Are You For Or Against Guns?

[jezza39]

What determines one as mentally unstable? Who makes that call? When is that call made? Does a mentally unstable person not deserve the right to defend themselves?

 

Just because something could happen does not mean it will, or that we should regulate it further based on that chance. Let me try an analogy.

 

Should we regulate someone's (let's say they're mentally unstable as well) right to free speech (another right) because of the chance they might yell "Fire!" in an auditorium, possibly resulting in innocents' death by trampling? To the point where they forfeit that right entirely? Because of a possible outcome?

 

I say no. We just say "Don't falsely yell 'Fire!' in an auditorium." And we say "Don't let your muzzle cover anything you aren't willing to destroy." We already have laws covering negligent use of firearms.

 

Exactly! We should all have bombs and nukes too, there are laws for 'negligent' (not sure you understand the meaning of the word) uses, that'll work everything out! Who cares if we are suicidal and take down a few dozen innocent people?

 

You missed every point, I bet if you asked any person who lost a loved one to gun violence they would swap the jail sentence of the killer in exchange to see that loved one again. 

 

Giving everyone mass killing weapons and trusting them doesn't work. People can't be trusted, the minority ruin trust for the law abiding majority. But that's too bad, rather than crying over a document that the masses have taken far out of context, maybe it's time people woke up to the reality of the real world.

 

There ARE violent, sociopaths that wish to murder masses. We have to protect them.

[Real_PhillBert]

This quote pretty well sums up my thoughts on matters of this sort.

 

[cae]

Exactly! We should all have bombs and nukes too, there are laws for 'negligent' (not sure you understand the meaning of the word) uses, that'll work everything out! Who cares if we are suicidal and take down a few dozen innocent people?

 

You guys sure do love them red herrings.

 

You missed every point, I bet if you asked any person who lost a loved one to gun violence they would swap the jail sentence of the killer in exchange to see that loved one again. 

 

Oh I get the point, the problem is that it's based on an emotional appeal and not necessarily a logical one. I disagree with the point and believe I explained why.

 

Giving everyone mass killing weapons and trusting them doesn't work. People can't be trusted, the minority ruin trust for the law abiding majority. But that's too bad, rather than crying over a document that the masses have taken far out of context, maybe it's time people woke up to the reality of the real world.

 

Then what is government? They're the ones with all the "mass killing weapons" and the ones you're asking to save you. Why would you trust them?

 

There ARE violent, sociopaths that wish to murder masses. We have to protect them.

 

Indeed, there are violent sociopaths that wish to murder masses - most were elected to office. Who are you trying to protect? I see that regulation and/or confiscation would serve to protect the government from revolt more than it would the public from a violent minority.

[JustTooDank]

Exactly! We should all have bombs and nukes too, there are laws for 'negligent' (not sure you understand the meaning of the word) uses, that'll work everything out! Who cares if we are suicidal and take down a few dozen innocent people?

 

You missed every point, I bet if you asked any person who lost a loved one to gun violence they would swap the jail sentence of the killer in exchange to see that loved one again. 

 

Giving everyone mass killing weapons and trusting them doesn't work. People can't be trusted, the minority ruin trust for the law abiding majority. But that's too bad, rather than crying over a document that the masses have taken far out of context, maybe it's time people woke up to the reality of the real world.

 

There ARE violent, sociopaths that wish to murder masses. We have to protect them.

I thought I already addressed this nonsense.

The second amendment concerns ARMS, not WEAPONS.

What is arms?

Anything that a man wears for his defense, or takes in his hands, or uses in his anger, to cast at or strike at another. Co. Litt. 1616, 162a; State v. Buzzard, 4 Ark. 18. This term, as it Is used in the constitution, relative to the right of citizens to bear arms, refers to the arms of a militiaman or soldier, and the word is used in its military sense. The arms of the infantry soldier are the musket and bayonet; of cavalry and dragoons, the sabre, holster pistols, and carbine; of the artillery, the field-piece, siegegun, and mortar, with side arms. The term, in this connection, cannot be made to cover such weapons as dirks, daggers, slung-shots, sword- canes, brass knuckles, and bowieknives. These are not military arms. English v. State, 35 Tex. 476, 14 Am. Rep. 374; Hill v. State, 53 Ga. 472; Fife v. State, 31 Ark. 455, 25 Am. Rep. 556; Andrews v. State, 3 Heisk. (Tenn.) 170, 8 Am. Rep. 8; Aymette v. State, 2 Humph. (Tenn.) 154. Arms, or coat of arms, signifies insignia, i. e., ensigns of honor, such as were formerly assumed by soldiers of fortune, and painted on their shields to distinguish them; or nearly the same as armorial bearings, (q. v.)

Law Dictionary: What is ARMS? definition of ARMS (Black's Law Dictionary)

[jezza39]

You guys sure do love them red herrings.

 

 

Oh I get the point, the problem is that it's based on an emotional appeal and not necessarily a logical one. I disagree with the point and believe I explained why.

 

 

Then what is government? They're the ones with all the "mass killing weapons" and the ones you're asking to save you. Why would you trust them?

 

 

Indeed, there are violent sociopaths that wish to murder masses - most were elected to office. Who are you trying to protect? I see that regulation and/or confiscation would serve to protect the government from revolt more than it would the public from a violent minority.

1) No, I followed your logical reasoning, you said that people should have access to every weapon regarless of the danger it poses and those who misuse weapons can be punished later.

 

2)Exactly, because there ARE VICTIMS.

 

3) Yes I trust them, I VOTED FOR THEM, maybe if I lived in a dictatorship it would be fair to feel differently.

 

4) Yes, good luck revolting against steal jet fighters, 100 ton main battle tanks, specially trained soldiers, warshipts etc. That AR-15 you swear by as being important will be a big help. If you don't like America, leave. You can go anywhere.

[jezza39]

I thought I already addressed this nonsense.

The second amendment concerns ARMS, not WEAPONS.

What is arms?

 

 

*are

 

The point is this, there is a well kept militia for the defence of the colonies, it's called the army, the national guard and the marine corps. In 1778 or whenever, there was no well regulated US army. 

[Jedicake]

Please read this whole post by me before you make a judgement on me.

 

I think guns are stupid. I wish we could live in a utopia society where no guns are needed, and didn't even exist. I think the affection/craze for owning all sorts of guns is dumb. Having so much interest in a weapon that has caused the death of millions, if not billions, of people.

 

That being said, unfortunately, taking guns away from citizens who need it for protection against criminals won't do any good. So yes I support the 2nd amendment and owning a handgun for self defense.

[Guest]

Please read this whole post by me before you make a judgement on me.

 

I think guns are stupid. I wish we could live in a utopia society where no guns are needed, and didn't even exist. I think the affection/craze for owning all sorts of guns is dumb. Having so much interest in a weapon that has caused the death of millions, if not billions, of people.

 

That being said, unfortunately, taking guns away from citizens who need it for protection against criminals won't do any good. So yes I support the 2nd amendment and owning a handgun for self defense.

A person who appreciates that weapons are dangerous and are in an ideal society unnecessary while simultaneously appreciating the necessity of them in the realistic society in which we live.

[Jedicake]

A person who appreciates that weapons are dangerous and are in an ideal society unnecessary while simultaneously appreciating the necessity of them in the realistic society in which we live.

[JustTooDank]

*are

 

The point is this, there is a well kept militia for the defence of the colonies, it's called the army, the national guard and the marine corps. In 1778 or whenever, there was no well regulated US army.

Now you are arguing from ignorance. The militia and the military are separate, and for good reason. You simply don't know what you're talking about. Perhaps you should look up the definition of militia. It is specifically NOT the military.

[Guest]

Now you are arguing from ignorance. 

I guessed that back when he said " Yes I trust them, I VOTED FOR THEM, maybe if I lived in a dictatorship it would be fair to feel differently." about politicians and "Yes, good luck revolting against steal jet fighters, 100 ton main battle tanks, specially trained soldiers, warshipts etc. That AR-15 you swear by as being important will be a big help. If you don't like America, leave. You can go anywhere."

[JustTooDank]

I guessed that back when he said " Yes I trust them, I VOTED FOR THEM, maybe if I lived in a dictatorship it would be fair to feel differently." about politicians and "Yes, good luck revolting against steal jet fighters, 100 ton main battle tanks, specially trained soldiers, warshipts etc. That AR-15 you swear by as being important will be a big help. If you don't like America, leave. You can go anywhere."

It's one thing to have a differing opinion on the assumed actions of other humans, it's another to completely disregard the definition of a word to build your argument.

A large part of the pro-2A movement is military. IMO if a revolution were to happen, most of those jet fighter pilots and battle tank operators would side with the people, not the state. A US revolution would be warfare of the guerrilla variety, not traditional war. A politician won't order his tax farm to be bombed or shelled. It is their primary source of revenue. If they kill their taxpayers, they have nothing. They produce nothing of their own.

[cae]

1) No, I followed your logical reasoning, you said that people should have access to every weapon regarless of the danger it poses and those who misuse weapons can be punished later.

 

2)Exactly, because there ARE VICTIMS.

 

3) Yes I trust them, I VOTED FOR THEM, maybe if I lived in a dictatorship it would be fair to feel differently.

 

4) Yes, good luck revolting against steal jet fighters, 100 ton main battle tanks, specially trained soldiers, warshipts etc. That AR-15 you swear by as being important will be a big help. If you don't like America, leave. You can go anywhere.

 

1) No, I was talking about firearms as they pertain to the second amendment.

 

2) The presence of whom does not validate any claim to reduce their numbers.

 

3) Democide. Waiting until your freedoms are stripped before deciding whether or not they're important to you is idiotic.

 

4) Like firearms, just hunks of metal until a human gives them purpose. I quite like America; I'll be sticking around until the end.

 

Please read this whole post by me before you make a judgement on me.

 

I think guns are stupid. I wish we could live in a utopia society where no guns are needed, and didn't even exist. I think the affection/craze for owning all sorts of guns is dumb. Having so much interest in a weapon that has caused the death of millions, if not billions, of people.

 

That being said, unfortunately, taking guns away from citizens who need it for protection against criminals won't do any good. So yes I support the 2nd amendment and owning a handgun for self defense.

 

I don't agree with weapons being causes of death. That's more the human propensity for violence. Remove guns from the picture and we'd find another way to exploit F=ma. Remove the human propensity for violence and that distant utopia becomes a bit closer. But people want instant gratification, so the fingers are pointed. The second amendment isn't only about self defense, and if I want a rifle, I get a rifle. I'm with you on that utopian goal though, let's work toward it.

[Real_PhillBert]

I would like to weigh in with my thoughts. Generally I try to stay away from political topics on an international forum, I enjoy the discussion but have seen these go south and degrade into degradation and personal insults far too often. That said, I'm going to give this a go.

 

I do agree that in a perfect Utopian society guns would not be necessary. The very important word in that sentence is "necessary," even if there was absolutely no useful justification for firearms, I would still own guns. I enjoy them as a hobby, I target shoot with family often and even compete on a local level. 

 

However I also understand that we do not live in a Utopian society. Life here is not perfect, and there are people who have nefarious intent. I also recognize that ultimately I am responsible for my own safety and far, far more importantly, the safety of my family. I do not place the responsibility for my safety nor my families safety with anyone else. If the local police department or even good citizens are able and willing to help my family in a dangerous situation, their assistance is more than appreciated, but they are not responsible for my well being. I am.

 

For this reason I carry a firearm on myself pretty much every single day. I hope nothing more than to never have it leave my holster in public. That said, I do train with my firearms. I usually attend at least one, sometimes two, three day concealment shooting courses a year. I know first hand that the level of training I do annually far exceeds that of most police departments in the US. I have never hurt anyone in my life, and have zero intentions to do so, but I value the lives of my family are am ready and willing to protect them.

 

I have a couple different firearms that I carry in different weather conditions or how I am feeling that day. Most of the time I carry a Glock 19, other times a Sig P226. Some people have a bunch of different watches that they wear depending on the day and dress. I do the same thing for carry guns. Today I happen to be dressed a little nicer, so I am carrying a slightly nicer looking gun, a Beretta 92FS Inox.

 

(not a pic from today)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Derp ^^^^^^ toes lol.

 

I have competed IDPA in the past and do usually still compete IPSC a couple times a year just for giggles. They are both really good fun. These are sports that most "anti-gunners" like to ignore when they claim that guns are only usable to harm people. I usually compete with a slightly modified XDm 5.25 Stainless in 9mm. Sorry I dont have a pic of that one on my phone.

 

On another note, I agree with posters before saying that guns themselves are NOT designed to harm other people, they are designed to accurately and reliably release a projectile. There are however projectiles that are specifically designed to cause damage to living creatures, this is true. But the input of a human being is necessary for them to be dangerous in any way.

 

Now that I said all of this, I would like to say that I have always tried very hard throughout my life to allow other people to make their own minds on issues and to respect their positions on them. So if you disagree with everything I said and think I'm a quack, that's cool. If you agree, then I give you an internet high five. In fact I'll give you an internet high five even if you think I'm a quack.

[legodude]

if people really want to kill someone they will, guns, bats, clubs or even cars I like guns I say keep 'em

[DLM_012]

I would like to weigh in with my thoughts. Generally I try to stay away from political topics on an international forum, I enjoy the discussion but have seen these go south and degrade into degradation and personal insults far too often. That said, I'm going to give this a go.

 

I do agree that in a perfect Utopian society guns would not be necessary. The very important word in that sentence is "necessary," even if there was absolutely no useful justification for firearms, I would still own guns. I enjoy them as a hobby, I target shoot with family often and even compete on a local level. 

 

However I also understand that we do not live in a Utopian society. Life here is not perfect, and there are people who have nefarious intent. I also recognize that ultimately I am responsible for my own safety and far, far more importantly, the safety of my family. I do not place the responsibility for my safety nor my families safety with anyone else. If the local police department or even good citizens are able and willing to help my family in a dangerous situation, their assistance is more than appreciated, but they are not responsible for my well being. I am.

 

For this reason I carry a firearm on myself pretty much every single day. I hope nothing more than to never have it leave my holster in public. That said, I do train with my firearms. I usually attend at least one, sometimes two, three day concealment shooting courses a year. I know first hand that the level of training I do annually far exceeds that of most police departments in the US. I have never hurt anyone in my life, and have zero intentions to do so, but I value the lives of my family are am ready and willing to protect them.

 

I have a couple different firearms that I carry in different weather conditions or how I am feeling that day. Most of the time I carry a Glock 19, other times a Sig P226. Some people have a bunch of different watches that they wear depending on the day and dress. I do the same thing for carry guns. Today I happen to be dressed a little nicer, so I am carrying a slightly nicer looking gun, a Beretta 92FS Inox.

 

(not a pic from today)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Derp ^^^^^^ toes lol.

 

I have competed IDPA in the past and do usually still compete IPSC a couple times a year just for giggles. They are both really good fun. These are sports that most "anti-gunners" like to ignore when they claim that guns are only usable to harm people. I usually compete with a slightly modified XDm 5.25 Stainless in 9mm. Sorry I dont have a pic of that one on my phone.

 

On another note, I agree with posters before saying that guns themselves are NOT designed to harm other people, they are designed to accurately and reliably release a projectile. There are however projectiles that are specifically designed to cause damage to living creatures, this is true. But the input of a human being is necessary for them to be dangerous in any way.

 

Now that I said all of this, I would like to say that I have always tried very hard throughout my life to allow other people to make their own minds on issues and to respect their positions on them. So if you disagree with everything I said and think I'm a quack, that's cool. If you agree, then I give you an internet high five. In fact I'll give you an internet high five even if you think I'm a quack.

 

No nut hug but you're one of my favorite posters on this forum (srs). 

[Guest]

:wub:

It's... beautiful 

[Real_PhillBert]

No nut hug but you're one of my favorite posters on this forum (srs). 

 

Its because I ride a motorcycle isn't it?  

 

:wub:

It's... beautiful 

 

Thank you! It is certainly one of the, if not, the most beautiful gun I own. It was also surprisingly hard to get my hands on this guy. See Beretta does not make a whole lot of the 92FS's in Inox (Stainless) between their two factories. They build them in very small numbers in both the US and Italy, but the guns produced in the two locations are not exactly the same. The USA produced version has black plastic safety levers and a black plastic trigger, where the Italian model (which I hunted down) has stainless safety levers and trigger. It makes a huge difference in my book and well worth the work it took to find one.

 

Its also one of the few handguns I have that I wont put in a kydex holster like I do for most, I am too worried that it might mar up the finish. Leather and horsehide only for this one

[DLM_012]

Its because I ride a motorcycle isn't it?

And you own a firearm like myself

[ericlee30]

 

x2 (All I really want is something beautiful to say)

Keep me locked up in your broken mind
I keep searching, never been able to find a light behind your dead eyes
Not anything at all
You keep living in your own lie
Ever deceitful & ever unfaithful
Keep me guessing, keep me terrified
Take everything from my world

(Chorus)
I say can you help me right before the fall?
Take what you can and leave me to the wolves

Keep me dumb, keep me paralyzed
Why try swimming? I'm drowning in fable
You're not that saint that you externalize
You're not anything at all
It's all so playful when you demonize
To spit out the hateful, you're willing and able
You're words are weapons of the terrified
You're nothing in my world

(Chorus)
I say can you help me right before the fall?
Take what you can and leave me to the wolves

All I really want is something beautiful to say
Keep me guessing, keep me terrified
All I really want is something beautiful to say
You keep living in your own lie
All I really want is something beautiful to say
To never fade away, I wanna live forever
All I really want is something beautiful to say
To never fade away, I wanna live forever
You keep living in your own lie
Keep me guessing, keep me terrified
All I really want is something beautiful to say

(Chorus)
I say can you help me right before the fall?
Take what you can and leave me to the wolves

All I really want is something beautiful to say
Words are weapons of the terrified
All I really want is something beautiful to say
Keep me guessing, keep me terrified
(x2) All I really want is something beautiful to say
To never fade away, I wanna live forever

[cae]

Thank you! It is certainly one of the, if not, the most beautiful gun I own. It was also surprisingly hard to get my hands on this guy. See Beretta does not make a whole lot of the 92FS's in Inox (Stainless) between their two factories. They build them in very small numbers in both the US and Italy, but the guns produced in the two locations are not exactly the same. The USA produced version has black plastic safety levers and a black plastic trigger, where the Italian model (which I hunted down) has stainless safety levers and trigger. It makes a huge difference in my book and well worth the work it took to find one.

 

Its also one of the few handguns I have that I wont put in a kydex holster like I do for most, I am too worried that it might mar up the finish. Leather and horsehide only for this one

 

I have a love/hate relationship with Beretta. On one hand, it is truly a beautiful gun. It was the first gun I owned, given to me by my father. On the other, I figure he only gave it to me because I don't see how anyone can enjoy shooting the thing. It's a .40, so there's that, it's fat and heavy, and its trigger is pretty vague. I keep telling myself that I'd like the 92/M9 more, maybe someday..

 

[Real_PhillBert]

I have a love/hate relationship with Beretta. On one hand, it is truly a beautiful gun. It was the first gun I owned, given to me by my father. On the other, I figure he only gave it to me because I don't see how anyone can enjoy shooting the thing. It's a .40, so there's that, it's fat and heavy, and its trigger is pretty vague. I keep telling myself that I'd like the 92/M9 more, maybe someday.

I have never shot one of the 96's, but the trigger on the 92 is really nice. I do think that the Beretta's are a bit out dated, heavy, and fat, but I keep coming back to it because its so damn beautiful. I hope you don't get rid of your .40, some of the most fun times I have with my father are when we go out shooting. I sincerely hope you are having the same experience with your father.

[cae]

@Real_PhillBert I'd never get rid ot it. When we do go shooting it isn't long before I put the 96 down and ask for one of his Hi-Powers instead. But yeah, there's something oddly fun and tranquilizing about throwing lead at cardboard with dad.  :lol:

[ObeseWalrus]

Carrying in the public should be illegal but having a collection in your home should be fine.