A KDE Developers Response Videos To LTT's Linux Challenge

[Radium_Angel]

37 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

God damn it this topic made me itch for a distro hop again.... *sigh*

I've been pleased with Voyager Linux (debian based...)

[jagdtigger]

Just now, Radium_Angel said:

I've been pleased with Voyager Linux (debian based...)

Just jumped back to kubuntu....

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Well the challenge was actually specifically could a gamer make the switch, it wasn't actually supposed to look at a more average user. It's near as much worst case as you can get. As expected the issues got in the way of the production and some of the game stuff got push back a video and general applications brought forward so in that respect it makes the series appear a little different to the intended outset.

 

LTT is a PC gaming community foremost so is more topically relevant than can you switch if all you do is web browsing, would also make for a very short and boring series. "Episode 1: Yes it works" Run time ~5 Minutes.

It seems like a lot of viewers do not understand that it is a gaming focused, "worst case scenario for Linux" series though. 

I have had to argue with countless of people since the series came out that no, an average user who mainly use their computer for browsing will not run into the issues Linus have ran into. The average user will not have to go into the CLI. The average user will not have to set up a Windows VM. The average user does not run Maya 3D, or Photoshop. 

 

You even see it in this thread where people talk about the "average user" as if the average user is the average LTT viewer that primarily use their computer to play games, or does video editing.

 

Hell, just look at how many comments people have made about how Github is "confusing" and therefore Linux is bad. It doesn't even seem like a lot of LTT viewers understand that GitHub is not something Linux related, yet they shit on Linux because Linus doesn't understand how to use GitHub.

 

I think LTT missed highlighting that this is a gaming focused challenge. It doesn't help that they have renamed the series three times and only once said it is a "gaming challenge". 

First it was called the "switching to Linux challenge", then it was the "daily driver challenge", then it was the "linux gaming challenge" and the last episode doesn't even have a "challenge" part in the name, it's just "trying to do simple tasks in linux lol".

 

By the way, I think it's funny that Linus fails to understand things that aren't even Linux specific, like how he tried to cryptographically sign a PDF instead of adding his signature, or how he thought it was weird that his video file was lagging when it seemed like the issue was that he was streaming it from a slow USB drive while at the same time reading and writing data to it. It seems like he would have failed several of those tasks even if he had been using Windows.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

Dont think that many uses that with linux with their BS policy limiting anything that is not IE/edge/their app to 720p.....

1 hour ago, J-from-Nucleon said:

I suppose it's now a good thing that Edge is now on Linux? I'm not sure if it would work tho

Fun fact, the Netflix limit of 720p has nothing to do with some browser feature. For example Chrome fully supports all standards necessary to play 4K Netflix on Windows, yet it is limited to 720p.

For some reason, Netflix do not allow higher than 720p video playback on a non-OS-bundled browser. Are you on Windows and use Edge? Then it's considered a bundled browser and allowed to play 1080p.

Using Chrome on ChromeOS? That's also considered a bundled browser and as such, you get a pass.

 

Netflix will check your user-agent for which OS you use and which browser you use, and then build the playback profile based on that. With some JavaScript, you can force 1080p playback to be included in the regular playback profile, and if you do that, then 1080p works in for example Chrome on Windows or GNU/Linux. Same for Firefox.

 

So I don't think you will get 1080p playback on Linux even if you use Edge. At least not without the workaround I mentioned above (spoof user agent and inject the 1080 option into the regular profile).

You can read a bit more about it on this GitHub page:

https://github.com/truedread/netflix-1080p

[Kronoton]

I've used Linux since the early 90s, daily-drove it from ca. 95 to 06, so yeah as a "user" I had some experience.

Whenever I peek into it I realise it is as bad (maybe even worse) than before.

 

Only I'm 20 years older and just can't be bothered to deal with that pile of .....

 

Came across some Torvald speech on VT a few days ago where he suggested that Valve would "fix" Linux and it did sound plausible.

 

 

And then I realised that it was from a conference in 2014 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Fun fact, the Netflix limit of 720p has nothing to do with some browser feature. For example Chrome fully supports all standards necessary to play 4K Netflix on Windows, yet it is limited to 720p.

For some reason, Netflix do not allow higher than 720p video playback on a non-OS-bundled browser. Are you on Windows and use Edge? Then it's considered a bundled browser and allowed to play 1080p.

Using Chrome on ChromeOS? That's also considered a bundled browser and as such, you get a pass.

 

Netflix will check your user-agent for which OS you use and which browser you use, and then build the playback profile based on that. With some JavaScript, you can force 1080p playback to be included in the regular playback profile, and if you do that, then 1080p works in for example Chrome on Windows or GNU/Linux. Same for Firefox.

In browser still doesn't support multi-channel audio so I always use the Netflix App on my PC, but I guess using the App isn't an option on Linux though. Unless via Wine? Hmm

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, Uttamattamakin said:

LTT related because he's doing this on a Framework laptop.  Which also speaks to a point I have made many times Linus in particular has a computer that is 100% applied unobtainium.  HEDT Threadripper, 3090 GPU working with it over TB3 .  A more average computer would have a better experience due to fewer random errors.  This shows how.  

Nope, none of Linus's issues were due to any of his hardware. This is too often thrown out but no it's not an issue at all.

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, Kronoton said:

I've used Linux since the early 90s, daily-drove it from ca. 95 to 06, so yeah as a "user" I had some experience.

Whenever I peek into it I realise it is as bad (maybe even worse) than before.

 

Only I'm 20 years older and just can't be bothered to deal with that pile of .....

 

Came across some Torvald speech on VT a few days ago where he suggested that Valve would "fix" Linux and it did sound plausible.

 

 

And then I realised that it was from a conference in 2014 

Something doesn't add up... 

You're 20 years old and you've used Linux since the early 90s? We're you using it in your mom's womb? Were you daily driving it when you were 4?

 

Edit: apparently I can't read. 

[Arika]

Just now, LAwLz said:

Something doesn't add up... 

You're 20 years old and you've used Linux since the early 90s? We're you using it in your mom's womb? Were you daily driving it when you were 4?

Quote

Only I'm 20 years older and just can't be bothered to deal with that pile of .....

 

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Kronoton said:

I've used Linux since the early 90s, daily-drove it from ca. 95 to 06, so yeah as a "user" I had some experience.

Whenever I peek into it I realise it is as bad (maybe even worse) than before.

 

Only I'm 20 years older and just can't be bothered to deal with that pile of .....

 

Came across some Torvald speech on VT a few days ago where he suggested that Valve would "fix" Linux and it did sound plausible.

 

 

And then I realised that it was from a conference in 2014 

Similar boat here,  I used Linux as a daily for about 4 years before my boys started school.  At the time I did nothing but surf the web and the occasional email.  It was fine for that, but I was lucky in that it supported by hardware and I had no issues.

 

I have tried to install Linux on quite a few laptops and desktops over the years,  it is my go to for an old PC because I like to be honest and I don't want to pay for windows for an inconsequential machine.   My experience has been 50/50.  Many times I just get a black screen and boot loop, other times small things like the trackpad and wireless doesn't work.  the rest of the time it seems to work. 

 

 

[Forbidden Wafer]

49 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I have tried to install Linux on quite a few laptops [...]  My experience has been 50/50.  Many times I just get a black screen and boot loop, other times small things like the trackpad and wireless doesn't work.  the rest of the time it seems to work. 

My experience with linux on laptops: complete shit (DELL, Acer and Samsung). Have a weird display resolution and aspect ratio? Won't work correctly. Pen + touch? Never worked. Battery? Garbage. Temperatures? Meh. Prefer to use WSL when on the go.

[Curufinwe_wins]

12 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Dude, there are a lot of things wrong with this.

 

1. I think you have accidentally quoted future projected numbers and not today's numbers. For example the article predicts that in 2021 there will be 2.81 billion gamers. That "3 billion" number you quoted is projected for like 2023. 
2. The numbers are totally out of whack with everything else I have seen. I mean, do I really have to dispute the claim that 3 out of 4 Americans are "gamers"? If we remove people that are too old or too young to be classified as "gamers" (I don't think 3 year olds can be called gamers, and I doubt many 80 year olds are PC gamers either) then essentially every single person in the US is a gamer according to that link.
3. It entirely depends on what you classify as a "gamer". 
4. You can't look at revenue and extrapolate that as number of users. PC gamers are far more likely to spend more money on games than someone playing a free game on their phone. 

 

 

 

Remember 1.3 billion is the total amount of Windows 10 and Windows 11 PCs that exist. Not users, but PCs. 

According to Statista, the average UIS citizen has access to 2.12 computers. Let's say the average PC per user is 1.5 just to be on the safe side. That means there are a total of 800 million people using Windows 10 or 11 PCs. So 800 million is the maximum number of PC gamers that can exist assuming every single person who has access to a computer is also classified as a PC gamer.

 

The statistics are all over the place. That's why I posted numbers that are straight from the sources. Microsoft's official numbers for Windows users, and Adobe's official numbers for their users.

Sigh, I mean com'on you know me better than that.... I do question if the Windows number includes unlicensed copies, of which there are likely to be hundreds of millions to say the least in Asia and SA.

 

https://www.pcgamer.com/there-are-711-million-pc-gamers-in-the-world-today-says-intel/

 

Here straight from Intel, except it is 7 years old.

 

https://financesonline.com/number-of-gamers-worldwide/

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/314009-3-billion-people-worldwide-are-gamers-and-nearly-half-play-on-pcs

 

Also projects a bit under 1.5B world wide. Sources from that and the statia is NewZoo analysis apparently.

 

Look, if it's only 300M world wide only... that can still be niche, but it's not exactly trivially small either.

 

Of course, that does include extremely light games like League or CSGO or whatever, and issues with Linux as a proportion of the games people actually play is probably way way less than what most expect (get the top freemium games working and you have at least half the world pc gamers? Random guess)

 

League claims average monthly gamers is back over 100M this year. By itself.

 

Again, I don't actually think you are wrong on the overall conclusion. I just think the comparison to printers or the "tiny niche of gamers" is really off.

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Sigh, I mean com'on you know me better than that.... I do question if the Windows number includes unlicensed copies, of which there are likely to be hundreds of millions to say the least in Asia and SA.

Most likely. That 1.3 billion number I quoted also includes things like the Xbox consoles from what I remember.

 

3 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

https://www.pcgamer.com/there-are-711-million-pc-gamers-in-the-world-today-says-intel/

 

Here straight from Intel, except it is 7 years old.

Yes but that number most likely includes things like people who play minesweeper and farmville, not the type of "gamer" you typically think of that I wouldn't be OK with using Linux.

For comparison, there are 90 million Steam users (or, were in 2019), and I would assume that anyone who this forum counts as a "real gamer", will at least have a Steam profile they log into once a month at the very least. Although, that probably doesn't include China which is probably the majority of PC gamers (partially because of the console ban that was liften fairly recently). So again, it depends on what demographic we're talking about.

Do we classify my mom who used to play Farmville as a gamer? Do we only include the stereotypical "gamer bro" as a gamer? Do we include China? Do we not? Do we include office workers? Do we not?

The list of parameters are endless, but I'd say that overall, 90% of the world's population would be just fine with using an Ubuntu PC. They do not need Windows.

[Kisai]

On 12/7/2021 at 7:22 AM, 8tg said:

All this stuff is dumb and it’s a reason Linux will never be mainstream, it’s too segmented apart and everyone has different views on how it should work. 
 

This is always pointed out, and the linux zealots will just huff about it, not realizing they are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

 

As a "unix-like" system, Linux is a failure, but it's not a failure as a free OS.

FreeBSD is more Unix than Linux, and MacOS is Unix, and they do UNIX-things as much as possible. Linux does not, and Linux tends to have the "not invented here, not GPL, not welcome" mantra

 

On 12/7/2021 at 7:22 AM, 8tg said:

 

This whole Linux challenge they’re doing isn’t going to help Linux by showing weak points to developers, Linux developers have 2-3 brain cells to share between them, they’ll just argue that their system is better and you’re not using it right.

What it’s going to do is show off flaws in Linux to the general public and all the years and years of white lies on its ease of use go out the window.

 

/rant

 

Linux has never been about ease of use, it's been about having a "stable" thing that isn't going to suddenly be bought by a large company *cough*Oracle*cough*Cisco*cough* and then thrown away in favor of a proprietary thing to extract licensing from it.

 

Such is the risk of using Windows. But in the last decade, both Linux and FreeBSD have decided they would rather go full-steam-ahead into feature creep, and now it's essentially impossible to install any flavor of Linux that won't be broken in a few months. FreeBSD at least has "an OS" that won't suddenly be overwritten by the package manager. Linux though, no most Linux Distros other than Gentoo let binary package-installed software stomp all over the OS.

 

What would be the right way forward? Well for one thing, stop making an OS have 3000 dependencies to break. Define an OS program and library set, never upgrade those libraries if they depreciate functionality, and just stick to them forever until the next major version of the OS. If there are security flaws in the version, your OS has a responsibility to patch them even if the upstream vendor does not. That's why FreeBSD's ports, and Gentoo's ability to compile things has always been a superior, albeit incredibly slow and painful process, because stuff never gets broken if it can be compiled to the libraries already on the system. 

 

You know what keeps breaking OS's though? SSL. Every time there is a serious exploit in OpenSSL or SSH, an entire new OS version has to be put out, because the system libraries end up being too old to simply recompile OpenSSH, and the exploit is in the system library, but if you upgrade the system library, you break absolutely everything else. That's been the experience every time, on both Linux and FreeBSD so don't @ me. If an exploit is found in OpenSSL, you need to upgrade the entire OS at once, and that can be a headache. There's also libraries like LZMA and ZLIB that also impose the same problem.  And no, Windows, MacOS and iOS are not immune to it either. 

 

But ultimately the way dependencies are handled on all OS's are terrible. An end user should not be downloading bleeding-edge dependencies like Linux often requires you to do. One program, one download bundle. If that program comes with old libraries, THEN, ONLY THEN, check if those libraries can be upgraded, and don't replace them with newer versions if the software will break. Keep those libraries within the application's own directory. The problem is the licence's for GPL software absolutely makes this a huge pain in the ass, and that's why Linux becomes such a PITA. Yes, the source code should be available, but no end-user is ever going to use it. So just keep that in a tar.xz file and let the user eject the source code if they don't want it.

 

[Mihle]

On 12/9/2021 at 3:42 AM, D-reaper said:

If you need the Adobe crap (I'm calling it crap because of how a lot of these software companies handle things), and if you want to use Linux full time, you're going to have to set up GPU pass through (with a secondary GPU) on top of Linux. Then you can run Windows in a KVM on top of Linux at near bare metal performance. And like I said, the Windows mods from Team OS are great to use. Because it strips a lot of the garbage that you would find on the stock image.

 

Anyways, I'm leaving this dustpile of a forum. Hopefully you can make use of what I suggested.

If you use something regularly that requires you to set up a Windows VM to use on Linux, why not just use Windows? Then you only have the problems of one of them instead of having the issues of both. 

[Ultraforce]

On 12/7/2021 at 6:01 PM, D-reaper said:

It's like this; either you switch to open source software, you go the extra mile to get your current applications working, or you just stick with what you got presently. Nothing is perfect. You need to accept that. Windows, Mac or Linux, it matters not.

One thing that I don't know if it's mentioned in later pages is that more and more applications are web apps which allows them to more easily have at least some level of functionality even if the developer isn't focused on keeping it working. Such as Todoist

[Ultraforce]

On 12/9/2021 at 8:16 AM, Dean0919 said:

You misundestood my post accidentally (or deliberatelly to fit your narrative). I never said that that most people use Photoshop in their computers. Be more attentive. I said most users either browse Internet, either play video games or work in Adobe or video editing programs. It's mostly those 3 things people do. Out of from those 3, only web browsing is provided by Linux. Video games and working in graphics/video editing softwares is favored by Windows and Mac, so Linux is useless for those tasks.

 

Also average users at home don't have printers & I assure you more people play games in their computers at home than printing documents.

It would be pretty hard to do a good survey but I think it's probably actually a wash since I don't know about for you but outside of maybe 2 semesters during the pandemic there's never really been a time when I've gone more then 6 months without having to print something where the document was created at home. At least since I first was allowed to regularly use a Windows Laptop and Desktop in around 2009 or so. During that time flash games and Spore were I think the only PC games that weren't found in cereal boxes that I played at least till maybe 2012/2013 with League of Legends.

[mr moose]

On 12/10/2021 at 9:17 PM, Kisai said:

Linux has never been about ease of use, it's been about having a "stable" thing that isn't going to suddenly be bought by a large company *cough*Oracle*cough*Cisco*cough* and then thrown away in favor of a proprietary thing to extract licensing from it.

 

I don't understand this statement, it conflates two completely independent attributes.  One is about how easy it is to use, the other is about the company position on being sold.

 

The only way you could link these two is if you are claiming Linux is intentionally made to be problematic in order to make it unattractive to aggressive take overs. But this ignores the facts that are: A. it is under a license that makes it really hard to buy against the Linux foundations will.  B. Basically if they don't want to sell it, then it's not something oracle or cisco can buy and C. Linux is very stable in many applications, If cisco or oracle wanted to own it because it makes a great back end server or web server then they would have already tried.  

 

 

[Eaglerino]

ubuntu 5.13lbahwhtever-28 can't load the desktop because it forgot to include the drivers in the update or install lmfao

I've had some weird problems with Windows but I've never loaded it up and had the desktop missing, greeted only by the command prompt

Linux is an atrocious experience and that doesn't seem like it's ever going to change.

[Master Disaster]

On 12/10/2021 at 10:17 AM, Kisai said:

This is always pointed out, and the linux zealots will just huff about it, not realizing they are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

 

As a "unix-like" system, Linux is a failure, but it's not a failure as a free OS.

FreeBSD is more Unix than Linux, and MacOS is Unix, and they do UNIX-things as much as possible. Linux does not, and Linux tends to have the "not invented here, not GPL, not welcome" mantra

LOL, by "Unix Like" what you actually mean is Posix compliant and fun fact, Posix certification is not free which is why neither Linux nor FreeBSD are Posix certified. Both are (almost fully) Posix compliant and both are Unix like OSes whether you care to call them that or not. Both conform to the Posix FS structure/rules and both can pass the Posix compliance test.

 

As for "not invented here, not GPL, not welcome"..... Python, Ruby, Rust, I could go on and on with the list of software that Linux uses as a core part of functionality that are not GPL licensed.

On 12/10/2021 at 10:17 AM, Kisai said:

 

Linux has never been about ease of use, it's been about having a "stable" thing that isn't going to suddenly be bought by a large company *cough*Oracle*cough*Cisco*cough* and then thrown away in favor of a proprietary thing to extract licensing from it.

This is the most confused statement I've read in a long time. The 2 things are not even related to each other and why would any company want (or need) to buy Linux? You literally just mentioned GPL which allows literally anybody to use almost any part of Linux for entirely free.

On 12/10/2021 at 10:17 AM, Kisai said:

Such is the risk of using Windows. But in the last decade, both Linux and FreeBSD have decided they would rather go full-steam-ahead into feature creep, and now it's essentially impossible to install any flavor of Linux that won't be broken in a few months. FreeBSD at least has "an OS" that won't suddenly be overwritten by the package manager. Linux though, no most Linux Distros other than Gentoo let binary package-installed software stomp all over the OS.

This seems like PEBKAC to me, my personal Arch install (and base arch at that, not any of the "just works" arch distros) is coming up to 18 months old and the only time it has ever gone wrong was when I did something dumb.

On 12/10/2021 at 10:17 AM, Kisai said:

What would be the right way forward? Well for one thing, stop making an OS have 3000 dependencies to break. Define an OS program and library set, never upgrade those libraries if they depreciate functionality, and just stick to them forever until the next major version of the OS. If there are security flaws in the version, your OS has a responsibility to patch them even if the upstream vendor does not. That's why FreeBSD's ports, and Gentoo's ability to compile things has always been a superior, albeit incredibly slow and painful process, because stuff never gets broken if it can be compiled to the libraries already on the system. 

Linux doesn't have any dependencies, if it didn't come with everything it needed then it wouldn't work OOTB. Packages have dependencies, in your scenario how exactly would someone developing a package add functionality to the app that isn't a part of the core libraries?

 

Windows has DLLs, macOS has extensions, Linux has libraries. Sometimes people might need to do something with the computer that the OS cannot handle on its own, that's just a fact of computing.

On 12/10/2021 at 10:17 AM, Kisai said:

You know what keeps breaking OS's though? SSL. Every time there is a serious exploit in OpenSSL or SSH, an entire new OS version has to be put out, because the system libraries end up being too old to simply recompile OpenSSH, and the exploit is in the system library, but if you upgrade the system library, you break absolutely everything else. That's been the experience every time, on both Linux and FreeBSD so don't @ me. If an exploit is found in OpenSSL, you need to upgrade the entire OS at once, and that can be a headache. There's also libraries like LZMA and ZLIB that also impose the same problem.  And no, Windows, MacOS and iOS are not immune to it either. 

I'm sorry but what? That's not how libraries work. If a library gets patched then the patched version replaces the old one and everything works as it did minus the bug. Its not like they will be rewriting the entire library from the ground up every time a bug is found, all they do is fix the bug in the existing library, sometimes dependants might need a patch to allow them to use the new library but, and I'm sorry here, you're just making stuff up now.

 

In 2021 alone Open SSL had 11 commits to fix CVEs (source) and at no point in the last 12 months have I had to ever reinstall my entire OS just because OpenSSL was patched.

On 12/10/2021 at 10:17 AM, Kisai said:

 

But ultimately the way dependencies are handled on all OS's are terrible. An end user should not be downloading bleeding-edge dependencies like Linux often requires you to do. One program, one download bundle. If that program comes with old libraries, THEN, ONLY THEN, check if those libraries can be upgraded, and don't replace them with newer versions if the software will break. Keep those libraries within the application's own directory. The problem is the licence's for GPL software absolutely makes this a huge pain in the ass, and that's why Linux becomes such a PITA. Yes, the source code should be available, but no end-user is ever going to use it. So just keep that in a tar.xz file and let the user eject the source code if they don't want it.

 

Static libraries bring their own set of issues (especially if the user is left managing them and doesn't understand what they are doing), this is why dynamic libraries have been the standard since the mid 90s. That said, this is starting to change with the introduction of AppImages, Flatpaks & Snaps, these work exactly how you described with all the core files for the package in a self contained container, the difference is the OS is aware (ironically through a library) of where each app is installed and that these installs will contain static libraries that should be ignored unless specifically called for by something.

 

The issue is that the OS itself cannot possibly use static libraries since it has multiple different parts (init, kernel, tty, dwm etc etc) that all need to be able to talk to each other.

[Lightwreather]

So why exactly are we revisiting a month-old thread?

 

[jagdtigger]

4 hours ago, Eaglerino said:

ubuntu 5.13lbahwhtever-28 can't load the desktop because it forgot to include the drivers in the update or install lmfao

I've had some weird problems with Windows but I've never loaded it up and had the desktop missing, greeted only by the command prompt

Linux is an atrocious experience and that doesn't seem like it's ever going to change.

Im 99% sure the issue wasnt linux but you... (If this were an actual issue with ubuntu reddit vouldve blown up a long time ago.)

[Ultraforce]

2 hours ago, J-from-Nucleon said:

So why exactly are we revisiting a month-old thread?

 

sorry I don't know why but I was searching something and this was a topic that seemed interesting and didn't say go to some other discussion instead. I will say I definitely agree with a few of the people throughout the pages who mentioned it's unfortunate the conversation has been less about the video and more so just complaints about linux or windows.

 

I think it's interestin with this and a few of the other Linux user reaction videos to the series the mention of huh I didn't know about this since I don't really play video games. Also possibly slightly inspired by the series Linus has done it seems the channel is doing a one month daily driving GNOME for everything other then the developing KDE.

[Eaglerino]

8 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Im 99% sure the issue wasnt linux but you... (If this were an actual issue with ubuntu reddit vouldve blown up a long time ago.)

https://askubuntu.com/questions/1390561/monitor-issues-after-kernel-update-5-13-0-28

predictable response

 

actually let me clarify

first I don't use or care about reddit

second it works on older kernels but 2 reinstalls on the ..-28 version does not load into the GUI

third, I've never logged into Windows in 20 years of using Windows and had the desktop disappear

fourth, if this is the reliability I can expect from linux then why wouldn't I use windows? I don't want to use Arch

anyway I don't really care what caused it, that's my limit reached for this OS and I don't think I'm going to try again anytime soon

[jagdtigger]

22 minutes ago, Eaglerino said:

https://askubuntu.com/questions/1390561/monitor-issues-after-kernel-update-5-13-0-28

predictable response

 

actually let me clarify

first I don't use or care about reddit

second it works on older kernels but 2 reinstalls on the ..-28 version does not load into the GUI

third, I've never logged into Windows in 20 years of using Windows and had the desktop disappear

fourth, if this is the reliability I can expect from linux then why wouldn't I use windows? I don't want to use Arch

anyway I don't really care what caused it, that's my limit reached for this OS and I don't think I'm going to try again anytime soon

2 desktop, 3 laptop, several vm's amd a rpi3, guess how many of them had any issues, FYI all of them update automatically....