Is PROTON the key to future Mac Gaming?

[Video Beagle]

So, I'm wondering, as stated in the topic...is Proton and like the stuff Steam is developing for the Steamdeck (and beyond?) a potential key to future gaming on the mac?

 

Like, I really don't know about the ins and outs of all this, but aren't the Steamdecks ARM based? and Linux and the UNIX underpinnings of the Mac aren't too dissimilar.

 

I'm sure there's a developer squad in cupertino working on some kind of magic formula to open up gaming on the Mac...and Steam has always maintained it's precence there and wouldn't be adverse to throwing some of their couch money to work on opening up to more customers....

 

What do smarter people think?

[Alex Atkin UK]

Not unless Apple decides they are serious about the gaming market.

 

I asked the same question and was told Proton can't work on Mac at all because the Metal API is missing a lot of functions that are required for the Direct X translation.

 

Also as MacOS dropped 32bit support ages ago, Rosetta 2 also does not support 32bit x86, which wipes out a huge chunk of the library to begin with.  It doesn't even support all x86_64 instructions.

 

Also if Zen Pinball Party is anything to go by, the M1 GPU is REALLY weak when it comes to gaming.  It struggles to do 1080p 60fps when a GTX 1650 can do 4K 120fps in Pinball FX3.  The M1 is optimised for compute and video, I'm seeing it about four times faster than the 1650 im Topaz Video Enhance.

 

I'm actually kinda confused how it works tbh as the new Pro and Max still only have a 16-core Neural Engine, so does that mean their AI compute performance is no better?  Or does say Topaz software use the general GPU cores and so potentially could be four times faster?  Genuinely waiting on that to decide which Macbook I should be looking at.

[svmlegacy]

24 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

but aren't the Steamdecks ARM based?

No. It's an AMD Zen 2 SoC. Proton can't translate across architectures, either.

[duncannah]

Proton is just a more user-friendly version of Wine that's integrated into Steam... It's not much different. Wine also supports macOS, it has been since 2007, not something new

[Video Beagle]

21 minutes ago, svmlegacy said:

No. It's an AMD Zen 2 SoC. Proton can't translate across architectures, either.

Ah.. i misunderstood or mis-remembered.

[Video Beagle]

4 minutes ago, duncannah said:

Proton is just a more user-friendly version of Wine that's integrated into Steam... It's not much different. Wine also supports macOS, it has been since 2007, not something new

huh.. didn't know that! (I've tried WINE many times over the years...never been able to make it work myself, but have had "pre-pacakged" games that use it work well.

[Rauten]

I don't see it happening, unless Apple decide to make a serious push for gaming and basically build their own version.

 

Proton is basically Steam's gamble to break away from the partially-walled garden of Windows and into the fully open ecosystem of Linux (and therefore try not to depend on Microsoft and their whims so much); wouldn't make much sense from their point of view to exchange MS's half-way-walled garden for Apple's high security prison.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

1 hour ago, Video Beagle said:

aren't the Steamdecks ARM based? an

No…..

they run a amd zen2/rdna2 app, just like the consoles. You can even install windows on it.

 

[Video Beagle]

20 hours ago, Rauten said:

I don't see it happening, unless Apple decide to make a serious push for gaming and basically build their own version.

 

Proton is basically Steam's gamble to break away from the partially-walled garden of Windows and into the fully open ecosystem of Linux (and therefore try not to depend on Microsoft and their whims so much); wouldn't make much sense from their point of view to exchange MS's half-way-walled garden for Apple's high security prison.

unless I misunderstand, Proton isn't steam. it's a linux thing steam is using.

Steam isn't breaking away from Windows...it's expanding into Linux. Steam is alreay on Mac OS (which "high security prison"?  It's a unix based os..it's extreemly open....You do know the company has several products, right?)...and making it so more games can run on Macs means more money for steam.

[Rauten]

11 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

unless I misunderstand, Proton isn't steam. it's a linux thing steam is using.

Steam isn't breaking away from Windows...it's expanding into Linux. Steam is alreay on Mac OS (which "high security prison"?  It's a unix based os..it's extreemly open....You do know the company has several products, right?)...and making it so more games can run on Macs means more money for steam.

Yes, I'm fully aware Apple has multiple colours and shapes of chains available for consumers. It doesn't make their platform any less closed.

 

Also, proton isn't Steam, true. But it is Valve's project, and Valve have made it rather clear in the past that they want to make Linux gaming as big as possible. Proton is basically their "master stroke", their big push to remove the biggest obstacle, DirectX compatibility.
Really it's a 2-pronged pincer attack, Proton on the software side, Steam Deck on the hardware side. And it might just work.

[gudvinr]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:25 PM, duncannah said:

Proton is just a more user-friendly version of Wine that's integrated into Steam... It's not much different. Wine also supports macOS, it has been since 2007, not something new

It isn't version of Wine. Proton is something like wineprefix manager with additional compatibility tools for graphics and sound. Also it has libraries to interact with native Steam client.

It includes Wine but Proton itself isn't Wine.

[gudvinr]

3 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

Mac OS isn't closed.

It is. The only open-ish component of macOS is XNU kernel and Darwin (which only contains bare minimum for OS to function). It isn't even completely open because all drivers are closed-source.

Userspace components of macOS are closed too.

 

BTW, Apple uses same kernel for all of their OS. That includes iOS, tvOS, watchOS. So these are "open" in same way that macOS is "open". It being based on BSD (which is based on THE unix) doesn't make it more "open".

 

4 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

making it so more games can run on Macs means more money for steam

Only if they won't spend more money on making games compatible with Macs.

 

There is a major difference. They can use GNU/Linux for their own benefit by making whatever they want. You can't legally run macOS on SteamDeck.

Other than that, they can hire developers to improve GPU drivers, desktop environments, Wine. You can't do shit with macOS.

Even if that's not enough they can develop their own software (like steamcompmgr/gamescope) and easily ship it with SteamDeck.

[Obioban]

The Proton repo can already be compiled for mac, though it isn't meaningfully functional. 

 

I could see Proton happening down the road for Mac. The baseline GPU is going to be quite potent for anything M1+. The base M1 is more than powerful enough to handle 1080p AAA gaming, and it's the slowest/worst Apple silicon we'll ever see. 

 

IF they sell enough Apple Silicon powered Macs that it becomes a significant potential customer base for games (not crazy, lots of parents buying their kids M1 MacBook Airs), it would be silly not to bring Proton to Mac. There's no need to develop GPU drivers-- they already exist. Valve makes money off game sales on steam-- the steam deck is priced cheaply enough that they're likely making barely any/no money off hardware sales. If they could make more money by porting Proton to Mac, they'd be silly not to. 

 

Nor would it be out of the norm for them-- Steam for Mac already exists, just with a vastly smaller library of titles. Valve has also been working with others behind the scenes to get Vulcan support/translation on Apple Silicon, via MoltenVK-- which would actually be groundwork for Proton on MacOS.

[AlTech]

On 10/19/2021 at 12:25 PM, duncannah said:

Proton is just a more user-friendly version of Wine that's integrated into Steam... It's not much different. Wine also supports macOS, it has been since 2007, not something new

Wine on macOS also hasn't been well supported recently. For a while it was stuck on 32 Bit.

[Video Beagle]

5 hours ago, gudvinr said:

It is. The only open-ish component of macOS is XNU kernel and Darwin (which only contains bare minimum for OS to function). It isn't even completely open because all drivers are closed-source.

Userspace components of macOS are closed too.

oh.. you're defining open as "open source" rather than install whatever you want on it.

Not sure the relevance of the code source as opposed to what you can do on the machine, which is the topic of the thread, but fine, point for your side.

[whm1974]

48 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

oh.. you're defining open as "open source" rather than install whatever you want on it.

Not sure the relevance of the code source as opposed to what you can do on the machine, which is the topic of the thread, but fine, point for your side.

Open Source is defined by what you are allowed to do with the Code.

[gudvinr]

20 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

oh.. you're defining open as "open source" rather than install whatever you want on it.

Not sure the relevance of the code source as opposed to what you can do on the machine, which is the topic of the thread, but fine, point for your side.

You threw away main point of this but okay. Opensource-ness gives anyone ability to do whatever they need to do with whatever they want. Not only with those parts that Apple was kind enough to "open" for developers to use.

 

While you can "install whatever you want" it doesn't mean anything if installed software can use only so much. Making changes in OS components is sometimes necessary for games to operate or to tune performance or fix graphical artifacts.

If you see some game doing weird things on Linux you (not you personally but any person or company) could just send a patch and it will be fixed for everyone.

Or you can use source code to properly debug issue.

If there's some kind of bug with graphic drivers on macOS, you have zero options because there's nothing you can do about bugs in this OS.

 

If you want to add something into Vulkan, you (again, not you but any company) could just file a proposal and it can be approved because Khronos isn't tied to single vendor.

And Valve did this too.

 

Proton isn't only initiative Valve does in for gaming on Linux. They do many things in many places that aren't accessible in macOS for outside developers. Wine, MESA, graphic drivers, kernel optimizations. So here's your relevance to "what you can do on the machine".

[Paul Thexton]

I believe this is the best hope. 
 

MoltenVK

 

It’s basically a translation layer for Vulkan to Metal. I only saw this a few days ago so I don’t know if this is something that works at compile time or runtime. 

[Obioban]

20 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

I believe this is the best hope. 
 

MoltenVK

 

It’s basically a translation layer for Vulkan to Metal. I only saw this a few days ago so I don’t know if this is something that works at compile time or runtime. 

Also largely a Valve effort, which would make sense if they're thinking about Proton for Mac :P 

 

Compile time.

[Paul Thexton]

1 minute ago, Obioban said:

Also largely a Valve effort, which would make sense if they're thinking about Proton for Mac

 

Compile time.

Yep as far as I can make out it’s fully a Valve initiative but is open source so will take contributions that add value / fix bugs. 
 

On the face of it it looks like a great idea, I’ve not gone looking yet but I’m definitely going to go hunting for games that use it. I have a 2017 16” MacBook Pro with discrete gpu available to me, but also a 14” M1Max on order and I’m really curious about the potential performance of it. 
 

if it sucks then it’s no big deal to me as that’s not why I’ve bought it anyway, but if it’s good then it’s a nice bonus. 

[Paul Thexton]

Just now, Caroline said:

They said the same about Linux and here we are, can't even run Skyrim without having to become a programmer first.

sadly that’s been the case on Linux for a long time, although when I had a quick play with Steam on Linux last year I will say that the situation was a cosmic scale improvement on the early 2000s when I last regularly ran Linux as a workstation OS. 

[Paul Thexton]

Just now, Paul Thexton said:

sadly that’s been the case on Linux for a long time, although when I had a quick play with Steam on Linux last year I will say that the situation was a cosmic scale improvement on the early 2000s when I last regularly ran Linux as a workstation OS. 

Also, I did that by running Linux in a VMWare Fusion VM with egpu pass through, so I presume my experience would’ve been better again had I put bare metal Linux on my Intel NUC with the egpu. 
 

Damnit. Now I’m tempted to do exactly that on my next week off work (it’s not like I’m tempted to go anywhere given I live on plague island, aka the U.K)

[Paul Thexton]

I've just happened across this video as well showing games running on an M1 chip (apologies moderators if I'm not allowed to share youtube links to other channels! I'm new here)
 

 

[Paul Thexton]

 

[hishnash]

On 10/19/2021 at 11:49 PM, Alex Atkin UK said:

Also as MacOS dropped 32bit support ages ago, Rosetta 2 also does not support 32bit x86, which wipes out a huge chunk of the library to begin with.  It doesn't even support all x86_64 instructions.

 

Funny story, rosetta does support 32Bit x86 and macOS did not drop 32Bit x86 it dropped all 32bit system frameworks but you could still run 32bit code as long as you jump into 64bit mode to call system frameworks.  Crossover uses this trick to run 32Bit x86 windows games (with 32bit windows frameworks that jump to 64bit mode before calling the macOS versions of these apis) this lets crossover run 32bit windows games on ARM64 through rosetta. 


What is key to understand here is that the dropping of 32bit system frameworks means that the interface between the apps and the os is always in 64bit mode. x86 is strange! apps can switch between modes at runtime on a per thread level. All x86 systems include a load of legacy modes and rosetta2 support translating them all since its not that uncommon to find an app call into some deal legacy code that is in an old api. 

 

On 10/20/2021 at 1:09 AM, Rauten said:

wouldn't make much sense from their point of view to exchange MS's half-way-walled garden for Apple's high security prison.

So apple have been very clear they are not making macOS locked down. Infect they have been more clear than MS have been on this one. Things like you can alway fully turn of secure boot and modify anything you like with macOS this is easier to do on a mac than on a window11 OEM laptop for sure!

 

On 10/19/2021 at 11:49 PM, Alex Atkin UK said:

I asked the same question and was told Proton can't work on Mac at all because the Metal API is missing a lot of functions that are required for the Direct X translation.

You could map DX 1-11 without many issues to Metal api calls (you would need some shader shims, likely would want to write a compute kernel that handled dispatch of draw calls and memory ownership on the gpu side ... metal has some features that are very different to DX in this space that you could use). The OpenGL drivers on macOS seem to be largely implemented in this manor. 

It would however be a LOT of work, and onto of this its not just about mapping to Metal.

Metal is the shading api but you also need to consider the type of GPU your running on. All modern games are written assuming they are run-in on a  TBIR gpu. This dictates a given optimal render pipeline that they have choice. However apples GPUs are TBDR gpus so make good (or even a ok) usage of these GPUs you need to re-think your render pipelines, re-think what goes in what render pass, make use of features like tile-compute shaders and programming shading/depth testing to combine render passes.  For older high level apis (DX 1 to 9) this is likely easy to do at a driver level, But for DX10 and 11 this will be hard to do automatically and for DX12 it will be impossible to do automatically. Maybe you could have a way for the community to provide `plugins` that are hand crafted given games that patch deep into the game so as to let them make use of these apis in a better way but as a runtime drop in `dll` replacement for DX your not going to find it easy to twist the pipelines to make good use of a TBDR gpu. 

With a LOT of work, that would almost certainly need to consult with those within apple who understand the hardware tradeoffs of given choices, maybe something that is `ok` ish could be developed. 
 

Another option is when we see linux VK drivers that talk directly to the GPU since there are infect being developed on macOS (yes while running macOS you can issue raw instructions to the GPU) proton could opt to use these directly rather than map through Metal but that will depend on how good these drivers end up being.