Developers Publicly Criticze Nvidia's GameWorks Program on Twitter For Its "BlackBox" Nature.

[dragosudeki]

They are selling a Dual GPU for $3000.(3 Years ago a dual GPU was $599)

I don't think they have any problems.

If they wanted they could just release Maxwell.

They are probably having problems with Maxwell or will release it when DirectX12 becomes available so the card will support it. I didn't say they were having problems, but they probably see AMD doing better right now. Like I said, the sales on AMD's card went crazy over the bitcoin craze, AMD's Mantle is getting more top titles on its wagon (which will make AMD's card perform better in more games until DirectX12 releases and is supported/used), and AMD's FreeSync is now a standard which defeats their new feature that they were bringing. It's not them having problems, but I think jealousy is involved.

[Lord_Kitty]

An intelligent, informed and rational disscussion on LTT? Haven't seen that in a long time. Faith in this forum restored.

[YesItsMe]

So with this whole GameWorks program shenanigans nVidia is actually trying to disallow us[Consumers] from reaping Mantle benefits because they aren't willing to use it for themselves despite it being open source(Or at least, they will analyze it and use it for their own competitive benefit in the name of "introducing a powerful API, not Mantle") , but rather continue with DX12.. All the while trying to 'prove' DX11 > Mantle because of how their program let them lock out devs for proper optimization of Mantle...

Fucking Bastards (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ , as much as i try not to be biased in any way, nVidia is doing all sorts of bullshit that makes me root for AMD. Fuck you nVidia in the name of all consumers, seriously. I know competition is tough, but i'd rather a company with morals than pure profit, especially when profit is gained at the expense of the consumers, not just competitors. That's like, doubly dirty.

not from me

I sheer for nvidia you go Nvidia!! Show them how to make $$$

[GamerDude]

not from me

I sheer for nvidia you go Nvidia!! Show them how to make $$$

See post above...

 

An intelligent, informed and rational disscussion on LTT? Haven't seen that in a long time. Faith in this forum restored.

Yep, your faith has been most undoubtedly restored....

[Humbug]

Things like this and PhysX are a large part of why I am buying Radeon. I have a lot of respect for Nvidia's products and my 9600gt was great for so many years, but as a stakeholder in the gaming industry I feel more inclined to support AMD and their direction.

[Scionyde]

They are probably having problems with Maxwell or will release it when DirectX12 becomes available so the card will support it. I didn't say they were having problems, but they probably see AMD doing better right now. Like I said, the sales on AMD's card went crazy over the bitcoin craze, AMD's Mantle is getting more top titles on its wagon (which will make AMD's card perform better in more games until DirectX12 releases and is supported/used), and AMD's FreeSync is now a standard which defeats their new feature that they were bringing. It's not them having problems, but I think jealousy is involved.

 

I don't think the increased sales from the mining craze is something that was completely positive for them. Yeah, it meant more sales, but gamers are still their target audience. All of those inflated prices probably meant that more than a few gamers who were on the fence went Nvidia, and that was a little bit of a lost opportunity to get people into their ecosystem. It was a short term win, but it's arguable that it was a long term loss.

 

That same argument you use for G-Sync getting "defeated" applies to Mantle. In the end, it's one company's solution potentially being made obsolete by an industry standard. And even then, it’ll take time. Just as how games with DX12 won’t appear right away, we’ll need to wait for monitors that support the new standard. I’d venture to say that G-Sync is as much of a success/failure as Mantle is. (And in both cases, we should really wait for reviews as to whether DX12 or Mantle provides better performance increases or whether Freesync can even provide the same benefits as G-Sync).

 

AMD made Nvidia drop their prices on cards which was really cool, but I really don’t think there are any resounding wins here to make one “jealous” of the other.

.

[Lord_Kitty]

Yep, your faith has been most undoubtedly restored....

Should have checked page 2 before posting that.

[Ashaira]

I don't think the increased sales from the mining craze is something that was completely positive for them. Yeah, it meant more sales, but gamers are still their target audience. All of those inflated prices probably meant that more than a few gamers who were on the fence went Nvidia, and that was a little bit of a lost opportunity to get people into their ecosystem. It was a short term win, but it's arguable that it was a long term loss.

 

That same argument you use for G-Sync getting "defeated" applies to Mantle. In the end, it's one company's solution potentially being made obsolete by an industry standard. And even then, it’ll take time. Just as how games with DX12 won’t appear right away, we’ll need to wait for monitors that support the new standard. I’d venture to say that G-Sync is as much of a success/failure as Mantle is. (And in both cases, we should really wait for reviews as to whether DX12 or Mantle provides better performance increases or whether Freesync can even provide the same benefits as G-Sync).

 

AMD made Nvidia drop their prices on cards which was really cool, but I really don’t think there are any resounding wins here to make one “jealous” of the other.

.

 

I agree on the whole. But people keep forgetting AMD wanted to create a standard not a propriatary solution with Mantle. And i am 1000% sure Mantle's code went into DX12 and was modified. You really think they would start from 0 when they already had an API from people willing to share it?

[Misanthrope]

Now if we could get a third company with the technology Nvidia has and the more open ended attitude of AMD then we'd had something special.

[LAwLz]

And i am 1000% sure Mantle's code went into DX12 and was modified. You really think they would start from 0 when they already had an API from people willing to share it?

You better have a very reliable source to back that claim up with...

 

 

 

Anyway like Jason pointed out, it's mostly PhysX and it shouldn't be a surprised they want to open that up, just like AMD hasn't made Mantle free and open.

It's sad because we customers could benefit from it, but it's business like normal.

 

 

Now if we could get a third company with the technology Nvidia has and the more open ended attitude of AMD then we'd had something special.

What open attitude? I seriously don't get where this idea that AMD is open comes from. Mantle is as closed source as for example PhysX or Windows.

[dragosudeki]

I don't think the increased sales from the mining craze is something that was completely positive for them. Yeah, it meant more sales, but gamers are still their target audience. All of those inflated prices probably meant that more than a few gamers who were on the fence went Nvidia, and that was a little bit of a lost opportunity to get people into their ecosystem. It was a short term win, but it's arguable that it was a long term loss.

 

That same argument you use for G-Sync getting "defeated" applies to Mantle. In the end, it's one company's solution potentially being made obsolete by an industry standard. And even then, it’ll take time. Just as how games with DX12 won’t appear right away, we’ll need to wait for monitors that support the new standard. I’d venture to say that G-Sync is as much of a success/failure as Mantle is. (And in both cases, we should really wait for reviews as to whether DX12 or Mantle provides better performance increases or whether Freesync can even provide the same benefits as G-Sync).

 

AMD made Nvidia drop their prices on cards which was really cool, but I really don’t think there are any resounding wins here to make one “jealous” of the other.

.

Increased sales is positive for any company... They may have lost quite a bit of gamers, but having gamers buy it doesn't give any more profit than having a miner buy it. Its a complete market that Nvidia has missed out on. Look at things from a companies perspective and not the user's perspective because the type of user buying it doesn't give AMD any more money.

Mantle has gotten more support and may be obsolete in the future, but right now, Mantle is dominating. Your correct on DirectX12 about unknown performance gains, so right now Mantle is the one thing we know that actually boosts performance (for a certain architecture no doubt). This also ties in with your first argument as it will be a feature that gamers will be interested in.

G-Sync isn't really out yet, just the module. There are probably people who will install the module into the monitor and sell it, but I don't think you can buy it directly from a manufacturer with the module installed out of the box. Technically, they haven't even milked out all the possible sales they could have when this was the only thing that does what it does. FreeSync will take time, but I feel out of the box GSync monitors will take too long before FreeSync actually becomes a thing. Now, if they made GSync work with other interfaces like DVI/HDMI/VGA, then GSync will become more interesting.

As far as reviews, I've seen some that say the price point of the GSync module isn't worth the feature it does. I bet most gamers haven't even seen the difference (myself included) as we didn't go to the show and no retailer shows it on display (probably because it isn't an out of the box feature yet).

[exyia]

I seriously don't get it

 

If you want full control of lighting, ambient occlusion, etc - code it yourself

 

You want to use nvidia's years of R&D on recreating these effects with such accuracy, precision, detail, and performance......but want to use said code as if it was something you made yourself?

 

get real....everything is a business. you can't just give free hand-outs on the core focus of your business.....

[Misanthrope]

What open attitude? I seriously don't get where this idea that AMD is open comes from. Mantle is as closed source as for example PhysX or Windows.

 

Fair enough, let me rephrase that: Less closed, proprietary and exclusive by comparison to Nvidia. 

[Ashaira]

You better have a very reliable source to back that claim up with...

 

Personal opinion. We will find out in time for sure.

[LukaP]

What open attitude? I seriously don't get where this idea that AMD is open comes from. Mantle is as closed source as for example PhysX or Windows.

Amd many times said that if nvidia wanted to use mantle tech, theyd gladly give it to them... Its not open source, but its definitely not closed and proprietary.

[LAwLz]

Personal opinion. We will find out in time for sure.

It's not really a personal opinion if you say you are 100% sure one product contains code from another product.

 

 

Fair enough, let me rephrase that: Less closed, proprietary and exclusive by comparison to Nvidia. 

That I can kind of agree with. That's like saying HIV is better than AIDS though. Not really a big achievement.

 

 

 

Amd many times said that if nvidia wanted to use mantle tech, theyd gladly give it to them... Its not open source, but its definitely not closed and proprietary.

Define "give to them". Give it to them in exchange for money? Give it to them in exchange for something else? Would they get access to the source code or would they just have to follow orders given by AMD to get it working properly?

If it's not open then it is closed. There is no middle ground for being open or closed source, and Mantle is proprietary because AMD holds all the rights to it, that is what proprietary means. Mantle will be closed and proprietary until the day they license it under a free license such as for example GPL or an open source license like BSD license.

[Ashaira]

It's not really a personal opinion if you say you are 100% sure one product contains code from another product.

 

It is. I never said i hear it from a source or anything. Usually when someone states something without specifying a source then it is considered an opinion. But let's not argue over this. Back to arguing over NVIDIA and AMD

[carolkarine]

And this is why I vote amd with my wallet. Nvidia for their scummy business practices.

[Victorious Secret]

And this is why I vote amd with my wallet. Nvidia for their scummy business practices.

Oh, and AMD is innocent?

Lol.

[pixeldensity]

 

Define "give to them". Give it to them in exchange for money? Give it to them in exchange for something else? Would they get access to the source code or would they just have to follow orders given by AMD to get it working properly?

If it's not open then it is closed. There is no middle ground for being open or closed source, and Mantle is proprietary because AMD holds all the rights to it, that is what proprietary means. Mantle will be closed and proprietary until the day they license it under a free license such as for example GPL or an open source license like BSD license.

I'm pretty sure amd was going to release a public mantle sdk at some point this year. So NV would be able to see and use the code from the sdk.  Unlike what NV is doing which is locking the code away from the eyes of devs and amd.

 

Also if enough devs deem Gameworks to be bad, then Gameworks will not be utilized by alot of devs.

[carolkarine]

Oh, and AMD is innocent?

Lol.

Elaborate please.

[ShiverMePenguins]

you guys are missing some of the picture. this isn't just about nvidia proprietary software (i.e. physx), its more about ability to program with and for specific hardware. amd tries to keep all of their tech and documents open source, so even if some indie or small dev company re-writes code efficiently or whatever, amd aknowledges it. with nvidia everything is so locked down, that you basically aren't allowed to know what you're programming with. thats like becoming a japanese teacher in japan without being allowed to learn fluent japanese.

 

 

nvidia locks down basic programming and basic features, that way they can control hardware advantages. so basically they have a choice to throttle their cards so you buy the nicer ones, or throttle competitors cards to give difference real world performance; this very likely happens with some companies, meaning developers have to take extra time to get stuff to work properly for amd. Hawken could be one such instance. when Hawken was in early beta days people had 7970's in x-fire and were getting worse framerate than those with 660ti's. its not amd's fault or anything like that. its because of locked down proprietary nonsense.

[GamerDude]

you guys are missing some of the picture. this isn't just about nvidia proprietary software (i.e. physx), its more about ability to program with and for specific hardware. amd tries to keep all of their tech and documents open source, so even if some indie or small dev company re-writes code efficiently or whatever, amd aknowledges it. with nvidia everything is so locked down, that you basically aren't allowed to know what you're programming with. thats like becoming a japanese teacher in japan without being allowed to learn fluent japanese.

 

 

nvidia locks down basic programming and basic features, that way they can control hardware advantages. so basically they have a choice to throttle their cards so you buy the nicer ones, or throttle competitors cards to give difference real world performance; this very likely happens with some companies, meaning developers have to take extra time to get stuff to work properly for amd. Hawken could be one such instance. when Hawken was in early beta days people had 7970's in x-fire and were getting worse framerate than those with 660ti's. its not amd's fault or anything like that. its because of locked down proprietary nonsense.

That is exactly it! Why doesn't everyone see that? Why do you think game devs, who fully understand what Gameworks is about, do not like what they see? They aren't allowed to optimized the game to run better on other hardware.....I am all for better hardware running a game better, but only if it is on a level playing field. Gameworks hobbles the competitors' hardware and does not allow game devs and AMD & Intel to optimize the game since nV holds the proverbial key. What is so good about that? Remember, competition is good, it keeps hardware prices 'real', have you forgotten how much nV was charging for their vanilla GTX780 BEFORE the R9 290 series was released? IF nV were the only gpu maker, do you honestly believe they would price their GPU's less of their own volition?

[Suika]

All of those inflated prices probably meant that more than a few gamers who were on the fence went Nvidia, and that was a little bit of a lost opportunity to get people into their ecosystem. It was a short term win, but it's arguable that it was a long term loss.

I'm actually with Nvidia right now because of the mining craze and its prices. I would have had an R9 280X or R9 290, but those prices...

Ultimately though, if Nvidia's marketing "tricks" keep up, I'll go AMD.

[LAwLz]

It is. I never said i hear it from a source or anything. Usually when someone states something without specifying a source then it is considered an opinion. But let's not argue over this. Back to arguing over NVIDIA and AMD

But you can't have an opinion if something is fact or not. You can say "my opinion is that the color of the sky is nice" but you can't say "my opinion is that the sky is green". That's not how facts work. What you were talking about was something that could be a fact, and you can therefore not say it is just an opinion. Opinions are about subjective things, not objective things. You can't have the opinion that DirectX contains code from Mantle. It either does or doesn't.

 

 

I'm pretty sure amd was going to release a public mantle sdk at some point this year. So NV would be able to see and use the code from the sdk.  Unlike what NV is doing which is locking the code away from the eyes of devs and amd.

That still doesn't make it open. By your logic, DirectX is open as well (which it most certainly is not). There is an SDK out for PhysX. Does that make PhysX open? Of course not, it's still proprietary and closed, just like Mantle.

By your logic that SDK == open, PhysX is more open than Mantle (in reality they are just as closed and proprietary as each other).

Again, I really don't understand where this strange idea that AMD is open comes from.