Is PROTON the key to future Mac Gaming?

[mr moose]

On 11/6/2021 at 10:43 PM, RejZoR said:

 And I'm here sitting with an iPhone on which I don't use a single Apple service and can switch to Android this moment and take like an hour to migrate everything and set phone the way I want it without really affecting my experience.

 

 

 

And you are not listening to what they are saying,  I have about $70 worth of apps tied to my apple account, the only way I can use those apps is to buy another apple device,  this is the walled garden that people complain about (certainly not apple services which you can simply stop using and move to MS or Google),  most phone users buy apps for various things,  once you get to a certain level of investment it is too costly to change to the other platform and have to re-purchase all those apps again. 

 

 

On 11/9/2021 at 5:15 PM, Spindel said:

 

Gamers love to overestimate their importance in the PC market but the truth is most personal computer (both windows machines and macs) are used and sold as tools to companies.

I read an article written by Intel outlining their research into the value of gaming about a decade ago.    They estimated back then that it added somewhere between 1 to 2 Billion to their revenue.  Which then would have been close to 0.5% of their revenue.  So really the only thing it does for the industry is provide cream for a marketing department head.

[RejZoR]

17 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

And you are not listening to what they are saying,  I have about $70 worth of apps tied to my apple account, the only way I can use those apps is to buy another apple device,  this is the walled garden that people complain about (certainly not apple services which you can simply stop using and move to MS or Google),  most phone users buy apps for various things,  once you get to a certain level of investment it is too costly to change to the other platform and have to re-purchase all those apps again. 

 

 

I read an article written by Intel outlining their research into the value of gaming about a decade ago.    They estimated back then that it added somewhere between 1 to 2 Billion to their revenue.  Which then would have been close to 0.5% of their revenue.  So really the only thing it does for the industry is provide cream for a marketing department head.

Because stuff bought on GooglePlay totally isn't tied to GooglePlay either? Hm hm...

[Spindel]

14 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Because stuff bought on GooglePlay totally isn't tied to GooglePlay either? Hm hm...

Or the boxes with Windows games and software on my attic. They are totably usable on a Mac or Linux install. 

 

You are being locked in to an ”ecosystem” no matter what platform you chose. This is a strawman argument when used only against Apple products because it is all the same. 

[mr moose]

9 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Because stuff bought on GooglePlay totally isn't tied to GooglePlay either? Hm hm...

Of course that is true, and my argument against that is the same,  it's also the same about when you buy a game from bethseda on a console but they won't let you play it on a PC.      The reason apple cop more shit than google or MS is because neither google nor MS force you to only buy through their respective stores and neither force the developer to pay them a 30% cut on every transaction after the initial purchase.  

 

Trying to argue that others do it to or that a similar result occurs elsewhere does NOT make it right. Especially when the limitations are artificial.

 

 

 

[Paul Thexton]

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Especially when the limitations are artificial.

To a certain extent sure. If you buy a piece of software that's available on both Android and iPhone, or Windows and macOS, I would absolutely agree that you should be able to transfer your license for that software from one platform to another.

 

But if a piece of software is written for Windows, using Windows APIs, it kind of stands to reason that you can't (not easily, at least, Codeweavers / Wine can certainly help) take it with you to Linux.

[Paul Thexton]

20 minutes ago, mr moose said:

on every transaction after the initial purchase

Not that it matters to me at all, but what do Google charge for in-app purchases if done via Google Play? The only thing I've found from a quick google so far is this, which covers the initial purchase only.

 

Edit: I should have read that page more thoroughly myself, it does indeed quite clearly state

Quote

The transaction fee for all purchases in Google Play (apps and in-app purchases) is 30% of the price the customer pays.

 

[Video Beagle]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Especially when the limitations are artificial

So the reason you can't play an XBox game on a PlayStation is artificial?

It's artificial why I can't use Visio natively on my Mac?

 

I mean, I'm pretty sure things like "software differences" and "hardware differences" aren't "artificial".

 

As for your complaints if you buy an App on iOS and can't use that app on Android... that sounds like a problem between you and the developer, not Apple. Talk to them about universal licenses.

[mr moose]

25 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

So the reason you can't play an XBox game on a PlayStation is artificial?

It's artificial why I can't use Visio natively on my Mac?

 

I mean, I'm pretty sure things like "software differences" and "hardware differences" aren't "artificial".

 

There are literally hundreds of games you can buy for either the xbox or the PS,  They have been ported and work on both, why should I have to buy a game twice to play it on a different system?  I would expect to pay for a dvd/bluray plus logistics if that was necessary, but when everything is a digital download I shouldn't have to buy it twice when I upgrade my console.  There are multitudes of software companies that allow you to download either the mac or the windows version of their software once you have purchased it.  You can swap between the two indefinitely.  So yes, the limitation is artificial.  

 

25 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

As for your complaints if you buy an App on iOS and can't use that app on Android... that sounds like a problem between you and the developer, not Apple. Talk to them about universal licenses.

And apple have developers hands tied to payments and apps through the app store.   I would love to see developers able to offer their software directly from their own servers (like you do for every other device on the fucking planet) where you buy the software then download the appropriate version for your device,  but apple won't let them.  

 

I am not about to blame developers for issues they cannot change,  when apple opens up the system and developers do that then I will.  Until then the guilty party gets the criticism.

 

 

 

 

[Video Beagle]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

They have been ported and work on both, why should I have to buy a game twice to play it on a different system?

I'm not sure you understand that there is A an actual difference between a Windows version of a program and a Mac version or a Playstation Game or an X-Box Game...or even a 720p video and a 4k video...but I've been in many threads with you so I'll assume you just feel that implementation of content is not important and only the content itself matters. That's a Copyright/license topic...which is NOT what this thread is about.

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

There are multitudes of software companies that allow you to download either the mac or the windows version of their software once you have purchased it.  You can swap between the two indefinitely.  So yes, the limitation is artificial.  

 

 

So you can often use programs that you've bought that have both Windows and Mac versions ON THE MAC,  which is the ONLY OS this thread is about.

 

Quote

There are multitudes of software companies that allow you to....

You acknowledge this is about the developer, or the IP holder (as you brought in DVD/Blu Ray)...not the platform maker......unless it's Apple. Regardless, that complaint is about iOS, not MacOS, which, again, is what this thread is about.

 

AS I mentioned upthread, there are many places to complain about Apple... you know this Mr Moose as you show up in all of them. THIS THREAD is about, in general, gaming on the M1 Macs, and specifically if something like PROTON, which Steam is pushing to let them get linux user money, might also be a way for them to get mac user money.

 

 

 

 

[mr moose]

58 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

I'm not sure you understand that there is A an actual difference between a Windows version of a program and a Mac version or a Playstation Game or an X-Box Game...or even a 720p video and a 4k video...but I've been in many threads with you so I'll assume you just feel that implementation of content is not important and only the content itself matters. That's a Copyright/license topic...which is NOT what this thread is about.

I understand perfectly.  There are different versions of the same software for each product type (console, ios, android, windows, etc).    That doesn't mean you should have to pay again.  My son uses FL studio, he purchased the software and now he can download either mac or windows versions. If he wants to buy a mac and stop using windows he does not have to purchase that software again.  It's the same with a lot of software.  The only place where this doesn't happen is in markets where you are limited to the products store only.  I.E appstore for ios, google play for android and consoles.   The fact of the matter is that I was highlighting an error in someones post regarding not being locked to apple because android exists.  The discussion went there long before I came along.  

 

58 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

 

So you can often use programs that you've bought that have both Windows and Mac versions ON THE MAC,  which is the ONLY OS this thread is about.

They should all be like that,  The main reason they are not right now is because apple won't let developers do it.

58 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

You acknowledge this is about the developer, or the IP holder (as you brought in DVD/Blu Ray)...not the platform maker......unless it's Apple. Regardless, that complaint is about iOS, not MacOS, which, again, is what this thread is about.

You are intentionally ignoring the problem.  Until developers are allowed to sell their software on ios/android the same way they can for windows/mac then you can;'t blame them for it. As of right now the cause of these issues is apple tying the developers hands.  If or when apple change their tune and allow developers to sell directly to consumers AND they don't change instead electing to continue charging for each version of the same software, then I will have a go at developers and accuse them of being greedy.

 

 

58 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

AS I mentioned upthread, there are many places to complain about Apple... you know this Mr Moose as you show up in all of them. THIS THREAD is about, in general, gaming on the M1 Macs, and specifically if something like PROTON, which Steam is pushing to let them get linux user money, might also be a way for them to get mac user money.

 

 

 

 

 

So instead of trying to convince me I don't know what I am talking about then telling me that's not what the discussion is about, just let it go or ask nicely to those who started talking about ios to stop.  I certainly didn't derail this thread, I simply corrected a poor understanding of why many people have issues with iphone and walled gardens. 

 

 

[RejZoR]

10 hours ago, mr moose said:

Of course that is true, and my argument against that is the same,  it's also the same about when you buy a game from bethseda on a console but they won't let you play it on a PC.      The reason apple cop more shit than google or MS is because neither google nor MS force you to only buy through their respective stores and neither force the developer to pay them a 30% cut on every transaction after the initial purchase.  

 

Trying to argue that others do it to or that a similar result occurs elsewhere does NOT make it right. Especially when the limitations are artificial.

 

 

 

Except they do. GooglePlay has the same fees. They just care less if those few 100 people buy it elsewhere because primarily, Google feeds off your habits. Whatever they earn on the side is pure bonus for them.

 

I subbed to Netflix years ago. No issues with that on iPhone. I also use CuriosityStream which is sort of Netflix for nerds. Subbed to it elsewhere and behold, I just logged into it on iPhone. No Apple involved. It gets even more funny where app of our national lottery has to be sideloaded from their webpage on Android, where on iPhone, it's there as an official app on the App Store. All purchases in it go through national lottery and not Apple.

 

Reason why Microsoft can't enforce their store is because it's pure garbage. It's filled with absolute junk and sad copies and uploads of 3rd party apps and its management is so bad I wouldn't want to use it and I don't use it. It's been this bad basically ever since I can remember, that being since Windows 8 how many years ago? I only use it for MusicBee and Paint.NET, in first case because it auto updates the music player and second case because I supported the dev of Paint.NET and he only has a paid for version on Microsoft Store.

 

People mostly exaggerate "bad" experience with iPhones and mostly by people who don't even use it...

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Except they do. GooglePlay has the same fees. They just care less if those few 100 people buy it elsewhere because primarily, Google feeds off your habits. Whatever they earn on the side is pure bonus for them.

That doesn't even make sense, it has nothing to do with what I said.

 

3 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

I subbed to Netflix years ago. No issues with that on iPhone. I also use CuriosityStream which is sort of Netflix for nerds. Subbed to it elsewhere and behold, I just logged into it on iPhone. No Apple involved. It gets even more funny where app of our national lottery has to be sideloaded from their webpage on Android, where on iPhone, it's there as an official app on the App Store. All purchases in it go through national lottery and not Apple.

what has netflix got to do with in app purchases?    You seem to think that pointing to a handful of exceptions (like streaming services) that it applies across the board. It doesn't, that is why the whole epic lawsuit thing happened.  That is why many developers are constantly taking apple to court for their monopoly in the app store. 

 

3 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Reason why Microsoft cian't enforce their store is because it's pure garbage. It's filled with absolute junk and sad copies and uploads of 3rd party apps and its management is so bad I wouldn't want to use it and I don't use it. It's been this bad basically ever since I can remember, that being since Windows 8 how many years ago? I only use it for MusicBee and Paint.NET, in first case because it auto updates the music player and second case because I supported the dev of Paint.NET and he only has a paid for version on Microsoft Store.

Again, not relevant to what I said.   Though your reasoning for MS not enforcing their store is ludicrous, they don't do it because it's anti trust and despite what you might think they aren't interested in pissing everyone off, hence why win S is upgradeable. 

 

3 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

People mostly exaggerate "bad" experience with iPhones and mostly by people who don't even use it...

 

So?  I am talking about actual things that are happening not exaggerated consumer experience. 

[RejZoR]

Dude, whatever. I'm not going to argue with you where you say they don't have the same fees and when I say they do, you deny it with "doesn't have anything to do with it". Except it has everything to do with it. It's like arguing with a child.

 

And when I give you few examples you call them irrelevant. What the f**k do you even want? Jesus.

 

Reason why Epic thing happened is because Epic is almost more greedy than Apple and wants all the profits for themselves, yet they want the luxury of access and promotion via App Store. They literally want to have the cake, eat it too and all for free. Not because they are some saviors and defenders of consumers.

 

And ultimately, if you don't like iOS or Apple, then buy Windows and Android. If everyone hated it so much and everyone did that, then there would be incentive for Apple to change business. Clearly they see no need for it and one can't blame them for enforcing things on their devices and their ecosystem. But muh walled garden. Stop whining and just buy Android phone then. I went the other direction because whole Android thing is garbage. Their ecosystem is garbage, their support is garbage, their phones are mostly garbage, almost everything about Android is garbage except shit people can't shut up about it, like sideloading and buying of shit elsewhere. Like it's the most important thing in the world.

[mr moose]

On 11/12/2021 at 7:05 PM, RejZoR said:

Dude, whatever. I'm not going to argue with you where you say they don't have the same fees and when I say they do, you deny it with "doesn't have anything to do with it". Except it has everything to do with it. It's like arguing with a child.

 

And when I give you few examples you call them irrelevant. What the f**k do you even want? Jesus.

 

Reason why Epic thing happened is because Epic is almost more greedy than Apple and wants all the profits for themselves, yet they want the luxury of access and promotion via App Store. They literally want to have the cake, eat it too and all for free. Not because they are some saviors and defenders of consumers.

 

Problem is, if you are going to make claims about the relevance of peoples complaints then you need to address what they are complaining about, you can't just search out the odd outliers that aren't relevant to their complaints and carry on like they are being silly.    As pointed out there are very relevant grievances people have with the app store and the app stores charging policy.     Pretending the problem with epic is greed while defending apples highly anti competitive fee policy makes for an argument so lacking in foundation there isn't even a rebuttal for it. 

On 11/12/2021 at 7:05 PM, RejZoR said:

And ultimately, if you don't like iOS or Apple, then buy Windows and Android. If everyone hated it so much and everyone did that, then there would be incentive for Apple to change business. Clearly they see no need for it and one can't blame them for enforcing things on their devices and their ecosystem. But muh walled garden. Stop whining and just buy Android phone then. I went the other direction because whole Android thing is garbage. Their ecosystem is garbage, their support is garbage, their phones are mostly garbage, almost everything about Android is garbage except shit people can't shut up about it, like sideloading and buying of shit elsewhere. Like it's the most important thing in the world.

 

If you had any comprehension of the issues people have been telling you you would understand why this is not an argument.  The existence of android does not make apples shitty consumer attitude any better or defensible.  

 

 

 

 

[RejZoR]

Yeah, Netflix is totally an outlier given it's most popular, most widely used app. I also gave CuriosityStream because it's probably the most niche example. Not that you care about any of that...

[mr moose]

Just now, RejZoR said:

Yeah, Netflix is totally an outlier given it's most popular, most widely used app. I also gave CuriosityStream because it's probably the most niche example. Not that you care about any of that...

I've already explained that that is because it's a streaming service and only one example.   You do realize that there are many many more in app purchases that you have to make through the app store?  I guess not, you'd rather pretend netflix and curiosity are the only apps in the app store.

 

 

[RejZoR]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I've already explained that that is because it's a streaming service and only one example.   You do realize that there are many many more in app purchases that you have to make through the app store?  I guess not, you'd rather pretend netflix and curiosity are the only apps in the app store.

 

 

You should really pick up a dictionary and look up word "example". Coz you don't seem to understand what it means...

[mr moose]

Just now, RejZoR said:

You should really pick up a dictionary and look up word "example". Coz you don't seem to understand what it means...

Your "example" is an outlier and not what people are complaining about.    People are complaining about compulsory 30% fee for in app purchases in games, developers are complaining about compulsory 30% fee for in app purchases mostly in games, neither of them are complaining about streaming services (except where they point out that it is discriminatory).   

 

Again, if you want to tell everyone that the complainers are ignorant or silly or naive or whatever argument you want, then you need to demonstrate that their complaints are unfounded, not find a service that is irrelevant to their complaints.    

[RejZoR]

Um, ok, whatever.

[Video Beagle]

11 hours ago, thunar said:

dxvk

???

[Spindel]

14 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

???

Vulkan translation of direct x

[whm1974]

Is Proton even available/supported on MacOS? This is a silly question to even ask.

[Paul Thexton]

5 hours ago, whm1974 said:

Is Proton even available/supported on MacOS? This is a silly question to even ask.

It’s a (presumably optimised) version of Wine with a translation layer to convert DirectX to Vulkan

 

Crossover does basically the same thing, but uses MoltenVK to additionally convert Vulkan to Metal. 
 

With that in mind, it’s actually not such a silly question. 

[CielRuby]

No, I think .NET is, it supports android, ios, mac, tizen and even IBM AIX on ppc64le now, although unrelated.

The only thing it doesn't support is other linux/unix distro's