Is PROTON the key to future Mac Gaming?

[hishnash]

On 10/19/2021 at 11:49 PM, Alex Atkin UK said:

I'm actually kinda confused how it works tbh as the new Pro and Max still only have a 16-core Neural Engine, so does that mean their AI compute performance is no better?  Or does say Topaz software use the general GPU cores and so potentially could be four times faster?  Genuinely waiting on that to decide which Macbook I should be looking at.

It depends a lot on what task you are doing, what instructions are used etc. When using coreML the framework will split the network based on what is optimal, it will run the layers on differs hardware units depending on what is free and what the instructions are. It can make use of the CPU cores, the AMX (upto fp80 matrix co-prososor) the NPU (upto fp16 only) and the GPU (uptop fp32 int64). The M1 Pro/Max have 2 AMX units and of course that GPU so its very possible that the system will distribute the tasks quite differently than on an M1. 

[rrats]

No.

 

Gaming isn't as easy as rendering AfterEfects or Premiere Pro video.

[dhollinger]

On 10/20/2021 at 3:49 AM, Video Beagle said:

unless I misunderstand, Proton isn't steam. it's a linux thing steam is using.

Steam isn't breaking away from Windows...it's expanding into Linux. Steam is alreay on Mac OS (which "high security prison"?  It's a unix based os..it's extreemly open....You do know the company has several products, right?)...and making it so more games can run on Macs means more money for steam.

Proton is a project run by Valve that includes a custom build of WINE + support software and certain DLLs. There are a few forks of Proton (Proton-GE and Proton-TKG), however they are all specifically built for use in Steam. Any one of the Developers on Proton or their forks have explicitly said to NOT USE PROTON OUTSIDE OF STEAM. It makes a lot of assumptions, one of those being that it is being run by Steam. In fact, Proton used to have a way to run it outside of Steam and, IIRC, that has been removed due to issues it caused.

As for Proton on MacOS, Valve dropped support for Proton on MacOS before Proton even left beta back in 2018. My understanding is that Apple's departure from using standardized tooling and libraries were behind the decision. They didn't want to deal with translating DirectX to Vulkan to Metal and the performance hit that comes with that.... among other things.

[Jaesop]

No. Proton translates games to run on another x86 OS. x86 to ARM is an entire different ballgame.

[Jaesop]

On 10/19/2021 at 8:09 AM, Rauten said:

MS's half-way-walled garden for Apple's high security prison.

Nothing about windows is close to a walled garden. And you're overstating macOS as well.

[whm1974]

Since Vulkan is the Future of Gaming, why would any Game Developer and Publisher put out games for MacOS? Is Vulkan even supported on Apple M1 ARM hardware?

[RejZoR]

6 hours ago, Jaesop said:

Nothing about windows is close to a walled garden. And you're overstating macOS as well.

And people are overstating it for iOS too. Everyone whining and bitching about Apple's closed ecosystem and how you're tied to it somehow. And I'm here sitting with an iPhone on which I don't use a single Apple service and can switch to Android this moment and take like an hour to migrate everything and set phone the way I want it without really affecting my experience.

 

People keep confusing sideloading of apps, rooting and custom ROM's with "closed ecosystem" of being forced to only use Apple things. It's like they never even used anything Apple or something. And as you read all this BS about it everyone is afraid of Apple. And I'm telling this as someone who was eating this BS with big spoon until I just did plunge into Apple's stuff anyway and realized 99% of shit people say about it is just that, "shit".

 

Also those 3 things are most overstated, overhyped reasons to promote Android. Literally all 3 (sideloading, rooting and custom ROM's) are done by super tiny minority that is so loud it makes it seem like we're talking about billions of users who do that. In reality it's probably in single digit millions of users who sideload, root or install custom ROM's. 99% of everyone else just use whatever ROM came with the phone, they never root it and they get apps from Google Play. I'm a power user and I tried all those things and frankly, they bring more problems than they solve so I always ended up just using stock everything in the end. And I'm rooting and installing custom ROM's since Galaxy S2 days and those days were far more complicated than ROM's are today. It's just not worth it. It can be useful in very tiny minority of cases, but in those cases you wouldn't be using an iPhone anyway.

 

Honestly, I see it more of a problem being stuck into Google's ecosystem and features and going to iOS... Boy I had tons of work to do to ditch Google entirely and move to 3rd party services. That took me almost half a year to complete entire transition thoroughly.

[Jaesop]

4 hours ago, RejZoR said:

And people are overstating it for iOS too. Everyone whining and bitching about Apple's closed ecosystem and how you're tied to it somehow. And I'm here sitting with an iPhone on which I don't use a single Apple service and can switch to Android this moment and take like an hour to migrate everything and set phone the way I want it without really affecting my experience.

 

People keep confusing sideloading of apps, rooting and custom ROM's with "closed ecosystem" of being forced to only use Apple things. It's like they never even used anything Apple or something. And as you read all this BS about it everyone is afraid of Apple. And I'm telling this as someone who was eating this BS with big spoon until I just did plunge into Apple's stuff anyway and realized 99% of shit people say about it is just that, "shit".

 

Also those 3 things are most overstated, overhyped reasons to promote Android. Literally all 3 (sideloading, rooting and custom ROM's) are done by super tiny minority that is so loud it makes it seem like we're talking about billions of users who do that. In reality it's probably in single digit millions of users who sideload, root or install custom ROM's. 99% of everyone else just use whatever ROM came with the phone, they never root it and they get apps from Google Play. I'm a power user and I tried all those things and frankly, they bring more problems than they solve so I always ended up just using stock everything in the end. And I'm rooting and installing custom ROM's since Galaxy S2 days and those days were far more complicated than ROM's are today. It's just not worth it. It can be useful in very tiny minority of cases, but in those cases you wouldn't be using an iPhone anyway.

 

Honestly, I see it more of a problem being stuck into Google's ecosystem and features and going to iOS... Boy I had tons of work to do to ditch Google entirely and move to 3rd party services. That took me almost half a year to complete entire transition thoroughly.

I'm very much of the mindset that Apple needs to allow sideloading. I think a lot of complaints are Apple aren't necessarily overstated but ignored in competitors. But Apple does, like many, abuse their market position and I think the lack of proper sideloading is a step too far.

[Paul Thexton]

27 minutes ago, Jaesop said:

I'm very much of the mindset that Apple needs to allow sideloading. I think a lot of complaints are Apple aren't necessarily overstated but ignored in competitors. But Apple does, like many, abuse their market position and I think the lack of proper sideloading is a step too far.

I never enabled side loading on my Android phones/tablets. I have no intention of ever doing so on my iPhone. 

 

As to whether Apple should allow the enabling of side loading, I can see the arguments for and against it from both sides. Ultimately I suspect the decision will be made for Apple at a legislative level in the regions where they sell iOS devices.

 

 

[Jaesop]

9 hours ago, Paul Thexton said:

I never enabled side loading on my Android phones/tablets. I have no intention of ever doing so on my iPhone. 

 

As to whether Apple should allow the enabling of side loading, I can see the arguments for and against it from both sides. Ultimately I suspect the decision will be made for Apple at a legislative level in the regions where they sell iOS devices.

 

 

To be clear, I think Apple should be required to do so. They will never do it on their own.

[Gork]

no. 

Long answer? fuck no!

 

BLUF: it's proton is locked to steam.and is locked into a Janky world because it's a fancy new word for WINE.

Want to play something from Epic? tough shit. it's locked to steam.

What about from disney (assuming they have their own gaming eco system). nope.

GOG? Nope.

Something recent that's not published through anything special? hope you like headaches.

 

Tim Apple and Steve Ego made it clear they hate playing well with others. So others told those to idiots fine they'll leave them in the dust.

[Video Beagle]

I'm not a mod, just op.. could we keep this thread to the topic and not the floating trolling of "apple iz bad because i can't pirate a $1 game onto my$1000 phone" which can be found in a 100 other threads in this forum.

[whm1974]

On 11/7/2021 at 12:20 AM, Gork said:

no. 

Long answer? fuck no!

 

BLUF: it's proton is locked to steam.and is locked into a Janky world because it's a fancy new word for WINE.

Want to play something from Epic? tough shit. it's locked to steam.

What about from disney (assuming they have their own gaming eco system). nope.

GOG? Nope.

Something recent that's not published through anything special? hope you like headaches.

 

Tim Apple and Steve Ego made it clear they hate playing well with others. So others told those to idiots fine they'll leave them in the dust.

Proton is Basically Wine with Modifications and Enchantments. Valve is providing Funding for Wine Development.

[danomicar]

I believe this more or less comes down to Apple wanting to support gaming on their platforms, which they do not in my opinion. They're not going out of their way to make it difficult but they don't really want gaming to be a part of their brand beyond silly little mobile games in the Appstore.

[EphraimK]

OHH. That Proton. I thought you were talking about Protonmail.

[whm1974]

20 minutes ago, danomicar said:

I believe this more or less comes down to Apple wanting to support gaming on their platforms, which they do not in my opinion. They're not going out of their way to make it difficult but they don't really want gaming to be a part of their brand beyond silly little mobile games in the Appstore.

Never understood this. Wouldn't they sell more Macs due to more games?

[Spindel]

1 hour ago, whm1974 said:

Never understood this. Wouldn't they sell more Macs due to more games?

Nope.

 

Gamers love to overestimate their importance in the PC market but the truth is most personal computer (both windows machines and macs) are used and sold as tools to companies.

 

Another example; the last couple of years difficulties to get graphics cards is not driven by an explosion of gamers it’s because suddenly another use, besides gaming, emerged big time and that was crypto currency.

 

The big money in gaming is in consoles (and of course mobile).

[whm1974]

23 minutes ago, Spindel said:

Nope.

 

Gamers love to overestimate their importance in the PC market but the truth is most personal computer (both windows machines and macs) are used and sold as tools to companies.

 

Another example; the last couple of years difficulties to get graphics cards is not driven by an explosion of gamers it’s because suddenly another use, besides gaming, emerged big time and that was crypto currency.

 

The big money in gaming is in consoles (and of course mobile).

Thanks. I was just saying that Apple could sell more Macs to gamers.

[Arika]

7 hours ago, Spindel said:

Gamers love to overestimate their importance in the PC market

holy shit this is so accurate

[Restello]

I wonder, could the M1 Max be useful for VR? Seeing Apple working hard on AR and searching for VR options. This might reveal something..

[Video Beagle]

1 hour ago, Restello said:

I wonder, could the M1 Max be useful for VR? Seeing Apple working hard on AR and searching for VR options. This might reveal something..

I think that's assured, given the reasons you mention. Apple, if nothing else, makes it so one product enhances another in their line. Whether it be the M1, M1Pro, M1Max, or a special M1VR, they all dovetail together.

[danomicar]

19 hours ago, whm1974 said:

Never understood this. Wouldn't they sell more Macs due to more games?

Not quite. Apple is really the pinnacle of brand perception. They choose not to spend resources on gaming capabilities because they're not interested in being a brand that's associated with gaming. 

 

I believe it's because, in general, people do not associate video games with luxury. I'm sure many people here may disagree but I believe that's the general perception.  

 

They could sell 10 million more macs, or they could make a similar amount of revenue selling waaaay fewer units for a higher margin because they're seen as the peak of high-end personal and professional computing. 

[Arika]

2 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

Apple, if nothing else, makes it so one product enhances another in their line

except for that weird point in time where you can buy a new iphone and a new macbook and not have the cables to connect them to each other

 

No idea if that is still the case, but it was very amusing.

[InstantNewt]

12 hours ago, Arika S said:

except for that weird point in time where you can buy a new iphone and a new macbook and not have the cables to connect them to each other

 

No idea if that is still the case, but it was very amusing.

I believe the new iPhones ship with a lightning to usb-c cable so you can connect them now. Before the 11 or 12 that was not the case. 

[Video Beagle]

22 hours ago, InstantNewt said:

I believe the new iPhones ship with a lightning to usb-c cable so you can connect them now. Before the 11 or 12 that was not the case. 

and previously a lighting to USB-A cable, so don't know what they're on about.