That's it - I'm returning my entire PC

[Filingo]

So I built my AMD PC with 5600x and B550 Tomahawk.

At first I had the old BIOS and I had the USB disconnections issues.

Then I updated the BIOS.

Then I switched my stock cooler to another cooler and realized how bad is AMD design, where you can NOT remove the heatsink from the CPU and you can easily destroy it.

Then I upgraded to Windows 11 and now I see that AMD suffer about 15% performance loss on Windows 11.

 

A company that releases unfinished products. Amazing that they kept releasing this AM4 socket over and over with this faulty design.

And the fact that they have a major issue in their 500 series chipset and they never actually told us customers what causes this, but being shady like some intelligence agency..

 

Damn, when they released the message with the "root cause" phrase (instead of actually saying what it is), I immediately started thinking about returning it, but the last incidents were the last nails in this AMD PC coffin. Btw, I still have issues when using wireless USB keyboards and mice.

 

No thank you - I'm returning everything. I don't need a PC that I have to worry about every Monday.

 

I started the return today, should return everything by next week.

I will either wait for Black Friday, or just get a simple 11600K + Z590 combo instead.

 

I'm happy that at least I managed to review the Thermalright PA120 before I returned it. I still have a few days to finish this review and update the Noise section.

 

 

 

AMD - Never again. (Or at least until I see the new AM5 socket and the next gen CPUs from AMD)

[Origami Cactus]

ok

 

[Filingo]

1 minute ago, Origami Cactus said:

ok

 

Thank you for understanding my rage 

[Origami Cactus]

Just now, Filingo said:

Thank you for understanding my rage 

Yeah i wanted to write a long rant of how i have used AMD since the first Ryzen 1700 and have been fine, but there have been a few issues here and there, that i have dealt with over the years, and if you are a non techy person that just wants something that just works, then sometimes building your own pc is just not ideal and can lead you to a mindset that screw it, I just want a pc that works, nothing more, nothing less.

So I understand where you are coming from.

[mariushm]

Sorry, that's just mostly user error.

 

The stock cooler is not bad and the default mounting system is actually quite good. It's actually much better than Intel's system with those plastic clips that over time due to heat cycles actually harden and can crack or break. AMD's side clips can also break, but they're cheaper to replace compared to cooler clips on Intel cpus.

ANY cooler can get stuck to the cpu due to the thermal paste. The simple solution is to warm up the cpu by running the pc for a few minutes, then you unlock the cooler and gently twist it sideways left and right until the thermal paste gets loose.

Either way, you could pull the cpu with the heatsink from the socket and you'll be fine, it's not good for the motherboard and the socket, but it wouldn't cause damage.

Think of the pins going between two v shaped contacts, and the clip on the side of the socket closing pushes all the v contacts on one side of the pins making the holes smaller. So, with the clip in position, there's pressure on the pins of the cpu. If you pull the cpu out by force without unclipping, you may scratch some of those v contacts and that's about all. You can just unclip to let the tension off and mount the cpu again. 

 

You just upgraded to Windows 100 and you got 15 % off ... of course it's AMD's fault, and not Microsoft's fault. Windows 11 is perfect and doesn't have any bugs.

In windows 11, they do a lot of shit with virtualization and memory protection  and memory encryption of various areas of memory using cryptographic keys, crap that Microsoft may have optimized for Intel CPUs first or maybe some of those functions are a bit slower than Intel functions.

Windows 10 didn't use those functions so of course it works fine.

 

As for the usb stuff .... you don't know how complicated it is to make chips. It's just a bug related to power management, to various clock timings inside the chipset, causing the usb controllers to behave weirdly in some scenarios... it's stuff that can happen and it's hard to diagnose.

Intel had much more serious flaws, just those latest vulnerabilities related to hyperthreading required lots of bios updates and slowed down the performance of the computer OVERALL  ... and the computers with Intel CPUs are still vulnerable in some cases, unless you disable hyperthreading.

 

6 minutes ago, Origami Cactus said:

then sometimes building your own pc is just not ideal and can lead you to a mindset that screw it, I just want a pc that works, nothing more, nothing less.

Yeah he should have  bought a HP with an A320 chipset motherboard and 1700 and be stuck with bioses from 2019, because the system's dead to them after a year of launch.

Then he'd still complain about AMD being the problem.

 

 

[Filingo]

Ok I think I gotta be less impulsive then. Sorry guys. My first PC build since 2011 so it made me more annoyed I guess

[Pixelfie]

How is it AMD's fault with the 15% perf loss in W11? That seems like Microsoft's fault to me, and they will fix it soon.

 

That USB issue is most likely related to the motherboard and not AMD. If you want to get rid of this issue connect your kbm to the USB's controlled by the CPU instead of the chipset. Your motherboard manufacturer probably didn't add the AGESA update that fixed it, or the update didn't complete.

 

If you want to go Intel, I would just wait for black friday, because 12th gen would be available by then and 11th gen is probably much cheaper because of it being previous gen + black friday.

[Origami Cactus]

2 minutes ago, mariushm said:

Sorry, that's just mostly user error.

 

The stock cooler is not bad and the default mounting system is actually quite good. It's actually much better than Intel's system with those plastic clips that over time due to heat cycles actually harden and can crack or break. AMD's side clips can also break, but they're cheaper to replace compared to cooler clips on Intel cpus.

ANY cooler can get stuck to the cpu due to the thermal paste. The simple solution is to warm up the cpu by running the pc for a few minutes, then you unlock the cooler and gently twist it sideways left and right until the thermal paste gets loose.

Either way, you could pull the cpu with the heatsink from the socket and you'll be fine, it's not good for the motherboard and the socket, but it wouldn't cause damage.

Think of the pins going between two v shaped contacts, and the clip on the side of the socket closing pushes all the v contacts on one side of the pins making the holes smaller. So, with the clip in position, there's pressure on the pins of the cpu. If you pull the cpu out by force without unclipping, you may scratch some of those v contacts and that's about all. You can just unclip to let the tension off and mount the cpu again. 

 

You just upgraded to Windows 100 and you got 15 % off ... of course it's AMD's fault, and not Microsoft's fault. Windows 11 is perfect and doesn't have any bugs.

In windows 11, they do a lot of shit with virtualization and memory protection  and memory encryption of various areas of memory using cryptographic keys, crap that Microsoft may have optimized for Intel CPUs first or maybe some of those functions are a bit slower than Intel functions.

Windows 10 didn't use those functions so of course it works fine.

 

As for the usb stuff .... you don't know how complicated it is to make chips. It's just a bug related to power management, to various clock timings inside the chipset, causing the usb controllers to behave weirdly in some scenarios... it's stuff that can happen and it's hard to diagnose.

Intel had much more serious flaws, just those latest vulnerabilities related to hyperthreading required lots of bios updates and slowed down the performance of the computer OVERALL  ... and the computers with Intel CPUs are still vulnerable in some cases, unless you disable hyperthreading.

 

Yeah he should have  bought a HP with an A320 chipset motherboard and 1700 and be stuck with bioses from 2019, because the system's dead to them after a year of launch.

Then he'd still complain about AMD being the problem.

 

 

Yup, that the kind of response i would have given a few years ago when i still had the energy.

But i have to say, most times we do things based on feelings, not purely logic based.

Even if he fixed the things you said, he would still feel like it is AMD's fault every time a bug or something came up, so if he feels better with Intel it is what it is.

Thats why we have competition, so consumers can pick the brand they feel best with.

 

If im buying a dryer for example i don't have the time to research every single dryer and compare the specs, i buy the dryer from brand my parents used and it will work fine.

 

Life is too short to worry about every single little thing, so if he doesn't have time to fix some issues, let him just use what he wants and lets him worry less about that.

[SansVarnic]

-= Moved to Off Topic =-

 

Please keep rants or Status updates confined to your Status Update feature.

[Moonzy]

Pretty done with AMD for now on my end either

 

The constant disconnection of USB despite me updating my bios and such is too much

Plus, I hate not being able to use the HDMI port on my motherboard which I DESPERATELY need

Maybe if they can entice me again, but it just feels unpolished compared to my Intel experience over the years

 

I own an MSI b550 with 3600 and a x570 tuf with 3900x, I gave them plenty chance

[Origami Cactus]

8 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Except Intel does this too.  Like, the bios thing that's MSI.  The cooler thing that's literally Cooler Master, not AMD.  The problem is all OEM pastes in this scenario is basically an adhesive.  It's been known for over 20 years to twist then pull.  If the user goes to yank it that's their own damn fault.  You're basically beta testing a new OS too that is more MS's fault than AMD's, tbh.  AMD is already working on a fix even though it isn't their fault.  But, keep screeching at AMD, OP.

But lets look at this way.

Presumably he had an prebuilt intel i5 7400 PC that worked just fine for all these years, 

then decided to build a brand new pc with an AMD processor and MSI motherboard, and at the same time win 11 came out.

 

If he is not tech sawy, how does he know whose fault it is. He just feels that he switched to AMD and THEN all the troubles began. His intel pc had worked fine for years on end, but suddenly he has dozens of problems, all which require a lot of troubleshooting.

So to him it seemed like it was AMD fault, even if it wasn't. As i said, it was based on feelings.

 

"It's been known for over 20 years to twist then pull."

 

Yeah, known to who. Pretty sure if i tried to change the oil in my car and did something wrong, a guy like you, but just into cars, would come to me and would rant that something i did wrong was known for 50 years since that type of oil filter was invented or something.

But your average joe doesn't know that info, even if it feels like the most basic fact of life to you.

 

But you are true, it is always a good idea to clean up any misinformation in the rant, maybe someone reading it might find a solution to their problem from that. But i just don't see a reason to belittle the OP, for facts that were clearly unknown to him at the time of writing.

[Origami Cactus]

5 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

Pretty done with AMD for now on my end either

 

The constant disconnection of USB despite me updating my bios and such is too much

Plus, I hate not being able to use the HDMI port on my motherboard which I DESPERATELY need

Maybe if they can entice me again, but it just feels unpolished compared to my Intel experience over the years

 

I own an MSI b550 with 3600 and a x570 tuf with 3900x, I gave them plenty chance

Seems like the USB issue is an MSI issue, so if you want to switch to intel, also don't buy MSI motherboards for that.

 

If you want to use the Motherboard video ports, AMD makes lots of APUS with very powerful graphics cards built in, for very affordable prices, might be worth looking into.

[Moonzy]

40 minutes ago, Origami Cactus said:

Seems like the USB issue is an MSI issue, so if you want to switch to intel, also don't buy MSI motherboards for that.

On the contrary, it's been an issue on my Asus board, not the MSI board

And it only creeps up when I have high traffic going on (ie, torrenting and have many connections going on), but when it does it can disconnect my USB audio every couple minutes and it gets annoying

 

I have yet to encounter it in my MSI board, but that's because I didn't spend much time with it

 

40 minutes ago, Origami Cactus said:

AMD makes lots of APUS with very powerful graphics cards built in

1) their APU have less pcie lanes and cache, which is cut down, but I guess it don't matter if it's still better performing than the competitor

2) I've haven't seen anyone successfully running iGPU and dGPU concurrently on AMD platform, 2 out of 2 that I tried to help enable iGPU when they have dGPU plugged in have reported back to me that it didn't work right, not sure what's the cause, while most Intel solutions works just fine and only heard of one that doesn't

Pretty sure that Intel have it nailed down because of the laptop market, and I'm not sure if AMD laptop CPU are APU or not so...

 

3) APU was one architecture behind when I got my chip, so that's another reason not to get it

[Dutch_Master]

26 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

Plus, I hate not being able to use the HDMI port on my motherboard which I DESPERATELY need

You know that these only work when you install an AMD APU, right? If your CPU has no graphics, these connectors won't do anything. Ever. In fact, I'm pretty sure it says exactly that in the mainboard manual. Because it's in every mainboard manual for AMD Ryzen   You didn't read and you blame AMD for you not RTFM!

 

You do realise that with such blatant ignorance people aren't gonna take you seriously anymore, right. You have one shot at redeeming yourself, don't blow it. Ask the moderators to delete this thread, apologise to them for giving them more work on top on their already busy workday and get it ingrained in your brain to do your homework before ranting!

[Moonzy]

2 minutes ago, Dutch_Master said:

You know that these only work when you install an AMD APU, right? If your CPU has no graphics, these connectors won't do anything. Ever. In fact, I'm pretty sure it says exactly that in the mainboard manual. Because it's in every mainboard manual for AMD Ryzen   You didn't read and you blame AMD for you not RTFM!

Yes I know APU exist and why my ports aren't working

 

Read my other reply for future explanation on why I didn't go with APU

 

I also hate the fact that Intel started releasing F series chips, which my local retailer will carry more of them compared to non-F variety because they're cheaper

But at least if I went with 10400 instead of 10400f, I'm essentially getting the same chip without less pcie lanes etc

 

Also, I didn't create this thread, if you didn't read who posted what

[sub68]

1 hour ago, Filingo said:

where you can NOT remove the heatsink from the CPU and you can easily destroy it.

huh?

the suction from the cooler to the cpu?

the easy way to do it is to twist the cooler.

its been like that since AM1

1 hour ago, Filingo said:

Then I upgraded to Windows 11 and now I see that AMD suffer about 15% performance loss on Windows 11.

thats a microsoft thing

 

[Moonzy]

4 minutes ago, sub68 said:

its been like that since AM1

Just because it's always been that way doesn't mean it's okay

 

They said AM5 will have retention mechanism, so we'll wait and see

[sub68]

1 minute ago, Moonzy said:

Just because it's always been that way doesn't mean it's okay

yeah, but I think amd had a reason why they liked that system

1 minute ago, Moonzy said:

They said AM5 will have retention mechanism, so we'll wait and see

ooh cool

[Moonzy]

2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

 Not listening to AMD is user error.

I think pinning the responsibility onto users for inadequate design is not the right way to go about things

But that's just my opinion

[Moonzy]

2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

I wouldn't call it inadequate design btw, but more or less a poor choice on what paste to use. 

I sure don't hear Intel having such issues from cheap pastes, maybe it's because they designed their socket well

 

I would say the consistency of a paste doesn't matter as long as it's not super gluing my CPU to the cooler like epoxy and if it's transferring heat adequately enough

If your CPU mounting mechanism requires you to specifically say "oh you need to twist and turn the cooler before pulling it up or your CPU could come out and get damaged" is like acknowledging the issue but not fixing it, and pinning the responsibility onto the user

 

I'm not gonna give them too much flack for their socket, they're improving the next iteration with a retention mechanism, so I'll wait until then to see how it goes

The current socket have awful retention mechanism which is friction based, it is what it is

[Filingo]

And the cooler that was glued was the stock cooler with AMD pre-applied thermal paste, you'd think that if they are aware of this issue, they'd apply at least a decent paste on their own heatsink.

And it was new, I removed it after only 2 weeks. AND I ran Prime95 for 10 minutes.

[Daethz]

Havent had any problems with my 5950x other than that USB issue, i have one unstable usb port that I don't use.

they NEED to solve that problem, should be amd's top priority, even over developing next-gen.

[mariushm]

The paste pre-applied on coolers is not the best, but it's not because they're trying to save money, it's because they have to use a formulation which keeps that paste up usable to 6-12 months or so, the amount of time the cpu could sit on shelves until it's bought.  The paste on the heatsink is not under some sticker that would prevent air from getting in, there's just some plastic cover to keep the cooler separate from the cpu.

Sure, they could supply a syringe but that's extra packaging ... the applied paste is maybe 10 cents, even less ... a separate syring would be maybe half a dollar to a dollar, and extra weight... and some users may forget to apply it, others may put it incorrectly... the pre-applied paste is more idiot-proof.

 

Good paste is not expensive... if you can buy Arctic Cooler MX-2 65g for around $40 or 50g of MX-5 for around $75... the MX-2 is probably sold in volume for $25-30 or $0.5 a gram ...  they could easily just make a deal to buy the paste in tens or hundreds of kg and make 2g baggies to put inside boxes.

 

[Daethz]

1 minute ago, mariushm said:

The paste pre-applied on coolers is not the best, but it's not because they're trying to save money, it's because they have to use a formulation which keeps that paste up usable to 6-12 months or so

 

Should never use the pre-applied paste unless your really strapped for money that you cant afford a $5 tube of arctic mx

[Moonzy]

1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

Pretty much going back as far as the P4 days, to modern times, I've seen Intel stock coolers ripping out CPUs due to the paste either drying out or just being an adhesive.  Haven't had that issue with coolers like the drgb or freezer II.  From what I found it's the paste.  I've experimented with a modernish stock cooler as my i9 didn't come with one, curiosity of a friend on an i9 and with the ryzen 3900x I've tested this with the stock wraith.  Both coolers with stock paste tried ripping the cpus out of the socket if I just lifted.  I had to turn and lift.  The i9 in the server has a freezer II and kryonaut and the 3900x has a drgb and kryonaut.  Kryonaut I've never had the adhesive issue with.  I have at times with hydronaut, but that was user error iirc.

Explain to me how a modern Intel CPU that have metal retention bracket pressing on the IHS would get ripped out of the socket by removing the cooler? I definitely want to see a photo or video of that happening

I can only imagine either the screws holding it in gave way, or the entire motherboard would have to be broken for that to happen, in both cases, extreme force is required