Laptops sounding better than desktops, when using headphones

[Parvesh Khatri]

Hi everyone,

Whenever I try a laptop and connect my wired headphones it it, they sound better and louder than every desktop I have tried. The loudness is like 35% more compared to desktops.

In both cases, the output selected to headphones, both heaving realtek drivers.

I haven't tried ASUS ROG mobos with more capacitors but on almost all the basic mobos, the sound was not as louder as laptops, not even iPhones.

Any Idea why? And, do more capacitors on the motherboard makes the sound louder?

[HanZie82]

1 minute ago, Parvesh Khatri said:

Hi everyone,

Whenever I try a laptop and connect my wired headphones it it, they sound better and louder than every desktop I have tried. The loudness is like 35% more compared to desktops.

In both cases, the output selected to headphones, both heaving realtek drivers.

I haven't tried ASUS ROG mobos with more capacitors but on almost all the basic mobos, the sound was not as louder as laptops, not even iPhones.

Any Idea why? And, do more capacitors on the motherboard makes the sound louder?

What/which headphones?

 

[Parvesh Khatri]

Just now, HanZie82 said:

What/which headphones?

 

Wired headphones/earphones

Currently Sony mdr XB450AP(Who think these names?)

[MathewBijuBuz]

There is Windows setting in Legacy Volume Settings called Loudness EQ. It increases the volume of speakers.

It is likely that your laptop, has this feature enabled and desktop doesn't.

[Parvesh Khatri]

Just now, MathewBijuBuz said:

There is Windows setting in Legacy Volume Settings called Loudness EQ. It increases the volume of speakers.

It is likely that your laptop, has this feature enabled and desktop doesn't.

No, both having this turned off. This option only increases the volume in certain situations. But it never makes the sound louder if the audio file is good and the audio settings are not decreasing the output. BTW I also tested this on Linux Mint, same result.

[Roswell]

Laptops typically have better DACs/audio components than your ordinary desktop motherboard.
 

Manufacturers expect people to use headphone jacks on laptops compared to desktop motherboards where it’s pretty much an afterthought because of how little use they get.

[HanZie82]

I did check headphone specs, and nothing special there.
Its not even an high impedance headphones (24 Ω at 1 kHz), so this is pretty weird behavior.

 

 

Quote

Plug

Gold-plated L-shaped four-conductor stereo mini

It says in the specs it has the 4pole headset connector. Get yourself an adapter and it should be gone. (Source)
One of these: https://www.amazon.com/Headphone-Splitter-KOOPAO-Microphone-Earphones/dp/B084V3TRTV/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=headset+headphone+adapter+pc&qid=1633963872&sr=8-3

 

Notebooks with single headphone connetion use the headset 4pole TRRS connection. (so headphone and mic are the same connector.)

Most PC's use the 3pole TRS version, 1 for the headphones and another for the mic.

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Roswell said:

Laptops typically have better DACs/audio components than your ordinary desktop motherboard.
 

Manufacturers expect people to use headphone jacks on laptops compared to desktop motherboards where it’s pretty much an afterthought because of how little use they get.

Im sorry but this is completely incorrect.
In a mobile low power situation have more power reserved for better audio?
Makes no sense and is also not true. Not the thing about the DAC's and probably not about the expectations...

[Roswell]

4 minutes ago, HanZie82 said:

Im sorry but this is completely incorrect.
In a mobile low power situation have more power reserved for better audio?
Makes no sense and is also not true. Not the thing about the DAC's and probably not about the expectations...

It takes a very negligible amount of power to drive a pair of headphones.
 

You can also simply Google the sound hardware yourself. DIY motherboard manufacturers have been recycling the same garbage onboard sound hardware for like 15+ years unless you specifically buy a model that advertises something unique. Laptops on the other hand aren’t using onboard components from 2005 because they’re under a constant push to save space on the board/shrink the board itself which lends itself to sourcing modern components.

[LogicalDrm]

-> Moved to Audio

[Spuriae]

For starters, most cheap audio codecs are rated for 1Vrms output, whether it's a phone, laptop, desktop, or USB dongle. The output qualities may differ greatly between different models, but the loudness of all of them, if they were used in the same circuit, would be similar.

 

The issue is probably almost entirely output impedance. Headphones get louder (and reproduce sound more neutrally) from sources with lower output impedances. Motherboards virtually always use 75Ω resistors on their headphone outputs, while many laptop makers user smaller values. Most phones omit the resistors, but will sometimes have additional current limiting which reduces their maximum output with low impedance headphones. With 24Ω headphones like you are using, this effect is magnified. For instance, assuming a 24Ω load with 102dB/1mW sensitivity (the specs on your headphones), and assuming a 1Vrms unloaded source in all devices, I calculate:

 

• For output impedance ~1Ω (equivalent to many phones and dongles): 0.96V over headphones, and 38.4 mW power.
• For output impedance ~20Ω (equivalent to many laptops and some dongles): 0.545V over headphones, and 12.4 mW power.
• For output impedance ~75Ω (equivalent to most motherboards and some laptops): 0.242V over headphones, and 2.4 mW power.

Using (dB SPL) =  (dB/1mW) + 10 * log₁₀ (P) gives:

• For ~1Ω, 118 dB SPL
• For ~20Ω, 113 dB SPL
• For ~75Ω, 106 dB SPL

 

3 hours ago, Parvesh Khatri said:

Any Idea why? And, do more capacitors on the motherboard makes the sound louder?

The audio capacitors on motherboards are usually used for power filtering only. Practically, they do nothing compared to normal non-audio capacitors and are just there for marketing purposes. Sometimes they are used for coupling the microphone input, which can improve distortion performance on the input, but has no effect on the output.

2 hours ago, Roswell said:

You can also simply Google the sound hardware yourself. DIY motherboard manufacturers have been recycling the same garbage onboard sound hardware for like 15+ years unless you specifically buy a model that advertises something unique. Laptops on the other hand aren’t using onboard components from 2005 because they’re under a constant push to save space on the board/shrink the board itself which lends itself to sourcing modern components.

Laptop chips optimize for higher output and more efficient speaker amplification, since this has a significant effect on battery life and most users' experience. The headphone outputs are not similarly optimized (at least not to the extent that they are on desktop codecs).

[HenrySalayne]

5 hours ago, Parvesh Khatri said:

Hi everyone,

Whenever I try a laptop and connect my wired headphones it it, they sound better and louder than every desktop I have tried. The loudness is like 35% more compared to desktops.

Louder sounds better. Mystery solved. It's 99% the additional volume and not major differences in sound.

[HanZie82]

18 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

Motherboards virtually always use 75Ω resistors on their headphone outputs, while many laptop makers user smaller values. Most phones omit the resistors, but will sometimes have additional current limiting which reduces their maximum output with low impedance headphones.

• For output impedance ~1Ω (equivalent to many phones and dongles): 0.96V over headphones, and 38.4 mW power.
• For output impedance ~20Ω (equivalent to many laptops and some dongles): 0.545V over headphones, and 12.4 mW power.
• For output impedance ~75Ω (equivalent to most motherboards and some laptops): 0.242V over headphones, and 2.4 mW power.

whats your source for these numbers? Im really interested.

 

I cant believe all the in depth and useless info thats being share while OP just needs that 4pole to 3pole adapter...

[Spuriae]

51 minutes ago, HanZie82 said:

whats your source for these numbers? Im really interested.

For the impedance numbers it's from a sample of measurements online. Although not all devices use those output impedance values, they are common in their classes.

• For phones very low output impedance is common. Samsung S10 2Ω. LG G7 1.6Ω. iPhone 5S 2Ω. Keep in mind that impedance measurements this low are usually inflated compared to the actual value due to cabling and connections.
• For laptops it's difficult to find people who have measured these. HP Z laptop 17Ω. Dell Inspiron 7548 23Ω. Lenovo G770 17Ω. Some laptops certainly use higher or lower value resistors (usually still below 75Ω), but it seems there is a trend to standardize around 20Ω in Windows laptops. Apple seems to target low output impedance like on their other mobile devices.
• For motherboards the headphone amplifier outputs (not the line out) are the relevant ones. MSI Z390 Gaming Pro Carbon 73Ω. Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master 78Ω. I have also run calculations on the voltage measurements of X570 motherboards here and gotten about 75Ω.

With impedance values and unloaded voltage, output voltage and power can then be calculated using Ohm's law.

1 hour ago, HanZie82 said:

I cant believe all the in depth and useless info thats being share while OP just needs that 4pole to 3pole adapter...

There's no good electrical reason for the connnector being an issue. TRRS and TRS are designed to be cross-compatible, with the only loss being the microphone channel, which is grounded. Although occasionally issues can crop up when the connectors are physically poorly matched, this usually results in heavily distorted and significantly reduced or completely inadubile output, not a ~35% power loss.

[HanZie82]

7 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

For the impedance numbers it's from a sample of measurements online. Although not all devices use those output impedance values, they are common in their classes.

• For phones very low output impedance is common. Samsung S10 2Ω. LG G7 1.6Ω. iPhone 5S 2Ω. Keep in mind that impedance measurements this low are usually inflated compared to the actual value due to cabling and connections.
• For laptops it's difficult to find people who have measured these. HP Z laptop 17Ω. Dell Inspiron 7548 23Ω. Lenovo G770 17Ω. Some laptops certainly use higher or lower value resistors (usually still below 75Ω), but it seems there is a trend to standardize around 20Ω in Windows laptops. Apple seems to target low output impedance like on their other mobile devices.
• For motherboards the headphone amplifier outputs (not the line out) are the relevant ones. MSI Z390 Gaming Pro Carbon 73Ω. Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master 78Ω. I have also run calculations on the voltage measurements of X570 motherboards here and gotten about 75Ω.

Thank you for this in depth response i read trough most of it and very interesting.
Altho clearly to see on the notebook side that it might have lower resistance but also lower power output.

And reminded me that it matters if the (for desktops) the front port or the back ports are used.
Front audio out has more chances to have the headphone out amp (this more power for output).

 

7 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

With impedance values and unloaded voltage, output voltage and power can then be calculated using Ohm's law.

There's no good electrical reason for the connnector being an issue. TRRS and TRS are designed to be cross-compatible, with the only loss being the microphone channel, which is grounded. Although occasionally issues can crop up when the connectors are physically poorly matched, this usually results in heavily distorted and significantly reduced or completely inadubile output, not a ~35% power loss.

I've found a lot of 3pole connectors use the bottom part for ground, and on 4pole thats where the mic lies.
Having ground go trough the mic, besides having it make sound to it might be enough resistance to lower the volume with 30%ish.

[Spuriae]

7 minutes ago, HanZie82 said:

Altho clearly to see on the notebook side that it might have lower resistance but also lower power output.

That's where the codec itself comes in. I settled on 1Vrms for the calculations above because it is representative of the most common chips. Devices with different output levels are still common.

17 minutes ago, HanZie82 said:

And reminded me that it matters if the (for desktops) the front port or the back ports are used.
Front audio out has more chances to have the headphone out amp (this more power for output).

Absolutely true. Newer high end motherboards have around double the power output and significantly lower distortion into low impedance loads from the headphone output, while older designs sometimes have astronomically high output impedances from their line outs.

19 minutes ago, HanZie82 said:

I've found a lot of 3pole connectors use the bottom part for ground, and on 4pole thats where the mic lies.

Having ground go trough the mic, besides having it make sound to it might be enough resistance to lower the volume with 30%ish.

There is still a ground to ground connection when plugging TRS intro TRRS or vice versa. Grounding the microphone contact is done in parallel, so it does not increase the headphone's resistance to ground.

 

[HanZie82]

4 minutes ago, Nimrodor said:

There is still a ground to ground connection when plugging TRS intro TRRS or vice versa. Grounding the microphone contact is done in parallel, so it does not increase the headphone's resistance to ground.

I meant this part highlighted with the red arrow. It uses that as ground on 3pole connection.
As they are not inline with the cross-compatability.
Usually on front panel of older cases.

 

In my personal experience the only compatibility is that a headset 4pole socket can have a 3pole headphone connector plugged in but not the other way around (as much).

[Spuriae]

42 minutes ago, HanZie82 said:

I meant this part highlighted with the red arrow. It uses that as ground on 3pole connection.
As they are not inline with the cross-compatability.
Usually on front panel of older cases.

 

In my personal experience the only compatibility is that a headset 4pole socket can have a 3pole headphone connector plugged in but not the other way around (as much).

So, I just went out and tested it.

 

I have both a 4 pole and 3 pole cable for my HD650. Plugging into my phone, motherboard, and front panel it sounds identical using either cable. Plugging into a cheap Y-splitter with the 4 pole massively reduces the volume and makes the audio sound like it's underwater (plays the difference between channels while cancelling mono content, indicative of high ground impedance). Pressing the volume control and microphone buttons somewhat fix the problem because they work by swapping a lower valued resistor into the microphone line, confirming that the problem with the splitter is indeed that the ground contact on the receptacle is in the wrong place.

 

I am not convinced that this is the scenario that OP is facing, since the effect should be very significant compared to what was described and because it did not occur from any of my devices. It can be easily tested, though. OP can compare how the headphones sound plugged into the motherboard with the inline button pressed and not pressed. If the output is noticeably louder when the button is pressed down, then your solution with the adapter is likely the correct one.

[Parvesh Khatri]

On 10/12/2021 at 5:49 PM, HanZie82 said:

whats your source for these numbers? Im really interested.

 

I cant believe all the in depth and useless info thats being share while OP just needs that 4pole to 3pole adapter...

I'm already using one