Also historically Sicilians were not considered Italians by those on the mainland. It's also worth remembering there was the Kingdom of two Sicilians and that Northern Italy which is where most of my family is from wasn't controlled by the same people as southern Italy and Sicily until 1860 so really not that long ago.

TLDR: I think it's better if you just drop this since nothing good will come from you trying to defend that statement of yours.

[papajo]

4 minutes ago, starsmine said:

There are certain connotations when you call a product Chinese, be that privacy, quality, or culturally. To equivocate the two in ANY modern sense is ignorant to their differences today, and to their history. 

And the fact you also just rolled Asians into Chinese is even worse. 
Like oh wow, a bunch of engineers at AMD are Korean, Jappanese, Vietnamese, Philepino, etc. Somehow that makes a company Chinese?
 
Also, to be explicit about another claim you made, TSMC also doesnt have fabs in mainland china doing 5nm, they have one that is sandboxed away from the company that does 28nm, but NOTHING on the leading edge

What are you talking about man ? 

https://www.fierceelectronics.com/electronics/amd-xilinx-deal-gets-conditional-approval-china#:~:text=AMD announced in October 2020,awaited news out of China.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/china-zen-x86-processor-dryhana,37417.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD–Chinese_joint_venture#:~:text=The AMD–Chinese joint venture,for the Chinese-based market.

+ their CPUs are assembled in china (and the die is made in taiwan) 

and in ANY sense they are the same you are being ignorant here their differences are reduced to recent political history nothing else. 

And I never said that all asians in general are chinese lol 

[Mister Woof]

But what point are you even getting at? That Linus is biased towards Intel because.....he's Canadian? Just doesn't seem relevant to the discussion and feels like you were baiting to get this discussion rolling off topic.

[papajo]

10 minutes ago, Ultraforce said:

Sicilians now a days are Italian but Italians aren't necessarily Sicilian

yea so what? And I am Greek from Kastoria not all greeks are from Kastoria and not all americans are from New York what is that supposed to mean? 

I think you are not understanding what the relation between Greeks and Cypriots is or Irish and English or Germans and Austrians etc 

The "same" here means strong bondage and same racial origin. 

E.g a Greek from a Cypriot may have some miniscule differences but its not like the differences between e.g a Greek and German or a Chinese person. 

To put it this way if a German guy goes to austria he will understand the people there he can read the signs he can have similar food and he probably has relatives there and also they share common history if a German goes to Greece he wouldnt understand anything the food would seem strange and he wouldnt have any common history. 

China and Taiwan essentially have the equivalent political issues with North and South Korea but the people themselves are the same and both have relatives in each other's country 

[papajo]

1 minute ago, Shimmy Gummi said:

But what point are you even getting at? That Linus is biased towards Intel because.....he's Canadian? Just doesn't seem relevant to the discussion and feels like you were baiting to get this discussion rolling off topic.

Well it was just a suggestion I mean I cant explain his bias other than this or that he gets more money from intel lol 

[Mister Woof]

2 minutes ago, papajo said:

Well it was just a suggestion I mean I cant explain his bias other than this or that he gets more money from intel lol 

How were you able to objectively determine this bias? His criticisms for AMD Zen4 are not unique...they are all over the internet.

[papajo]

Just now, Shimmy Gummi said:

How were you able to objectively determine this bias?

Already gave some points in the first tab and its not only that of course traditionally he paints the picture in favor of intel most of the time

[Mister Woof]

Just now, papajo said:

Already gave some points in the first tab and its not only that of course traditionally he paints the picture in favor of intel most of the time

But...Intel is better most of the time 

 

See just like that, an opinion was born

[papajo]

Just now, Shimmy Gummi said:

But...Intel is better most of the time 

 

See just like that, an opinion was born

It is not about who is better (which apparently AMD is for now) its how you talk when you review something about one company (the language you use and what you emphasize and what you ignore etc) 

Like even the title of the video is intel biased lol AMD just launched better CPUs kept the same prices (which are cheaper comparing tier to tier) has lower tier CPUs being better or equal to higher tier intel ones and also had a reduction in price in its flagship 7950x (compared to the launch price of 5950x)  

I mean what else would one expect as good news from a new architectural launch ? and yet the title is AMD is in trouble lol 

[Mister Woof]

4 minutes ago, papajo said:

It is not about who is better (which apparently AMD is for now) its how you talk when you review something about one company (the language you use and what you emphasize and what you ignore etc) 

Like even the title of the video is intel biased lol AMD just launched better CPUs kept the same prices (which are cheaper comparing tier to tier) has lower tier CPUs being better or equal to higher tier intel ones and also had a reduction in price in its flagship 7950x (compared to the launch price of 5950x)  

I mean what else would one expect as good news from a new architectural launch ? and yet the title is AMD is in trouble lol 

It's because Zen4 barely edges out the last gen Intel parts, the motherboards are extremely overpriced, and next gen Intel parts will be here in a few weeks.

 

But seriously, all titles are clickbait titles. If it was just a generic name it would be less interesting. You clicked on it, right?

[papajo]

Just now, Shimmy Gummi said:

It's because Zen4 barely edges out the last gen Intel parts

a) Its current gen and raptor lake will be a refresh.

b) barely? even in his benchmarks (which curiously are the lowest I have seen so far ) 7950x has a 100FPS difference in counter strike compared to the more expensive 12900KS  15 FPS difference in shadow of the tomb raider 100 FPS difference in overwatch and has like 10K points difference in cinebench r23 

c) Here is the bias again which you may also have or talked like that in porpuse to play the devil's advocate, you said "last gen"  implying that raptor lake will come out tomorrow or something, 

Did linus or you use the same language when alderlake came out? I mean they were compering them with 2+ year old CPUs (ryzen 5000) and zen 4 was in the corner 

Last but not least (since you probably either didnt read or willingly ignore it) I will repeat one of my points here he talked about how 5800x3D has great gaming perfomance but only to shadow zen 4 so only to use it as an example that this CPUs are not good enough cause of 5800x3D for gaming since they are barely faster or sometimes a little slower in terms of FPS. 

Yet he completely ignores to mention that the 7000 series will also have 3D variants in a few months from now but he remembered to say that (and have some sort of confidence about a CPU refresh that's not even shipped to reviewers let alone being in production) Raptorlake will probably close the gab and/or be better than the current zen4 SKUs in gaming while (given the peromance difference in games that 5800x3d has compared to 5800x or any other 5000 series including Intel's CPU) forgetting to mention that this probably will be countered by the 7000 3D cache series that will come out about the same time! 

[Mister Woof]

24 minutes ago, papajo said:

a) Its current gen and raptor lake will be a refresh.

b) barely? even in his benchmarks (which curiously are the lowest I have seen so far ) 7950x has a 100FPS difference in counter strike compared to the more expensive 12900KS  15 FPS difference in shadow of the tomb raider 100 FPS difference in overwatch and has like 10K points difference in cinebench r23 

c) Here is the bias again which you may also have or talked like that in porpuse to play the devil's advocate, you said "last gen"  implying that raptor lake will come out tomorrow or something, 

Did linus or you use the same language when alderlake came out? I mean they were compering them with 2+ year old CPUs (ryzen 5000) and zen 4 was in the corner 

Last but not least (since you probably either didnt read or willingly ignore it) I will repeat one of my points here he talked about how 5800x3D has great gaming perfomance but only to shadow zen 4 so only to use it as an example that this CPUs are not good enough cause of 5800x3D for gaming since they are barely faster or sometimes a little slower in terms of FPS. 

Yet he completely ignores to mention that the 7000 series will also have 3D variants in a few months from now but he remembered to say that (and have some sort of confidence about a CPU refresh that's not even shipped to reviewers let alone being in production) Raptorlake will probably close the gab and/or be better than the current zen4 SKUs in gaming while (given the peromance difference in games that 5800x3d has compared to 5800x or any other 5000 series including Intel's CPU) forgetting to mention that this probably will be countered by the 7000 3D cache series that will come out about the same time! 

A. And yet.....Zen4 IPC is about on par with 12th gen. It's a generational leap for itself, which is nice, but it only matches Intel's current offerings in single-thread. Raptor lake is a refresh. But in terms of language, it is Intel's "next gen" in terms of being 13th generation. 13 is next after 12.

 

 

B. Most of the reviews show Zen4 within a few percentage points of 12th gen in gaming. That's mostly what people care about. If the other metrics are important, go for it. CSGO is basically a synthetic benchmark because it's not meaningful at all. And even if you don't remove that as an outlier, the gains are marginal. In TPU's 720p synthetic test (which includes CSGO) , it is basically the same as the 12th gen parts.

 

 

In Tom's Hardware, the 7950x is 5% faster in 1080p games at stock, and dead even when PBO is on and 12th gen is overclocked.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-9-7950x-ryzen-5-7600x-cpu-review

 

C. Raptor lake is coming out within a month. But even if it never came out, 12th gen like-for-like parts are comparable in gaming within 5-10% on average with Zen4 in artificially controlled tests, and they're cheaper. The price argument being given on behalf of Intel is EXACTLY the same argument they were giving in favor of AMD during Zen 1/+/2....slightly slower but cheaper. It's a valid stance. Don't forget you can get a quality Z690 for $159 right now. Show me a compatible Zen4 board that's even close to that price.

 

3D parts launched in a few months will be great. At that time, with no other Intel CPU launches within 6 months, they will be correctly compared to 13th gen parts as well. 

 

You are sounding more biased than I am. And I'm a known Intel fanboy. Who also recommends AMD all the damn time here.

[CommanderAlex]

If only Zen 4 would hit 100^oC instead of 95^oC, we could call them Boilers. 

[Mister Woof]

Additionally, in the States, you can pay $625 for

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09NPJDPVG/

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09KKYS967

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09YTVCSB3

 

That is all three primary components of a Ryzen 5 7600x build and it will be outperformed in productivity, be matched in gaming, and cost less.

 

What's the cheapest X670? $300?

 

Box cooler even works on the 12700F.

 

So...the points being made about lackluster performance, despite generational gains....is valid in the face of existing parts prices.

[NF-A12x25]

9 hours ago, Gaires said:

Guess the AIO makers should add little tap somwhere on the loop so that gamers can boil water for their cup noodles while gaming.

only custom loop fiends are allowed to boil their water with their CPU smh

[tim0901]

1 hour ago, papajo said:

a) Its current gen and raptor lake will be a refresh.

you said "last gen"  implying that raptor lake will come out tomorrow or something,

Uh... that's because it kinda does. Intel's event is quite literally tomorrow morning - September 27th at 9AM PT.

 

Nobody - literally nobody - should buy a 7000 series CPU (or any CPU for that matter) before these CPUs arrive unless they absolutely have to. Instead they should wait for 13th gen to come out and make their minds up then. Comparisons between the 7000 series and 12th gen are basically pointless and are only done for this launch because 13th gen isn't here yet. And no, this isn't bias talking. I'd say the exact same - wait for 7000 series to launch - had Intel released their products first. People are saying the same about the RTX 4000 series as well - wait for AMD to announce their products before deciding.

 

1 hour ago, papajo said:

b) barely? even in his benchmarks (which curiously are the lowest I have seen so far ) 7950x has a 100FPS difference in counter strike compared to the more expensive 12900KS  15 FPS difference in shadow of the tomb raider 100 FPS difference in overwatch and has like 10K points difference in cinebench r23

Stop looking at raw FPS and look at percentile improvements. Variations in settings will result in different outlets getting different raw numbers, but the percentile differences will be about the same between them. (This is why LTT's fps numbers might look low - they just use higher settings. In Tomb Raider for example LTT used the highest preset, while GN used Medium.) Raw FPS also makes gains sound more impressive than they are - a 15fps in a game like Tomb Raider where you're getting 240+fps is a ~5% performance difference. That's bordering on margin of error for these sorts of tests. LTT did this in the review and it's pretty straightforward - even the 7950X is only 5% faster on average in gaming scenarios than the 12900K. That definitely classes as "barely".

 

Other outlets found similar results. You've seen the techpowerup results in the post above. GN didn't do a compilation, but just by looking at the values in their video it's clear that the margin between them is very small. Hardware Unboxed did their standard 12 game average and found the 7600X to perform ~2% below the 12900K (not the KS) on average, which is right in line with LTT's result above (2% vs 3% is definitely within statistical limits, especially given LTT's use of the KS)

 

Please just stop trying to make out that LTT are biased in some way against AMD - have you watched the Zen 4 announcement video from a few months ago where they praised AMD and hyped this launch to the extreme? Or any other Ryzen release where they've praised AMD a lot? Or perhaps their coverage of Intel's 10th or 11th gen releases, where they raked Intel through the sand? LTT is not remotely biased in this regard and will shit on and praise both companies in turn when they deserve it.

1 hour ago, papajo said:

Did linus or you use the same language when alderlake came out? I mean they were compering them with 2+ year old CPUs (ryzen 5000) and zen 4 was in the corner

Dude Alder Lake came out 11 months ago. Zen 3 was exactly a year old at that point in time and 11 months to the arrival of Zen 4 is hardly "around the corner". Waiting less than 24 hours is not the same as waiting 11 months.

 

1 hour ago, papajo said:

and have some sort of confidence about a CPU refresh that's not even shipped to reviewers let alone being in production) Yet he completely ignores to mention that the 7000 series will also have 3D variants in a few months from now

...what? Raptor lake is ready to go and will have been in production for months. Listings have been leaking online and pictures of retail boxes have been floating around in recent days. Reviewers will have their NDAs signed and review samples will be arriving within the next few days if they haven't already.

 

LTT didn't mention X3D in a few months time, because we don't actually know this is true. AMD hasn't announced the X3D variants yet. They might arrive in January, they might arrive in a year. We've only heard rumors, nothing official.

 

Meanwhile Raptor Lake is being announced tomorrow.

[Ultraforce]

50 minutes ago, NF-A12x25 said:

only custom loop fiends are allowed to boil their water with their CPU smh

Am I wrong or if you are willing to leave the maximum power at a table you should be able to run stuff like the 7950 safely?

[NF-A12x25]

4 minutes ago, Ultraforce said:

Am I wrong or if you are willing to leave the maximum power at a table you should be able to run stuff like the 7950 safely?

this is a bit difficult to parse, so idk what you mean, but you should be able to run these chips on high end tower coolers like the new Noctua 140mm cooler that is gonna be coming out soon or the Dark Rock Pro 4, or 240mm+ AIOs just fine.

[Rob_mc_1]

I would love to see a cpu chart with power levels at idle.